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If it is in Jetstar colours and on their AOC, carrying their passengers (i.e. not a wet lease), then of course.
AIPA couldn't stop it anyway, which airline QF give the aircraft to is their prerogative.
The aim of this push for unity is to prevent each party being played off against each other leading to UNDERCUTTING as has happened in the recent past.
Gee some of you are a bit slow!
AIPA couldn't stop it anyway, which airline QF give the aircraft to is their prerogative.
The aim of this push for unity is to prevent each party being played off against each other leading to UNDERCUTTING as has happened in the recent past.
Gee some of you are a bit slow!
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Led Zep,
If they would make that commitment would you consider getting onboard?
As Speedy said, AIPA doesn’t have the power to stop Qantas placing aircraft where they want. And what are these “interesting” positions you speak of from two years ago? Were they from the current AIPA team? I think most QF guys have expressed what we thought of the previous regimes’ handling of Jet*. Seeing you were in EK at the time I hope these are factual. Bear in mind it’s this sort of misinformation and creation of angst between pilot groups that management is trying to nurture and I’m afraid it seems to be working in your case. All the more reason to get our collective heads together. To put it bluntly what some bloke allegedly said two years+ ago is irrelevant at this juncture.
Nuf
If they would make that commitment would you consider getting onboard?
As Speedy said, AIPA doesn’t have the power to stop Qantas placing aircraft where they want. And what are these “interesting” positions you speak of from two years ago? Were they from the current AIPA team? I think most QF guys have expressed what we thought of the previous regimes’ handling of Jet*. Seeing you were in EK at the time I hope these are factual. Bear in mind it’s this sort of misinformation and creation of angst between pilot groups that management is trying to nurture and I’m afraid it seems to be working in your case. All the more reason to get our collective heads together. To put it bluntly what some bloke allegedly said two years+ ago is irrelevant at this juncture.
Nuf
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I don't think Genex actually want's anything to work out. Led Zep, how about it? Would you consider going along and seeing what's on offer? At the least you acn drink some beer paid for by QF guys.
Nunc est bibendum
Put it in writing? Like he has done on dozens of occasions previously? What more evidence do you need? The AIPA president has on a variety of forums put forward the position that sees J* crew get first access to their aircraft.
How about this one from as recently as four days ago.
This statement relates to the prospect of QF keeping all 787s under the one AOC- a possibility to reduce the duplication of resources across both arilines.
This is essentially saying that J* crew may be flying a red tail one day and a orange star the next. Same for QF crew....on LH conditions. Does that not guarantee J* crew access to the flying that orange tail aircraft? What he's also saying is that if J* have 30 787s and QF have 30 787s then we both have half the total pilot numbers and interleave them on a common seniority pile to determine who gets what flying. If J* have 40 and QF have 30 then the J* crew get more slots, etc, etc, etc.
I'm reminded of a bible passage that talks about not throwing pearls before swine. It's basically about not giving the good news to those that can't or won't even listen to reason. Part of me sees the attempts by the QF drivers on this thread as exactly that. The reason I keep persisting is that I'm hopeful that the constant line by the many QF drivers will finally quash the disinformation, dishonesty, and intellectual ignorance of those who are pushing the 'AIPA and QF drivers are bad guys' line.
How about this one from as recently as four days ago.
This statement relates to the prospect of QF keeping all 787s under the one AOC- a possibility to reduce the duplication of resources across both arilines.
... I believe that the AIPA COM would support the interleaving of 15 Jetstar B787 crews into Mainline 787 operations in the same way it did SH A330 crew? Again B787 allocation to Jetstar or Mainline could then be in accordance with market forces but both Jetstar and Mainline pilots would be on LH EBA 8 salaries.
I'm reminded of a bible passage that talks about not throwing pearls before swine. It's basically about not giving the good news to those that can't or won't even listen to reason. Part of me sees the attempts by the QF drivers on this thread as exactly that. The reason I keep persisting is that I'm hopeful that the constant line by the many QF drivers will finally quash the disinformation, dishonesty, and intellectual ignorance of those who are pushing the 'AIPA and QF drivers are bad guys' line.
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Keg-
You should have quoted the next paragraph:
"....*Should Qantas management not endorse either of the above, I believe the AIPA COM will be required by its membership to take action to have put in place a binding irrevocable agreement that mainline pilots will operate all B787's (other than the 15 B787's that current Qantas management have promised to Jetstar)."
Who's kidding who here?
You should have quoted the next paragraph:
"....*Should Qantas management not endorse either of the above, I believe the AIPA COM will be required by its membership to take action to have put in place a binding irrevocable agreement that mainline pilots will operate all B787's (other than the 15 B787's that current Qantas management have promised to Jetstar)."
Who's kidding who here?
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Zep,
The 787 is going to eventually replace the greater part of the QF fleet. Of course AIPA members are not going to take it lying down if they are not able to crew it on satisfactory terms and why would you expect them to.
