Flightwatch – 27 VHF outlets being closed
Who is to be the 'paying customer' to an 'outside' organisation?
Who is going to part with $$$'s for the provision of FIS, which most pilots / organisations have learned to live without - by now?
Really....
Who is going to part with $$$'s for the provision of FIS, which most pilots / organisations have learned to live without - by now?
Really....
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Griff,
I did na say that paying customers would fork out the $$$....
I reckon that SpaceWreck Services are that stupid that they would actually pay an external provider.
I did na say that paying customers would fork out the $$$....
I reckon that SpaceWreck Services are that stupid that they would actually pay an external provider.
Ah, Mr 'S',
I can see it now.... A 'RERUN' of that particular memo put out to STAFF at the time...
In order to reduce the number of Services, and therefore, the number of FSO's, one 'P.E.' put out the memo containing the words...
"It is planned to 'Introduce a pricing regime to discourage participation'....."
It took all of 5 seconds to work out what THAT meant!!
Figures were even suggested...
$5, or was it $10 (?), to lodge or cancel a SARTIME by radio from a location where tel facilities were avbl.
The same for the lodging of a Flight Plan.....IFR may have been more....
etc etc.
Most pilots would only do THAT once.
I can see it now.... A 'RERUN' of that particular memo put out to STAFF at the time...
In order to reduce the number of Services, and therefore, the number of FSO's, one 'P.E.' put out the memo containing the words...
"It is planned to 'Introduce a pricing regime to discourage participation'....."
It took all of 5 seconds to work out what THAT meant!!
Figures were even suggested...
$5, or was it $10 (?), to lodge or cancel a SARTIME by radio from a location where tel facilities were avbl.
The same for the lodging of a Flight Plan.....IFR may have been more....
etc etc.
Most pilots would only do THAT once.
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Hello.
Is there any Flightwatch in there?
Just nod if you can hear me.
Is there anyone home?
Relax.
I need some information first.
Just the basic facts,
Can you tell me on Six Megahertz?
There is no rain, you are in sleeting.
A SIGMET looms on the horizon.
You are only coming through in waves.
Your lips move but I can’t hear what you say.
When I was an FSO I had a fever.
My headset felt just like lead weight.
Now I got that feeling once again.
I can’t explain, you would not understand.
This is not how I am.
I have become comfortably numb.
Ok.
Just a little AIP…SUP. [ping]
There’ll be no more --aaaaaahhhhh!
And you won’t hear the faintest click
Can you stand up?
I do believe its working. Good.
That’ll keep you going thru the snow.
Come on its time to go.
There is no rain, you are in sleeting.
A Virgin ship asks for the last light.
You are only coming through in waves.
Your lips move but I can’t hear what you’re sayin.
There was the clock I caught a fleeting glimpse,
Out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone.
I cannot put my finger on it now.
Its Eight O’Clock, Flightwatch is gone.
I have become comfortably numb.
Is there any Flightwatch in there?
Just nod if you can hear me.
Is there anyone home?
Relax.
I need some information first.
Just the basic facts,
Can you tell me on Six Megahertz?
There is no rain, you are in sleeting.
A SIGMET looms on the horizon.
You are only coming through in waves.
Your lips move but I can’t hear what you say.
When I was an FSO I had a fever.
My headset felt just like lead weight.
Now I got that feeling once again.
I can’t explain, you would not understand.
This is not how I am.
I have become comfortably numb.
Ok.
Just a little AIP…SUP. [ping]
There’ll be no more --aaaaaahhhhh!
And you won’t hear the faintest click
Can you stand up?
I do believe its working. Good.
That’ll keep you going thru the snow.
Come on its time to go.
There is no rain, you are in sleeting.
A Virgin ship asks for the last light.
You are only coming through in waves.
Your lips move but I can’t hear what you’re sayin.
There was the clock I caught a fleeting glimpse,
Out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone.
I cannot put my finger on it now.
Its Eight O’Clock, Flightwatch is gone.
