One pilot union......a step closer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lacemba!
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One pilot union......a step closer
From another forum
Today, in a unanimous decision, the Full Bench of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission awarded the Australian and International Pilots Association constitutional coverage of all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group. The Full Bench was constituted by SDP Acton, DP Ives and Commissioner Blair and consented to the alteration of the eligibility rules of AIPA by inserting the following new paragraph:
Up until now AIPA’s coverage was predominantly Qantas long haul and short haul pilots and did not include Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.
AIPA Solicitor Tony Macken of A. J. Macken & Co., said the decision modernised the industrial coverage of Australian airline pilots - the legal position has now caught up with the industrial reality. AIPA is in a position to provide coverage and representation for all Qantas Group pilots. The Full Bench decision varied the decision of SDP Kaufman in minor respects but substantially reaffirmed its core findings.
Today, in a unanimous decision, the Full Bench of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission awarded the Australian and International Pilots Association constitutional coverage of all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group. The Full Bench was constituted by SDP Acton, DP Ives and Commissioner Blair and consented to the alteration of the eligibility rules of AIPA by inserting the following new paragraph:
“Without in any way limiting the generality of any other provision of this rule or being limited thereby, all persons who are normally employed as pilots on airline services within or extending beyond the Commonwealth of Australia operated in whole or part and under any name by any of:
(i) Qantas Airways Limited ABN 16 009 661 901;
(ii) Qantas Limited ABN 73 003 613 465;
(iii) Australian Airlines Limited ABN 85 099 625 304;
(iv) Jetstar Airways Pty Limited ABN 33 069 720 243;
(v) Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Limited ABN 77 001 599 024; or
(vi) Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Limited ABN 82 009 734 703
shall be eligible for membership in the Organisation (AIPA).”
Affirming an earlier decision of SDP Kaufman which had been appealed by Qantas and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots, the Full Bench extended AIPA’s coverage to Jetstar and the Qantas Regional airlines. The alteration will come into effect on 2 January 2008. (i) Qantas Airways Limited ABN 16 009 661 901;
(ii) Qantas Limited ABN 73 003 613 465;
(iii) Australian Airlines Limited ABN 85 099 625 304;
(iv) Jetstar Airways Pty Limited ABN 33 069 720 243;
(v) Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Limited ABN 77 001 599 024; or
(vi) Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Limited ABN 82 009 734 703
shall be eligible for membership in the Organisation (AIPA).”
Up until now AIPA’s coverage was predominantly Qantas long haul and short haul pilots and did not include Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.
AIPA Solicitor Tony Macken of A. J. Macken & Co., said the decision modernised the industrial coverage of Australian airline pilots - the legal position has now caught up with the industrial reality. AIPA is in a position to provide coverage and representation for all Qantas Group pilots. The Full Bench decision varied the decision of SDP Kaufman in minor respects but substantially reaffirmed its core findings.
Metrosexual
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Enroute
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're not getting worried about when you de-mob are ya PAF???
See how far you get when you deal with big companies as a 'solitary man'!
I suppose you will go for civil employment and shun all the benefits like a safe working environment, holidays, super, a reasonable wage that were all hard fought and won by unions and their members.
Have fun on 5cents and hour sweeping chimneys - or maybe you're just God's gift to the world's prospective employers???
See how far you get when you deal with big companies as a 'solitary man'!
I suppose you will go for civil employment and shun all the benefits like a safe working environment, holidays, super, a reasonable wage that were all hard fought and won by unions and their members.
Have fun on 5cents and hour sweeping chimneys - or maybe you're just God's gift to the world's prospective employers???
P-A-F,
You really are out of touch...you have absolutely no idea what we are up against with QF Management. So sorry your little mate Johnny Howard has gone, the mourning period must almost be over though.
As a proud AIPA member I welcome any Qantas Group pilot with open arms. I can't see why anyone would bother with AFAP anymore - a pissweak organisation at best.
GetOffMyBack,
Any self respecting JQ pilot would surely want to earn the same coin as a QF pilot, flying the same metal (A330), on the same routes (i.e. Japan/Asia) for effectively the same company. One union representing everyone is a step closer to achieving this IMHO.
TL
You really are out of touch...you have absolutely no idea what we are up against with QF Management. So sorry your little mate Johnny Howard has gone, the mourning period must almost be over though.