THE WHOLE POINT OF A GROUP OPPORTUNITY LIST IS TO PREVENT THINGS FROM GETTING TO THIS POINT.
Not only that, but we also end up with a situation working to EVERYONES’ benefit where one group can’t be played off against another and we all share increased career path opportunities. It’s really quite simple. Please get to a road show if you can.
Regards,
Nuf.
The 787 is going to eventually replace the greater part of the QF fleet. Of course AIPA members are not going to take it lying down if they are not able to crew it on satisfactory terms and why would you expect them to.
THE WHOLE POINT OF A GROUP OPPORTUNITY LIST IS TO PREVENT THINGS FROM GETTING TO THIS POINT.
Not only that, but we also end up with a situation working to EVERYONES’ benefit where one group can’t be played off against another and we all share increased career path opportunities. It’s really quite simple. Please get to a road show if you can.
Regards,
Nuf.
Nunc est bibendum
Yup. The issue? Looks to me like he's guaranteeing those 787s to Jetstar and their crew! 
So much for QF drivers 'stealing' J* promotions! 
Given that you've read the comment on Qrewroom then it looks more and more like pearls before swine!
Nuf has it on the money.
So much for QF drivers 'stealing' J* promotions! Given that you've read the comment on Qrewroom then it looks more and more like pearls before swine! Nuf has it on the money.
Last edited by Keg; 27th Feb 2008 at 11:25.
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I'll translate the code in Nufs' last paragraph:
Not only that, but we also end up with a situation working to QF AIPA pilots EVERYONES’ benefit where one group can can’t be played off against another and QF AIPA pilots we all share increased career path opportunities. It’s really quite simple.
Yes - it is very simple. We have seen the written evidence above about how far AIPA will go to protect their positions - does anyone honestly think we will not be thrown to the lions in the event they don't get their way ?
I implore any Jetstar pilot to think very seriously about getting into bed with AIPA.
Not only that, but we also end up with a situation working to QF AIPA pilots EVERYONES’ benefit where one group can can’t be played off against another and QF AIPA pilots we all share increased career path opportunities. It’s really quite simple.
Yes - it is very simple. We have seen the written evidence above about how far AIPA will go to protect their positions - does anyone honestly think we will not be thrown to the lions in the event they don't get their way ?
I implore any Jetstar pilot to think very seriously about getting into bed with AIPA.
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I must say I think Led Zepp has hit the nail on the head. I have received the "good oil" directly from the AIPA president.
He believes in the GOAL but has made it quite clear that if QF and J* management do not agree with the GOAL then AIPA and its majority membership will do whatever it takes to ensure the 787 goes to QF. All perfectly understandable, but not necessarilly in the best interest of all the J* pilots that took the punt to make J* the success it has become. Why would they accept the AIPA's "generous" offer of only 15 787's when there is a significant likelihood of many more?
The president emphasised the number of experienced QF First officers and Second Officers that were all ready to asssist J* with its pilot shortage solution.
In the very long term I can see that the GOAL, if accepted by management, would be good for all Group pilots, but in the short term really only good for QF fo's and so's seeking quick promotion opportunities.
Maybe we should all be looking for the long term solution but I think the majority will be swayed by the short term.
To put "conditions" around the GOAL is not conducive to it getting up.
I think if AIPA want to have any success with the majority of J* pilots it should back the JPA's effort to get all J* pilots empoyed under the currently offerred EBA2008, then work together with the AFAP and the JPA for the long term good of all pilots in Australia.
He believes in the GOAL but has made it quite clear that if QF and J* management do not agree with the GOAL then AIPA and its majority membership will do whatever it takes to ensure the 787 goes to QF. All perfectly understandable, but not necessarilly in the best interest of all the J* pilots that took the punt to make J* the success it has become. Why would they accept the AIPA's "generous" offer of only 15 787's when there is a significant likelihood of many more?
The president emphasised the number of experienced QF First officers and Second Officers that were all ready to asssist J* with its pilot shortage solution.
In the very long term I can see that the GOAL, if accepted by management, would be good for all Group pilots, but in the short term really only good for QF fo's and so's seeking quick promotion opportunities.
Maybe we should all be looking for the long term solution but I think the majority will be swayed by the short term.
To put "conditions" around the GOAL is not conducive to it getting up.
I think if AIPA want to have any success with the majority of J* pilots it should back the JPA's effort to get all J* pilots empoyed under the currently offerred EBA2008, then work together with the AFAP and the JPA for the long term good of all pilots in Australia.
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LED, I have joined AIPA recently based on the merits and actions by the feds who have seemed to led the pilot group up the garden path very quickly and at what/whose expense?
The pilot group is all over the place thanks to the leadership shown by the JPA. The second vote has started. A Democratic society we all live in. Will it the best of 3 or 5?