I have become comfortably numb.
Watch little Sunfish screw up the area frequency if things don't go according to plan and I start asking for assistance........
I ain't going to go quietly. I've only needed flightwatch twice, but when I've needed it, i've needed it.
I ain't going to go quietly. I've only needed flightwatch twice, but when I've needed it, i've needed it.
So 'Mr S',
Wot's the goss??
Is it TRUE that ATCers are to be trained in the 'vagaries' of HF after all...?
Will the last one 'out' kindly turn off the lights??
p.s. reading you weak.....apols to our 'northern neighbours'....
Wot's the goss??
Is it TRUE that ATCers are to be trained in the 'vagaries' of HF after all...?
Will the last one 'out' kindly turn off the lights??
p.s. reading you weak.....apols to our 'northern neighbours'....
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The debacle continues
Just when you think it can't get any worse with Aircircuses Australia, I note that they are even more short of staff tonight
C4298/08 REVIEW C4297/08
DISCRETE FLIGHTWATCH VHF AND DOMESTIC HF NOT AVBL
THIRD PARTY AERONAUTICAL MOBILE COMMUNICATIONS FIS AND INFLIGHT
EMERGENCY RESPONSE ON DISCRETE FLIGHTWATCH VHF AND DOMESTIC HF AS PER
ERSA GEN-FIS NOT AVBL DUE STAFF SHORTAGE
SERVICES ARE AVBL ON FIA FREQUENCIES
FROM 07 151500 TO 07 151815
0807151500 TO 0807151545
0807151730 TO 0807151815
As noted by Slugfest elsewhere, this is not the first outage of Flightwatch and it won't be the last
(ps good to see you back from the sinbin Slug)
Jamit
C4298/08 REVIEW C4297/08
DISCRETE FLIGHTWATCH VHF AND DOMESTIC HF NOT AVBL
THIRD PARTY AERONAUTICAL MOBILE COMMUNICATIONS FIS AND INFLIGHT
EMERGENCY RESPONSE ON DISCRETE FLIGHTWATCH VHF AND DOMESTIC HF AS PER
ERSA GEN-FIS NOT AVBL DUE STAFF SHORTAGE
SERVICES ARE AVBL ON FIA FREQUENCIES
FROM 07 151500 TO 07 151815
0807151500 TO 0807151545
0807151730 TO 0807151815
As noted by Slugfest elsewhere, this is not the first outage of Flightwatch and it won't be the last
(ps good to see you back from the sinbin Slug)
Jamit
More importantly (my bolding):
Wasn't there supposed to be a review earlier this year to determine whether this stage was to continue or not?
TRIGGER NOTAM - AIP SUP H88/07
ON-REQUEST IN FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE - STAGE 3 AVBL FM AVFAX CODE 815XX AND AIRSERVICES WEBSITE Aeronautical Information Package ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
AMEND PARA 5.1 TO READ THIS SUP WILL REMAIN CURRENT UNTIL THE TRANSITION OF VHF FLIGHTWATCH FUNCTION FROM AUSFIC TO ATC IS COMPLETE. (EXPECTED SEPTEMBER 2008
FROM 07 110224 TO 09 300100 EST
ON-REQUEST IN FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE - STAGE 3 AVBL FM AVFAX CODE 815XX AND AIRSERVICES WEBSITE Aeronautical Information Package ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
AMEND PARA 5.1 TO READ THIS SUP WILL REMAIN CURRENT UNTIL THE TRANSITION OF VHF FLIGHTWATCH FUNCTION FROM AUSFIC TO ATC IS COMPLETE. (EXPECTED SEPTEMBER 2008
FROM 07 110224 TO 09 300100 EST
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Interesting about the arguements on staff numbers that ATC are down.
TFN says 17, Civil Air say 90 odd - I don't know who to believe really.
Taking worst case??; lets say that ATCs are down 100 out of a requirement of 900. Thats only an 11.1% shortfall.
