Jetstar A320 Go Around Melbourne
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: airside
Posts: 518
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BAZZAMUNDI WROTE:
Stupid question but what happens if you fail a check or a sim with Jetstar? I heard a story the other day, but doubt it is true, that you have to pay for the next sim. Is this true or complete rubbish?
CHIMBU CHUCKLES WROTE:
complete rubbish,.
Yet I look at the Collective agreement (AKA Group AWA) and find the following
23.6.7 If you fail any simulator flight check you will be given remedial training followed by a further check. If your performance is still considered unsatisfactory, you will be given the opportunity of further training prior to completing a further check. You may elect to have the final check conducted by a different Check Pilot.
MUTUAL OBLIGATIONS TO TRAINING
23.1.4 Provided you agree training may be undertaken in your own time on a non-paid basis.
Please explain!
Stupid question but what happens if you fail a check or a sim with Jetstar? I heard a story the other day, but doubt it is true, that you have to pay for the next sim. Is this true or complete rubbish?
CHIMBU CHUCKLES WROTE:
complete rubbish,.
Yet I look at the Collective agreement (AKA Group AWA) and find the following
23.6.7 If you fail any simulator flight check you will be given remedial training followed by a further check. If your performance is still considered unsatisfactory, you will be given the opportunity of further training prior to completing a further check. You may elect to have the final check conducted by a different Check Pilot.
MUTUAL OBLIGATIONS TO TRAINING
23.1.4 Provided you agree training may be undertaken in your own time on a non-paid basis.
Please explain!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The dark corner of the bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "TOGA TAP" has always been fraught with problems. One of the biggest issues here is Alteon. From what I understand the endorsement process has improved somewhat. As with most things in life though you get what you pay for. Perhaps in this case however you don't. I imagine it wont be long before the scapegoating commences.
DM
DM
So does this mean Gnadenburg that you will continue to fly with J*?
In other cases, I will check the Herald Sun to ensure it's VMC- don't want to be on board whilst some joker tries to break the sound barrier on Go Around.
I do similar when flying in the developing world.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a quaint superstition that you have that you will only fly with a blue shirt. It must cause you a bit of grief when you show up for work out of uniform.
The problem with the "TOGA tap" is that it is a non-documented procedure. There is a TO/GA procedure in FCOM and a procedure for going around from an intermediate altitude.
Other posts on this thread have shown that there are some who feel that they can apply a modified TO/GA procedure on a Boeing that will "fix" any problems associated with the manufacturer's procedure.
This is what occurred with the informal introduction of the TO/GA tap into Jetstar. The TO/GA tap was considered to be a modification to the FCOM TO/GA procedure that would "fix" the problem of flap overspeeds.
The problem with the "TOGA tap" is that it is a non-documented procedure. There is a TO/GA procedure in FCOM and a procedure for going around from an intermediate altitude.
Other posts on this thread have shown that there are some who feel that they can apply a modified TO/GA procedure on a Boeing that will "fix" any problems associated with the manufacturer's procedure.
This is what occurred with the informal introduction of the TO/GA tap into Jetstar. The TO/GA tap was considered to be a modification to the FCOM TO/GA procedure that would "fix" the problem of flap overspeeds.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a strange aeroplane that requires the thrust levers to sort out a problem with the FMS. On the Boeing (if my memory serves me correctly), TO/GA wasn't required to restring the flight plan.
( comparing apples to apples, narrow bodies only )
Yes the 'Bus is harder to learn, but once you've got a handle on it ( 6 months or so ) it is a hell of alot more user friendly than the No Generation.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The dark corner of the bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HongKong Fooey. Ive been flying the bus for about 20 years on and off and still struggle with the bloody thing!! The TOGA TAP was initially designed for the intermediate go around scenario ie, from say 1500ft up to 2000ft. The major issue with it is in my opinion anyway is that it overly complicates the procedure at a critical time. 200ft at night and or in IMC is not the place to be changing power configurations. TOGA is designed to get you away from the ground quickly and safely. The design of the 320 incorporates the positioning of the "throttles" into the TOGA detent to action the speed reference system. SRS. As far as I know the repositioning of the "throttles" back to MCT has never been endorsed by Airbus as a manufacturer.
Gnanden its only my opinion but I for one have always been sus on the procedure.
My thoughts are with the crew involved. I hope they have received the proper support post the incident.
Cheerio Doug.
Gnanden its only my opinion but I for one have always been sus on the procedure.
My thoughts are with the crew involved. I hope they have received the proper support post the incident.
Cheerio Doug.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
I think this whole TOGA tap business, in reference to this incident is a bit of a furphy. I believe the crew initiated a go-around, or thought they did, and the situation deteriorated from there.
I have seen this situation demonstrated in the SIM, and believe me it was very nearly a major accident. Fortunately the crew recovered the situation by disconnecting the AP when the A/C did not perform as they expected. Think about it; they were less than 200 feet above the ground, in IMC, still locked on to the glideslope but the engines spooling up to max continuous thrust. It scared the crap out of me in the sim and we did it in VMC conditions. There was very little time to react.
The upshot of it all is that the crew made an error from which they recovered. We have all been there and hopefully learned from the experience. The performance of Jetstars management was not good however and they need to be much more forthcoming when these errors occur.
I have seen this situation demonstrated in the SIM, and believe me it was very nearly a major accident. Fortunately the crew recovered the situation by disconnecting the AP when the A/C did not perform as they expected. Think about it; they were less than 200 feet above the ground, in IMC, still locked on to the glideslope but the engines spooling up to max continuous thrust. It scared the crap out of me in the sim and we did it in VMC conditions. There was very little time to react.
The upshot of it all is that the crew made an error from which they recovered. We have all been there and hopefully learned from the experience. The performance of Jetstars management was not good however and they need to be much more forthcoming when these errors occur.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this whole TOGA tap business, in reference to this incident is a bit of a furphy. I believe the crew initiated a go-around, or thought they did, and the situation deteriorated from there.
Just look at how many times the Left Auto Pilot was engaged & disengaged between the selection of MCT thrust setting until the aircraft eventually climbed away.
Just look at how many times the Left Auto Pilot was engaged & disengaged
SOPs provide the highest level of approach capability hence AP1+2 ON for ILS approach.
If you are not happy with what the AP is doing get rid of it and do it yourself.
Just love it when non-airbus types get invloved.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AP1 or AP2 is either ON or OFF, despite what the report states.
The report clearly states, both AP 1&2 where on for the approach & disconnected around the timestamp 21:51:40
AP1 was engaged again & then disconected shortly before timestamp 21:52:00
AP1 was engaged & then disconected again shortly after timestamp 21:52:20
Then AP1 was re-engeged yet again approaching timestamp 21:52:40
Thats straight from the QAR data!!
If you are not happy with what the AP is doing get rid of it and do it yourself
I agree entirely with this statement, however on this occassion it appears that neither the AP nor manual flight were achieving the desired objectives over a period of approximately 50 seconds.
Just love it when non-airbus types get invloved.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doug, don't know if you've flown the Boeing, but admittedly it is alot simpler.....................'cause you have to do the whole bloody thing manually 
No girly A/P or A/T 
I'll take the 'Bus with its idiosynchrosies any day.
( unless in a dual A/P G/A,but our mob does'nt recommend dual a/p ILSs,
knows why )
No girly A/P or A/T I'll take the 'Bus with its idiosynchrosies any day.( unless in a dual A/P G/A,but our mob does'nt recommend dual a/p ILSs,
knows why )