The pilot group is all over the place thanks to the leadership shown by the JPA. The second vote has started. A Democratic society we all live in. Will it the best of 3 or 5?
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TFC, probably not. At least until what is on offer is voted on by the Jetstar pilots themselves. Until then you may have to rely upon your own enquiries through the interview process. Wait until Tuesday 4th March for more info.
FF,the last two lines has hit the nail on the head.The sooner we are ALL in one industrial organisation ALL working together,then for my money, the better.The time is now to claw back some lost ground but alas there is little chance of this whilst we are so fragmented.
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thanks TT yea heard a bit more this morning, I must comment from the outside looking in its a shame to see the pilot group so split. Im sure there is merit being in same union as Qantas Pilots or at least all together.
I have chatted with five highly experienced Airbus pilots recently, who, over the last few months have knocked back J* DEC's. Citing poor financials as the reason.
Is it true the Yarpies have been blocked due intense lobbying from AIPA? If so, my hats off to the long term vision of the QF guys.
Is it true the Yarpies have been blocked due intense lobbying from AIPA? If so, my hats off to the long term vision of the QF guys.
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I'm in regionals and the best thing I did was to join AIPA. I felt they had a lot more to offer than the AFAP and am extremely happy with them so far. They also won the right to cover all Qantas subsidiary pilots so why bother with the AFAP now? You Jetstar blokes really are deluding yourselves. Show some balls and give AIPA a go. Go to their Jetstar briefing tomorrow. Stop being so devisive and consider ALL the Qantas group pilots futures. 
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AULGLARSE - I understand how frustrated you and many others are with the Feds, however, joining the AIPA is NOT the answer at this point. There are far too many hidden agendas within AIPA to make an informed decision right now.
As a general scenario, were J* pilots to go to AIPA under its’ “Open Arms Policy”, lets look at how events would unfold in the event that AIPA felt they had to resort to the action quoted by me in red in a previous post.
The membership numbers of AIPA are way ahead of J*numbers now (J* ~ 450) , and even after 5 years when J* pilot numbers should be at some level over 1000 .
If the “membership” deal involves J* coming under an AIPA umbrella, what do you think is going to happen should AIPA COM vote to insist all 787 flying is done by mainline pilots. If this doesn’t become the hall mark of a fractured union, I don’t know what is. It will create so much animosity and anger that the situation will be unworkable. Members will be set against members as the AIPA “bit” seeks to remove flying from the J* side of the fence in order to get their way. AIPA “QF” members will be the majority and we will be left swinging in the wind. This after effectively paying AIPA membership fees that will ultimately advance the AIPA QF mainline pilots. What an insult.
Everyone should try and think this through on a longer term basis – The short term thinking is tempting but unrealistic.
The only fair way forward for J* pilots is to form their own association, in much the same way as (I think – but need to be corrected if I am wrong) the AN pilots did in the early 1990’s.
GNADENBURG – I can hardly see this as long term vision by the QF guys – more like short term myopia. Cheap talk about how you know so many pilots who have knocked back J* - so what; I know 4 who have accepted from the gulf. It’s irrelevant to this discussion.
EBD - I don't think their is any problem with regionals tying up with AIPA. You are no threat to AIPA COM. But we are in a VERY different position operating the same equipment as mainline with the distinct possibility of compromising mainline QF flying. I agree with you regarding the AFAP.
As a general scenario, were J* pilots to go to AIPA under its’ “Open Arms Policy”, lets look at how events would unfold in the event that AIPA felt they had to resort to the action quoted by me in red in a previous post.
The membership numbers of AIPA are way ahead of J*numbers now (J* ~ 450) , and even after 5 years when J* pilot numbers should be at some level over 1000 .
If the “membership” deal involves J* coming under an AIPA umbrella, what do you think is going to happen should AIPA COM vote to insist all 787 flying is done by mainline pilots. If this doesn’t become the hall mark of a fractured union, I don’t know what is. It will create so much animosity and anger that the situation will be unworkable. Members will be set against members as the AIPA “bit” seeks to remove flying from the J* side of the fence in order to get their way. AIPA “QF” members will be the majority and we will be left swinging in the wind. This after effectively paying AIPA membership fees that will ultimately advance the AIPA QF mainline pilots. What an insult.
Everyone should try and think this through on a longer term basis – The short term thinking is tempting but unrealistic.
The only fair way forward for J* pilots is to form their own association, in much the same way as (I think – but need to be corrected if I am wrong) the AN pilots did in the early 1990’s.
GNADENBURG – I can hardly see this as long term vision by the QF guys – more like short term myopia. Cheap talk about how you know so many pilots who have knocked back J* - so what; I know 4 who have accepted from the gulf. It’s irrelevant to this discussion.
EBD - I don't think their is any problem with regionals tying up with AIPA. You are no threat to AIPA COM. But we are in a VERY different position operating the same equipment as mainline with the distinct possibility of compromising mainline QF flying. I agree with you regarding the AFAP.