Rex and the Media Release
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I've got to say an inexperienced FO flying with an inexperienced captain would worry me far more than the possibility of the captain becoming incapacitated. In-flight incapacitation doesn't seem to happen very often but inexperienced captains 'happen' quite often (and perhaps even more so in the future).
Besides, what will be happening to the training quality when experienced, good trainers move on?
Besides, what will be happening to the training quality when experienced, good trainers move on?
Nunc est bibendum
'Stupid post of the week award'
And the winner is.......
43inches for this gem!
I'm sure a pilot with bugger all experience would be able to do exactly the same as Al Haynes considering that no one has experienced that at all before. 
If your posts are a pointer towards the quality of the Rex cadetship then they're in a more dire place than I originally thought!
43inches for this gem!
Experience is worth nothing if you have not experienced the problem at hand.
If your posts are a pointer towards the quality of the Rex cadetship then they're in a more dire place than I originally thought!
43 inches.. you wrote:
"So you would rather the 200 hr inexperienced pilot with inferior training to be crossing the straight with crayfish for company, comforting for their kin.
Or the 200 hour cadet to have proper training by an airline respected for its standards who can easily handle an incapacitated captain."
And so, are you telling us that the above are the only 2 choices available? Seems rather emotive to me and a tad immature, I'd have expected a more reasoned approach from a self styled professional.
And then theres your assumption that the 200 hour cadet will be better trained and more competent than the 200 hour inexperienced pilot. It will take way more than 200 hours to train someone to RHS airline standards unless of course your airline standards are somewhat "more relaxed" due to commercial pressures. I could point you at a couple of smoking holes in the ground that are testimony to a commercially induced "relaxation of standards".
GA in Australia has always attracted the grubbiest of business operators, I rather suspect that the managers of 3rd level airlines are of the same ilk. The blame for this state of affairs must also partly lie with the customers who continually put cost pressures on operators by only looking at the bottom line.
As for me, I left Oz in 1987, and for the first time in my life, I experienced the novelty of not having to fly aircraft carrying a long string of undocumented snags. Not only were all the aircraft beautifully maintained, but my salary went up dramatically to boot. It turned out that this subversive state of affairs was normal everywhere else except in good old Oz.
Is it any wonder that I never came back.
Furthermore, I am not Robinson Crusoe. There are thousands like me with all sorts of useful experience who will come back, just as soon as GA and the 3rd level airlines in Oz leave their 3rd world mentality behind. Balls in your court, employers..grit your teeth and come join the 21st century. Treat your employees with respect, pay them the going global rate - you may be surprised.
Thus in the twilight years of my flying career it is with a delicious sense of schadenfreude that I observe the likes of Rex et al squirming and now bleating for government aid.
"So you would rather the 200 hr inexperienced pilot with inferior training to be crossing the straight with crayfish for company, comforting for their kin.
Or the 200 hour cadet to have proper training by an airline respected for its standards who can easily handle an incapacitated captain."
And so, are you telling us that the above are the only 2 choices available? Seems rather emotive to me and a tad immature, I'd have expected a more reasoned approach from a self styled professional.
And then theres your assumption that the 200 hour cadet will be better trained and more competent than the 200 hour inexperienced pilot. It will take way more than 200 hours to train someone to RHS airline standards unless of course your airline standards are somewhat "more relaxed" due to commercial pressures. I could point you at a couple of smoking holes in the ground that are testimony to a commercially induced "relaxation of standards".
GA in Australia has always attracted the grubbiest of business operators, I rather suspect that the managers of 3rd level airlines are of the same ilk. The blame for this state of affairs must also partly lie with the customers who continually put cost pressures on operators by only looking at the bottom line.
As for me, I left Oz in 1987, and for the first time in my life, I experienced the novelty of not having to fly aircraft carrying a long string of undocumented snags. Not only were all the aircraft beautifully maintained, but my salary went up dramatically to boot. It turned out that this subversive state of affairs was normal everywhere else except in good old Oz.
Is it any wonder that I never came back.
Furthermore, I am not Robinson Crusoe. There are thousands like me with all sorts of useful experience who will come back, just as soon as GA and the 3rd level airlines in Oz leave their 3rd world mentality behind. Balls in your court, employers..grit your teeth and come join the 21st century. Treat your employees with respect, pay them the going global rate - you may be surprised.
Thus in the twilight years of my flying career it is with a delicious sense of schadenfreude that I observe the likes of Rex et al squirming and now bleating for government aid.