As a proud AIPA member I welcome any Qantas Group pilot with open arms. I can't see why anyone would bother with AFAP anymore - a pissweak organisation at best.
GetOffMyBack,
Any self respecting JQ pilot would surely want to earn the same coin as a QF pilot, flying the same metal (A330), on the same routes (i.e. Japan/Asia) for effectively the same company. One union representing everyone is a step closer to achieving this IMHO.
TL
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not joining them....ever. They left the AFAP years back to look after themselves and haven't changed. They can't accept that the days of lazy big slothful legacy carriers are gone and to take JQ back into the QF bad old ways of T & C and huge training chains would kill both.
AIPA is useful as a retirement group to plan reunions for former QF 744 drivers. Not much else.
AIPA is useful as a retirement group to plan reunions for former QF 744 drivers. Not much else.
Nunc est bibendum
genex, the number of pilots were were part of the AFAP overseas branch who left to become AIPA would number under 200 of the 2500ish QF drivers. My read is that AIPA has moved on considerably from that time.
'Bad old ways of T & C'? You obviously don't believe in getting paid a decent amount!
Not a high quality post to rate going through the hassle of a new profile!
'Bad old ways of T & C'? You obviously don't believe in getting paid a decent amount!
Not a high quality post to rate going through the hassle of a new profile!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg,
I know you mean well and you have your perspective but make absolutely no mistake, Virgin and Tiger will be the ONLY winners if QF T&C (including all the "Legacy" stuff that goes with them) get imposed on JQ. AIPA has no natural constituency, capability, committment or commonality of purpose with the LCC world where Jetstar takes the fight (on behalf of the Group) to other LCCs, international airlines, bus-lines and every other outtfit competing for pirce and value sensitive dicretionary spending. And nor should AIPA have a franchise in the LCC world...they support very well the current Qantas culture and business.....its just that that's not the way the rest of the world is going.
AIPA's best role model is that of caretaker at a museum...and they do it well. They can also organize reunions for retired 744 drivers. But that's all. Every pilots dream is that there be lots of jobs. And the big white Rat is not where thats at.
As for taking the time to create a new profile....well it was either that or start playing with razor blades as I contemplate the job losses ahead for Australia pilots if AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar.
I know you mean well and you have your perspective but make absolutely no mistake, Virgin and Tiger will be the ONLY winners if QF T&C (including all the "Legacy" stuff that goes with them) get imposed on JQ. AIPA has no natural constituency, capability, committment or commonality of purpose with the LCC world where Jetstar takes the fight (on behalf of the Group) to other LCCs, international airlines, bus-lines and every other outtfit competing for pirce and value sensitive dicretionary spending. And nor should AIPA have a franchise in the LCC world...they support very well the current Qantas culture and business.....its just that that's not the way the rest of the world is going.
AIPA's best role model is that of caretaker at a museum...and they do it well. They can also organize reunions for retired 744 drivers. But that's all. Every pilots dream is that there be lots of jobs. And the big white Rat is not where thats at.
As for taking the time to create a new profile....well it was either that or start playing with razor blades as I contemplate the job losses ahead for Australia pilots if AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lacemba!
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genex
"As for taking the time to create a new profile....well it was either that or start playing with razor blades as I contemplate the job losses ahead for Australia pilots if AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar".
Why would AIPA want that, I am fairly junior and as a member of AIPA I would be horrified if AIPA's intention was to do so. Many a junior member would look at early upgrades in Jetstar if that was available as I would hope if Jetstar guys wanted a change to come across to Mainline. At the end of the day it's not too unrealistic to see the two much closer together. This is why having a win to legally represent the whole group is so critical. Everyone that says well they did this back then and that's why i wouldn't trust him or her is just living in the dark ages, sure history has a way of repeating itself but at present we all have a unique opportunity to make some real improvements due to the skills demand. Some vision and leadership is now critical to get the improvements that the whole group needs to restore confidence in the career's of all Qf group pilots and I would hope that the first step to getting those results comes from new members appreciating the need for a collective voice and AIPA having a flatter representitive structure to enable a better cross-section for policy making. It's gotta start somewhere otherwise it will be holding patterns till the fuel runs out.
"As for taking the time to create a new profile....well it was either that or start playing with razor blades as I contemplate the job losses ahead for Australia pilots if AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar".