Yes I know, half are oldies about to retire etc etc etc but there is an old age profile across all the organisation.
So here is my point, my spying sources in the ausfic say that they are down 18+% down and most of that is directly attributable TFN's redundancy cleanout.
Last one out please turn off the lights....
TFN says 17, Civil Air say 90 odd - I don't know who to believe really.
Taking worst case??; lets say that ATCs are down 100 out of a requirement of 900. Thats only an 11.1% shortfall.
Yes I know, half are oldies about to retire etc etc etc but there is an old age profile across all the organisation.
So here is my point, my spying sources in the ausfic say that they are down 18+% down and most of that is directly attributable TFN's redundancy cleanout.
Last one out please turn off the lights....
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Captain Midnight,
The NOTAM you refer to was issued because the "Flightwatch to ATC" project forgot to update all the charts, AIP, ERSA etc effective June 08. Someone noticed the inconsistency (ie the AIP SUP had cancelled but ATC were still providing ex Flightwatch FIS), so a NOTAM had to be published to reactivate the AIP SUP till the charts etc are fixed.
A bit embarrasing really, but what else can you expect at the moment!!
The NOTAM you refer to was issued because the "Flightwatch to ATC" project forgot to update all the charts, AIP, ERSA etc effective June 08. Someone noticed the inconsistency (ie the AIP SUP had cancelled but ATC were still providing ex Flightwatch FIS), so a NOTAM had to be published to reactivate the AIP SUP till the charts etc are fixed.
A bit embarrasing really, but what else can you expect at the moment!!
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Flightwatch VHF now really gooooorne
Dick,
Despite your actions last year, I'm informed that Airservices has resumed its intention to close the Flightwatch VHF on 27 August 2009. One of my old mates was at a recent RAPAC where this was stated by an Airservices representative.
Apparently the external to TAAATS "FIS" service will still be available on HF for those who have it. Otherwise pilots will have to ask for FIS on the ATC area frequency. (If the controller has time)
Regards
AusFICer
Despite your actions last year, I'm informed that Airservices has resumed its intention to close the Flightwatch VHF on 27 August 2009. One of my old mates was at a recent RAPAC where this was stated by an Airservices representative.
Apparently the external to TAAATS "FIS" service will still be available on HF for those who have it. Otherwise pilots will have to ask for FIS on the ATC area frequency. (If the controller has time)
Regards
AusFICer
Well well.......
Seems like the 'Honeymoon' is over and 'tis time to get 'that' wheel turnin' agin.....
The 'Final Demise' is in the wings.(?)
What a debacle!!
From 12/12/91 - when you-know-who decided HE didn't want 'Good Ole FS' anymore. We cost too much - apparently - till now!
Well, what are you left with now?
And are you paying any LESS???
(In TOTAL fees and charges....I know the fuel tax is gone!
But which was better??)
"Your Safety Will Be Enhanced and It Will Cost You Less".........Remember??
That's....
C orporate
R ehash of
A cronym
P latitudes
"Service will be available for those that have HF".....
Have you really tried calling on HF since the 'automated signal strength
gizzmo' has been installed - like - the operator has no way of selecting the better signal by judicious selection of the limited controls he/she used to have - it is supposedly done 'automatically' now - and the signal is either heard or it is not! That's PROGRESS!!!!
It is thought by some that this multi $$$ automated 'system' was introduced so that it would be 'just like VHF to select/operate', and therefore useable by ATC at an ATC console without any further training in the vagaries of HF, thereby allowing remaining FS staff to be dispensed with.......
"When workload permits" is something you are going to hear a lot more of - I would venture.....
p.s. Thanks again for the redundo Dick......
Cheers to all....
Seems like the 'Honeymoon' is over and 'tis time to get 'that' wheel turnin' agin.....
The 'Final Demise' is in the wings.(?)
What a debacle!!
From 12/12/91 - when you-know-who decided HE didn't want 'Good Ole FS' anymore. We cost too much - apparently - till now!