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haha i love this quote at the end of the REX faqs...
sounds as if they don't even want to hold onto any of their pilots
whaet
Based on current conditions, good cadets can
reasonably expect to attain their command between the third and fourth year of being a First Officer. A Rex Captain with 5-6 years flying experience usually is suitable for a First Officer position in a large commercial jet aircraft.
reasonably expect to attain their command between the third and fourth year of being a First Officer. A Rex Captain with 5-6 years flying experience usually is suitable for a First Officer position in a large commercial jet aircraft.
whaet
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Who ARE THEY TO SAY THAT
5-6 years flying experience usually is suitable for a First Officer position in a large commercial jet aircraft.
My goodness! When
large commercial jet aircraft
Ay Rex - Keep the laughs coming
43Inches
Which airline would that be?
HINT: Have a look at:
a)
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...199805068.aspx
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200201228.aspx
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200203074.aspx
b) Keg's post #213
and
c) lucille's post #214, paying particular attention to lucille's observation of...
before you answer the question.
Or the 200 hour cadet to have proper training by an airline respected for its standards
HINT: Have a look at:
a)
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...199805068.aspx
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200201228.aspx
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...200203074.aspx
b) Keg's post #213
and
c) lucille's post #214, paying particular attention to lucille's observation of...
smoking holes in the ground that are testimony to a commercially induced "relaxation of standards"
Krusty - I agree with everything you have said in your post, and unfortunately I think your final statement will come to fruition.
Rex will be employing low time pilots whether they go through the cadetship or not, the only thing i'm trying to point out is whether there is any benefit to them doing this training course as opposed to self sourced education and job hunting.
All things being considered it seems like they will get quality training and a certain carreer path. However as has been stated previously it is in the candidates interest to ask questions and read the fine print. And just like anything else in life shop around, but, make sure the big picture is looked at.
The reason for the example given regarding crayfish hauling was the equally extreme call on captain incapacitation, at least training covers this.
As far as my line on experience, Al Haynes used very basic priciples of flight to control the aircraft, he used his experience in the aircraft to understand its new characteristics and quickly adapt to the situation. There is no doubt that experience will help in extreme situations but it still comes from what you have EXPERIENCED including the training you recieved.
The ATSB has numerous reports from all airlines in aus I could post links to aircraft on golf courses and others that departed on the wrong runway or almost ditched. Are you stating that the training in these airlines is sub standard too. The interesting thing about all of these is that they were crewed by experienced pilots who made bad decisions.
Iam not in favour of inexperienced captains who are inadequately trained and left with a bag of luck, and if it does degenerate into a reduced standard due to commercial pressure then this will spread australia wide not just in rex.
Rex will be employing low time pilots whether they go through the cadetship or not, the only thing i'm trying to point out is whether there is any benefit to them doing this training course as opposed to self sourced education and job hunting.
All things being considered it seems like they will get quality training and a certain carreer path. However as has been stated previously it is in the candidates interest to ask questions and read the fine print. And just like anything else in life shop around, but, make sure the big picture is looked at.
The reason for the example given regarding crayfish hauling was the equally extreme call on captain incapacitation, at least training covers this.
As far as my line on experience, Al Haynes used very basic priciples of flight to control the aircraft, he used his experience in the aircraft to understand its new characteristics and quickly adapt to the situation. There is no doubt that experience will help in extreme situations but it still comes from what you have EXPERIENCED including the training you recieved.
The ATSB has numerous reports from all airlines in aus I could post links to aircraft on golf courses and others that departed on the wrong runway or almost ditched. Are you stating that the training in these airlines is sub standard too. The interesting thing about all of these is that they were crewed by experienced pilots who made bad decisions.
Iam not in favour of inexperienced captains who are inadequately trained and left with a bag of luck, and if it does degenerate into a reduced standard due to commercial pressure then this will spread australia wide not just in rex.
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What needs to be done ?
Hi All,
I have been reading this thread and others like it for a while now.
I know I am going to get my head chewed off for saying this. I have seen a lot of comments against the REX cadet scheme. A lot of pilots on this forum are saying that the answer is not to run the cadet scheme but keep pilots that are already employed by offering better incentives.
If there are only so many experienced pilots in the world, why do the airlines need to keep poaching from regional carriers. It seems that there is more air travel than ever which requires more pilots then ever. So the airlines obviously run out of pilots and need to recruit more. This then leaves a gap in the regionals. They need to hire more pilots but where are they going to come from. Well they poach flying instructors and pilots with experience.
So then who will the flying schools get to be flying instructors. Well we will hire our students that have qualified as flight instructors.
There seems to be a progression from student to instructor to regional to airlines. So if rex is not doing the cadet thing where are the many thousands of pilots going to come from to fly all of these new planes.