Why would AIPA want that, I am fairly junior and as a member of AIPA I would be horrified if AIPA's intention was to do so. Many a junior member would look at early upgrades in Jetstar if that was available as I would hope if Jetstar guys wanted a change to come across to Mainline. At the end of the day it's not too unrealistic to see the two much closer together. This is why having a win to legally represent the whole group is so critical. Everyone that says well they did this back then and that's why i wouldn't trust him or her is just living in the dark ages, sure history has a way of repeating itself but at present we all have a unique opportunity to make some real improvements due to the skills demand. Some vision and leadership is now critical to get the improvements that the whole group needs to restore confidence in the career's of all Qf group pilots and I would hope that the first step to getting those results comes from new members appreciating the need for a collective voice and AIPA having a flatter representitive structure to enable a better cross-section for policy making. It's gotta start somewhere otherwise it will be holding patterns till the fuel runs out.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: messemate way to bondi icebergs
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Genex........................ Why do J* pilots deserve lower wages. The proven REAL (No help from established legacy carrier) LCC is southwest airlines. They have the best paid 737 drivers in the world. Why will AIPA create less employment opportunities? Sounds like Coalition scaremongering
. My mates at J* deserve better pay and conditions than what the JPC have given them so far.
As far as Easterns and Sunnys. Anyone currently there won't be affected (goo or bad) by the joining AIPA cause after Jan 2 they'll all be elsewhere. - last one out turn off the lights
. My mates at J* deserve better pay and conditions than what the JPC have given them so far. As far as Easterns and Sunnys. Anyone currently there won't be affected (goo or bad) by the joining AIPA cause after Jan 2 they'll all be elsewhere. - last one out turn off the lights
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: AUS
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have no problem with anyone attempting to raise the bar as far as industry conditions go.
However, I hold a great deal of scepticism with regards to AIPA's attempts to gain control of the Jetstar membership.
Who are and always will be the majority of AIPA?
Who controls AIPA?
Prior to Jetstar, what interest did AIPA display in furthering the conditions of Qantas 'Group' pilots?
How were the Australian Airlines pilots treated by AIPA post the QF take-over of that airline?
What is AIPA's REAL motive?
I would put to the readers that AIPA is engaged in a thinly veiled attempt to remove Jetstar pilots from widebody cockpits and replace them with QF pilots. Jetstar International is the real pain in the -400 pilots side as it could eventually threaten even their T's and C's.
Contrary to Genex, I beleive AIPA understand's the need for domestic LCC's, they do not pose a threat to the final career destination of the majority of AIPA members, however, JQI is a major threat, particularly as the advent of the 787 presents AIPA with a diabolical challenge to secure seats and promotions.
In the TN takeover AIPA sought to marginalise the TN pilots onto the 737, to the point that when the AO A300's were retired they were replaced by B767's crewed by Q list pilots. At one stage this threatened redundancies from the A list. Many A list F/O's did over 10 years in the 737 before command whilst Q list crewed 767's took over more and more domestic flying, with many rapid promotions for Q listers (many are the current AIPA leadership). Eventually the A330's provided for some A list movement.
How did this come about? AIPA at its best, protecting its core membership. AIPA does this well, QF B744 and A330 pilots are some of the better paid by world standards, AUD$220k plus plus is good money for an F/O on a B744.
From a commercial perspective, even if AIPA gains a majority of Regional and Jetstar membership, it will take a considerable length of time to recoup the costs of winning this coverage case. Very altruistic, but again I see other motives.
Why am I sceptical you ask? Its not that Leopards may not WANT to change their spots - they simply cannot.
However, I hold a great deal of scepticism with regards to AIPA's attempts to gain control of the Jetstar membership.
Who are and always will be the majority of AIPA?
Who controls AIPA?
Prior to Jetstar, what interest did AIPA display in furthering the conditions of Qantas 'Group' pilots?
How were the Australian Airlines pilots treated by AIPA post the QF take-over of that airline?
What is AIPA's REAL motive?
I would put to the readers that AIPA is engaged in a thinly veiled attempt to remove Jetstar pilots from widebody cockpits and replace them with QF pilots. Jetstar International is the real pain in the -400 pilots side as it could eventually threaten even their T's and C's.