Well, what are you left with now?
And are you paying any LESS???
(In TOTAL fees and charges....I know the fuel tax is gone!
But which was better??)
"Your Safety Will Be Enhanced and It Will Cost You Less".........Remember??
That's....
C orporate
R ehash of
A cronym
P latitudes
"Service will be available for those that have HF".....
Have you really tried calling on HF since the 'automated signal strength
gizzmo' has been installed - like - the operator has no way of selecting the better signal by judicious selection of the limited controls he/she used to have - it is supposedly done 'automatically' now - and the signal is either heard or it is not! That's PROGRESS!!!!
It is thought by some that this multi $$$ automated 'system' was introduced so that it would be 'just like VHF to select/operate', and therefore useable by ATC at an ATC console without any further training in the vagaries of HF, thereby allowing remaining FS staff to be dispensed with.......
"When workload permits" is something you are going to hear a lot more of - I would venture.....
p.s. Thanks again for the redundo Dick......
Cheers to all....
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 20th May 2009 at 03:08.
Thread Starter
Ex FSO GRIFFO, what rubbish. The AMATS document clearly showed that there would be two automated Flight Service stations in Australia, with many VHF outlets across the country – just like the US system.
Under the Review of Resources – and Flight Service was part of this – staff numbers went from 7,000 to about 3,500. Do you really consider that this hasn’t been a saving to the industry? In fact, there is no doubt that the industry saved over $1 billion in the last 17 years.
I have always believed that we should have a separate Flight Service system in the same way as the USA and Canada. Whilst I want air traffic controllers to offer a radar service where radar is available, I’ve always wanted a separate system for weather, flight plan opening and closing etc.
There are no proposals in the USA under NAS to close down their VHF Flight Service system – even though it has been contracted out to a non-government entity.
The latest decision means that air traffic controllers who are responsible for separating traffic will also be giving weather information and accepting flight plans. This is obviously a crock. I would say it is all about Airservices increasing its profits and CASA not doing its job.
Under the Review of Resources – and Flight Service was part of this – staff numbers went from 7,000 to about 3,500. Do you really consider that this hasn’t been a saving to the industry? In fact, there is no doubt that the industry saved over $1 billion in the last 17 years.
I have always believed that we should have a separate Flight Service system in the same way as the USA and Canada. Whilst I want air traffic controllers to offer a radar service where radar is available, I’ve always wanted a separate system for weather, flight plan opening and closing etc.
There are no proposals in the USA under NAS to close down their VHF Flight Service system – even though it has been contracted out to a non-government entity.
The latest decision means that air traffic controllers who are responsible for separating traffic will also be giving weather information and accepting flight plans. This is obviously a crock. I would say it is all about Airservices increasing its profits and CASA not doing its job.
The trouble with technology is that without careful analysis, there can be unintended consequences....
Let me tell you a cautionary tale from the marine industry....
Many years ago ships carried radio operators. It was required by law for safety.
Along came Satellite communications, GPS and digital HF receivers.
A bright boffin invented "Digital Selective calling" - a dedicated frequency where digital broadcasts can be made containg formatted information, like the fact that you were sinking and your lat./Lon.
The ship owners thought this was a wonderful idea and the regulations were changed. The radio operators were fired and replaced by a big red "Emergency" button for the skipper to push if things got dangerous, and it broadcast a "Mayday" and your location to every ship that could hear you.
As soon as this was implemented, guess what? The alarm kept going off as your radio asked you to acknowledge a Mayday call by a ship a thousand miles away that you had no chance of helping.
Furthermore, without a dedicated radio operator, the crews decided that monitoring radios was a waste of time. Try calling a ship on VHF in the open ocean - you will not get a reply 99% of the time.
Then this technology was put into VHF marine sets and advertised to the local boaters for $400. Guess what? Not even the mighty U.S. Coastguard will monitor DSC because every idiot who runs out of fuel or gets a fish hook stuck in his arm punches the red button.