All I am trying to say is if the pilots on this forum are so unhappy with what rex is doing then instead of b*tching about it why not come up with your own solution to the problem.
Just a thought.
I have been reading this thread and others like it for a while now.
I know I am going to get my head chewed off for saying this. I have seen a lot of comments against the REX cadet scheme. A lot of pilots on this forum are saying that the answer is not to run the cadet scheme but keep pilots that are already employed by offering better incentives.
If there are only so many experienced pilots in the world, why do the airlines need to keep poaching from regional carriers. It seems that there is more air travel than ever which requires more pilots then ever. So the airlines obviously run out of pilots and need to recruit more. This then leaves a gap in the regionals. They need to hire more pilots but where are they going to come from. Well they poach flying instructors and pilots with experience.
So then who will the flying schools get to be flying instructors. Well we will hire our students that have qualified as flight instructors.
There seems to be a progression from student to instructor to regional to airlines. So if rex is not doing the cadet thing where are the many thousands of pilots going to come from to fly all of these new planes.
All I am trying to say is if the pilots on this forum are so unhappy with what rex is doing then instead of b*tching about it why not come up with your own solution to the problem.
Just a thought.
Metrosexual
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Yes, REX and other regionals are going to be getting low time pilots - it inevitable, and no one disagrees with this fact.
And yes, most of them are going to be able to steer the aeroplane, know the regs, know the systems and the IFR. Will they understand the often subtle interaction between them all.
I will tell you - from experience - where these pilots will fail, and fail miserably.
Situational Awareness
Judgement
Cunning
Foresight
In my previous employment, I had seen plenty of guys who could steer, but could not think or make a decision to save themselves - and often committed the aeroplane to the air before they had all the info they could get - and they did not worry at all about it.
Why? They did not know enough to know what they didn't know, and what they needed to worry about - or plan for.
That's ok, if there's a captain with experience in the LHS to make the decisions.
And my long winded point is:
How many experienced Captains are going to hang around and teach these guys this stuff?
And, how many experienced Captains are going to stick their hand up and volunteer to do so for an extra 6-10%?
That money will never buy back the years lost off one's nervous system.
In the regionals and mid-level TP operators, it will, n the not too distant future, be a case of the blind leading the blind.
In some companies this is the case right now.
And yes, most of them are going to be able to steer the aeroplane, know the regs, know the systems and the IFR. Will they understand the often subtle interaction between them all.
I will tell you - from experience - where these pilots will fail, and fail miserably.
Situational Awareness
Judgement
Cunning
Foresight
In my previous employment, I had seen plenty of guys who could steer, but could not think or make a decision to save themselves - and often committed the aeroplane to the air before they had all the info they could get - and they did not worry at all about it.
Why? They did not know enough to know what they didn't know, and what they needed to worry about - or plan for.
That's ok, if there's a captain with experience in the LHS to make the decisions.
And my long winded point is:
How many experienced Captains are going to hang around and teach these guys this stuff?
And, how many experienced Captains are going to stick their hand up and volunteer to do so for an extra 6-10%?
That money will never buy back the years lost off one's nervous system.
In the regionals and mid-level TP operators, it will, n the not too distant future, be a case of the blind leading the blind.
In some companies this is the case right now.
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In the regionals and mid-level TP operators, it will, n the not too distant future, be a case of the blind leading the blind.
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Originally Posted by 43Inches
and a certain carreer path.
Originally Posted by 43Inches
There is no doubt that experience will help in extreme situations but it still comes from what you have EXPERIENCED including the training you recieved.
Originally Posted by 43Inches
Iam not in favour of inexperienced captains who are inadequately trained and left with a bag of luck
Last edited by 3-8-Echo; 4th Nov 2007 at 10:00. Reason: The PM speaks the truth. Never thought I'd say that, but here we are.
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Why do you think they make no mention of ATPL's in the FAQ
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No
Not I said the bear !!!!
I got asked to send in my HSC and have not heard a thing since. Mind you I completed my HSC in 1994 and so it is not a valid representation of where I am in my life now. I just finished a Cert IV in Info Tech with mostly distinctions. Can't say my HSC was too crash hot.
I got asked to send in my HSC and have not heard a thing since. Mind you I completed my HSC in 1994 and so it is not a valid representation of where I am in my life now. I just finished a Cert IV in Info Tech with mostly distinctions. Can't say my HSC was too crash hot.
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I know I am about to be shot down, but here goes.
What is the difference betwen a Qantas cadet and a Rex cadet? They also land in the right seat of a Qantas regional partner eg. Air North. Nobody condems that system.