Contrary to Genex, I beleive AIPA understand's the need for domestic LCC's, they do not pose a threat to the final career destination of the majority of AIPA members, however, JQI is a major threat, particularly as the advent of the 787 presents AIPA with a diabolical challenge to secure seats and promotions.
In the TN takeover AIPA sought to marginalise the TN pilots onto the 737, to the point that when the AO A300's were retired they were replaced by B767's crewed by Q list pilots. At one stage this threatened redundancies from the A list. Many A list F/O's did over 10 years in the 737 before command whilst Q list crewed 767's took over more and more domestic flying, with many rapid promotions for Q listers (many are the current AIPA leadership). Eventually the A330's provided for some A list movement.
How did this come about? AIPA at its best, protecting its core membership. AIPA does this well, QF B744 and A330 pilots are some of the better paid by world standards, AUD$220k plus plus is good money for an F/O on a B744.
From a commercial perspective, even if AIPA gains a majority of Regional and Jetstar membership, it will take a considerable length of time to recoup the costs of winning this coverage case. Very altruistic, but again I see other motives.
Why am I sceptical you ask? Its not that Leopards may not WANT to change their spots - they simply cannot.
Last edited by VH-JJW; 21st Dec 2007 at 04:34.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JJW, you make several references to Australian Airlines ( the original one) as AO. Anyone who has been around longer than 5mins knows the correct designation for that airline was TN.
AIPA was extremely generous with the TN pilots, agreeing to the Y list which gave them future opportunities that they would never have had, if Qantas hadn't bought the airline.
As for your assertion that AIPA's motive for coverage is to remove Jetstar pilots from wide body cockpits, well thats just laughable. Anyone who thinks that will happen is far removed from reality.
Are you suggesting the JPC have furthered the interests of JQI pilots, with that third rate agreement they're on?
AIPA was extremely generous with the TN pilots, agreeing to the Y list which gave them future opportunities that they would never have had, if Qantas hadn't bought the airline.
As for your assertion that AIPA's motive for coverage is to remove Jetstar pilots from wide body cockpits, well thats just laughable. Anyone who thinks that will happen is far removed from reality.
Are you suggesting the JPC have furthered the interests of JQI pilots, with that third rate agreement they're on?
What is AIPA's REAL motive?
Industrially, each pilot group will negotiate for their terms and conditions but will have the full industrial experience of AIPA to assist them in their negotiations so you won'r get mainline interfering with J*,Eastern, Sunstate negotiations. They'll just have more support than they have had in the past.
In the AO takeover AIPA sought to marginalise the AO pilots onto the 737, to the point that when the AO A300's were retired they were replaced by B767's crewed by Q list pilots. At one stage this threatened redundancies from the A list. Many A list F/O's did over 10 years in the 737 before command whilst Q list crewed 767's took over more and more domestic flying, with many rapid promotions for Q listers (many are the current AIPA leadership). Eventually the A330's provided for some A list movement.
AIPA did not shaft the TN pilots and only has respect for the J8, Eastern and Sunstate pilots. They will only end up with better T's & C's as well as career prospects if they join forces against Dixon & Oldmeadow.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: AUS
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reeltime - you are quite correct, it was TN, post edited to correct.
The 'Y' was very effective at segregating the TN pilot group. There is no point debating with you about the fairness of the agreement. I would consider it quite fair if I was Q list too!
I agree that the JPC struck a very poor deal on the widebody. Are you suggesting that AIPA would have negotiated THEM a better one?
The 'Y' was very effective at segregating the TN pilot group. There is no point debating with you about the fairness of the agreement. I would consider it quite fair if I was Q list too!
I agree that the JPC struck a very poor deal on the widebody. Are you suggesting that AIPA would have negotiated THEM a better one?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Gold Coast
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genex sounds like some of the pilots I have to fly with. They will tell you all flight how our wages have to be low and conditions not like the big carriers.
Brain washed big time.
Then after their 7 or 8 minute brief for landing ( by which time they have put me to sleep)they will tell me how AJ has to have big wage rises or he will go some where else and he is really good for Jetstar.
Brain washed big time.
Then after their 7 or 8 minute brief for landing ( by which time they have put me to sleep)they will tell me how AJ has to have big wage rises or he will go some where else and he is really good for Jetstar.