Australia closed down all but Two of its Coastal radio stations because of all this new technology.
So now when I am at sea and something goes wrong for me, what do I do? Is there a friendly voice I can call up who knows the sea, has the emergency services at the tip of his finger, and with whom I can discuss my predicament and what to do about it? Nope.
...All I have is my EPIRB, so the response to my emergency is not going to be graded according to its immediacy or severity, it's one size fits all.
You might like to think about that, and as I said before.
If GA is provided with no service, and the response to requests for information is "eff off", then I predict you are going to start seeing massive disobedience of all sorts of rules.
Let me tell you a cautionary tale from the marine industry....
Many years ago ships carried radio operators. It was required by law for safety.
Along came Satellite communications, GPS and digital HF receivers.
A bright boffin invented "Digital Selective calling" - a dedicated frequency where digital broadcasts can be made containg formatted information, like the fact that you were sinking and your lat./Lon.
The ship owners thought this was a wonderful idea and the regulations were changed. The radio operators were fired and replaced by a big red "Emergency" button for the skipper to push if things got dangerous, and it broadcast a "Mayday" and your location to every ship that could hear you.
As soon as this was implemented, guess what? The alarm kept going off as your radio asked you to acknowledge a Mayday call by a ship a thousand miles away that you had no chance of helping.
Furthermore, without a dedicated radio operator, the crews decided that monitoring radios was a waste of time. Try calling a ship on VHF in the open ocean - you will not get a reply 99% of the time.
Then this technology was put into VHF marine sets and advertised to the local boaters for $400. Guess what? Not even the mighty U.S. Coastguard will monitor DSC because every idiot who runs out of fuel or gets a fish hook stuck in his arm punches the red button.
Australia closed down all but Two of its Coastal radio stations because of all this new technology.
So now when I am at sea and something goes wrong for me, what do I do? Is there a friendly voice I can call up who knows the sea, has the emergency services at the tip of his finger, and with whom I can discuss my predicament and what to do about it? Nope.
...All I have is my EPIRB, so the response to my emergency is not going to be graded according to its immediacy or severity, it's one size fits all.
You might like to think about that, and as I said before.
If GA is provided with no service, and the response to requests for information is "eff off", then I predict you are going to start seeing massive disobedience of all sorts of rules.
So now when I am at sea and something goes wrong for me, what do I do? Is there a friendly voice I can call up who knows the sea, has the emergency services at the tip of his finger, and with whom I can discuss my predicament and what to do about it? Nope.
To complete your marine analogy. Limited coast radio stations...VMR/Sea Rescue groups fill the gap. Unpaid volunteers who hold raffles to raise funds and get limited financial help from state governments and lottery funds.
So perhaps this is where AsA wants us to go.
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They are already doing it
Airmedical services in the outback are being provided "on the cheap" by the RFDS which raises lots of money from the public to make up the shortfall.
Religious and aboriginal organisations can also provide cheap services and make up the shortfall from the public or subsidies. (remember ATSIC?)
This is one of the reasons why the GA industry is impoverished and struggling to maintain standards.
Income from flying has been driven to a very low level.
Religious and aboriginal organisations can also provide cheap services and make up the shortfall from the public or subsidies. (remember ATSIC?)
This is one of the reasons why the GA industry is impoverished and struggling to maintain standards.
Income from flying has been driven to a very low level.
Thread Starter
Owen Stanley, you have got it right. I’m totally for saving money wherever possible and totally against spending extra money unless there is a rational reason for doing so.
The reason I am like this is that I am concerned about the number of pilots who have already lost their jobs, and those who are most likely to do so in the future.
I am a businessman and I know how to expand a business to employ more people. That is, keep the costs down and the income high.
The reason I am like this is that I am concerned about the number of pilots who have already lost their jobs, and those who are most likely to do so in the future.
I am a businessman and I know how to expand a business to employ more people. That is, keep the costs down and the income high.