I work for a major carrier in Japan that has for the last approx 20 years placed 200hr cadets in the right seat of a B767. All the airline has done is install checks and balances as to when a co-pilot with limited experience can fly, eg not more than half max x-wind limit for landing and T/off. They stipulate a max T/off weight for co-pilots, etc. These pilots are operating in much more congested airspace, inhospitable terrain and weather conditions than any cadet will ever experience in Australia. (They also don't have English as a first language).
Why in Australia is no one allowed an 'easy ride', if you don't slog it out the hard way you can't possibly be good at your job!!! I think we should be thankful that aviation has reached a point that places like Rex have now realised that they too must contribute inorder to reap.
What is the difference betwen a Qantas cadet and a Rex cadet? They also land in the right seat of a Qantas regional partner eg. Air North. Nobody condems that system.
I work for a major carrier in Japan that has for the last approx 20 years placed 200hr cadets in the right seat of a B767. All the airline has done is install checks and balances as to when a co-pilot with limited experience can fly, eg not more than half max x-wind limit for landing and T/off. They stipulate a max T/off weight for co-pilots, etc. These pilots are operating in much more congested airspace, inhospitable terrain and weather conditions than any cadet will ever experience in Australia. (They also don't have English as a first language).
Why in Australia is no one allowed an 'easy ride', if you don't slog it out the hard way you can't possibly be good at your job!!! I think we should be thankful that aviation has reached a point that places like Rex have now realised that they too must contribute inorder to reap.
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Dogslay.
1. They are not going to fly ILS to ILS like you probably do in your B767.
2. They will be flying into airports with rudimentary, bordering on poor, facilities (NDB app, PAPI, uncontrolled aerodrome).
3. The weather is not always sunny and clear in Australia, and up-to-the-minute weather reports for the fields they will operate into are generally not available.
4. They will probably be flying with Captains with progressively less & less experience - I would imagine your captains have a good deal of line experience.
5. REX are not really contributing - they are working on a way to have indentured labour.
6. The terrain here may not be as bad as Katmandu or Innsbruck or wherever, but the ground is still as hard under the right set of circumstances, and some of the storms we deal with are not exactly just summer breezes.
7. I bet your captains are paid alot more than the Rex captains who would be expected to hold the hands of these guys over shorter and more frequent sectors than you would in your B767
8. SF340 do not have autoland like a B767 nor as many bells and whistles and technology .
9. SF340 spends more time in 'weather' like ice and rain and clouds etc etc etc - your B767's fly above it.
etc etc etc etc etc I could go on, but I am sure you get the picture.
If you don't I am sure others will fill you in.
The regional operations in rural Australia may not seem as 'dangerous' as other places with terrain and 'weather' but when you add all the operating environment we have here, they have their own risks and ideosynchrasies - none of which tolerate inexperience or ineptitude under certain circumstances.
1. They are not going to fly ILS to ILS like you probably do in your B767.
2. They will be flying into airports with rudimentary, bordering on poor, facilities (NDB app, PAPI, uncontrolled aerodrome).
3. The weather is not always sunny and clear in Australia, and up-to-the-minute weather reports for the fields they will operate into are generally not available.
4. They will probably be flying with Captains with progressively less & less experience - I would imagine your captains have a good deal of line experience.
5. REX are not really contributing - they are working on a way to have indentured labour.
6. The terrain here may not be as bad as Katmandu or Innsbruck or wherever, but the ground is still as hard under the right set of circumstances, and some of the storms we deal with are not exactly just summer breezes.
7. I bet your captains are paid alot more than the Rex captains who would be expected to hold the hands of these guys over shorter and more frequent sectors than you would in your B767
8. SF340 do not have autoland like a B767 nor as many bells and whistles and technology .
9. SF340 spends more time in 'weather' like ice and rain and clouds etc etc etc - your B767's fly above it.
etc etc etc etc etc I could go on, but I am sure you get the picture.
If you don't I am sure others will fill you in.
The regional operations in rural Australia may not seem as 'dangerous' as other places with terrain and 'weather' but when you add all the operating environment we have here, they have their own risks and ideosynchrasies - none of which tolerate inexperience or ineptitude under certain circumstances.
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well said jet a knight
. i recently got a reply from rex when i emailed them.. asking about more information on ATPL and command time, and hours and repayments, they replied to me ..
Thank you for your interest in REX.
Please download the FAQs from our website as follows. We hope they will assist you when making your decision.
hmm..
. i recently got a reply from rex when i emailed them.. asking about more information on ATPL and command time, and hours and repayments, they replied to me ..
Thank you for your interest in REX.
Please download the FAQs from our website as follows. We hope they will assist you when making your decision.
hmm..
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Jet A Knight, you didn't answer the question about the Qantas cadets.
By the way I flew domestically in Oz for 6 years, I know the terrain , wx etc please don't talk down to me, I have been doing this for 30 years. I flew B737's into MTAF's etc ,I know what I am talking about.
I have also trained from ab initio to 4 engine jets, I have met 200 hour pilots that would put high and mighty 3000 hour pilots to shame.
By the way I flew domestically in Oz for 6 years, I know the terrain , wx etc please don't talk down to me, I have been doing this for 30 years. I flew B737's into MTAF's etc ,I know what I am talking about.
I have also trained from ab initio to 4 engine jets, I have met 200 hour pilots that would put high and mighty 3000 hour pilots to shame.
Dogslay
I have to agree with you. I have been flying for 22 years, my first 15 in Australia, mostly in remote FNQ and PNG and can count on one hand the number of times I have flown an NDB approach in anger. Infact I've done more visual approaches at night onto RWY24 at KIX in Japan in the last seven years than I have done real NDB approaches in Aus and I have lost count of the number of landings I've done on snow covered runways. Mix this with some very poor ATC in most of Asia and the workload goes through the roof. To cap it off, many airlines in this region operate with a low time cadets in the right seat. Some people need a reality check. Aus isn't a difficult environment to fly in, especially with cadets.
I have to agree with you. I have been flying for 22 years, my first 15 in Australia, mostly in remote FNQ and PNG and can count on one hand the number of times I have flown an NDB approach in anger. Infact I've done more visual approaches at night onto RWY24 at KIX in Japan in the last seven years than I have done real NDB approaches in Aus and I have lost count of the number of landings I've done on snow covered runways. Mix this with some very poor ATC in most of Asia and the workload goes through the roof. To cap it off, many airlines in this region operate with a low time cadets in the right seat. Some people need a reality check. Aus isn't a difficult environment to fly in, especially with cadets.
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Australia has the best safety record in the world......lets keep it that way!!!!
I don't beleive it's an accident that we have had no major airline crashes in this country...experience counts for a lot for this!!!!
It may be so thats cadets fly all over the world in the RHS of some very big machines but if they can gain some real world experience before they take this step it can only be a good thing.....
I don't beleive it's an accident that we have had no major airline crashes in this country...experience counts for a lot for this!!!!
It may be so thats cadets fly all over the world in the RHS of some very big machines but if they can gain some real world experience before they take this step it can only be a good thing.....
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To those considering the Rex cadetship you would be wise to consider KRUSTY34 point about commands.
A CPL requires a minimum of 70 Hours Solo (logged as command) flight.
Rex First Officer requires a CPL & Co-Pilot endorsement.
A command requires an ATPL & Command Endorsement.
An ATPL requires 250 command hours, of which 150 can be ICUS (In Command Under Supervision). However, ICUS time can only be logged if you hold a Command Endorsement & the Rex Operations Manual permits it.
So a hypothetical situation could occur, where you had a Co-Pilot endorsement & 70 Command hours after checking to line as a First Officer. In order to gain a command, you would need to go and fly at your own expense approx 180 hours (at about $135 per hour for a C152 =$24,300) of solo time before you were eligible for a command, in addition to your ATPL subjects.
So, two questions should be asked & answered in writing before I signed up for an $80,000 loan would be:
* Will I gain a command endorsement on a Rex Group Aircraft?
* Can I log ICUS time?
If you cannot answer YES to both questions you should weigh up the pro's & cons of spending 6 years in the RHS or spending an extra $25000 (in addition to the $45,000 you will pay back) to gain command time before signing up.
A CPL requires a minimum of 70 Hours Solo (logged as command) flight.
Rex First Officer requires a CPL & Co-Pilot endorsement.
A command requires an ATPL & Command Endorsement.
An ATPL requires 250 command hours, of which 150 can be ICUS (In Command Under Supervision). However, ICUS time can only be logged if you hold a Command Endorsement & the Rex Operations Manual permits it.
So a hypothetical situation could occur, where you had a Co-Pilot endorsement & 70 Command hours after checking to line as a First Officer. In order to gain a command, you would need to go and fly at your own expense approx 180 hours (at about $135 per hour for a C152 =$24,300) of solo time before you were eligible for a command, in addition to your ATPL subjects.
So, two questions should be asked & answered in writing before I signed up for an $80,000 loan would be:
* Will I gain a command endorsement on a Rex Group Aircraft?
* Can I log ICUS time?
If you cannot answer YES to both questions you should weigh up the pro's & cons of spending 6 years in the RHS or spending an extra $25000 (in addition to the $45,000 you will pay back) to gain command time before signing up.