Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations

[cartexchange]

you're quite right Pegasus some of the latest recruits have been a real worry!

still the process they use now is better than the tamil tiger used!

[lowerlobe]

Originally posted by Pegasus747....

I cannot think of a selection process that any organisation would agree to that would essentially allow crew to select those suitable for promotion.

Pegasus...I don't remember anyone suggesting that they want crew to pick new CSM's.

Only that they want the process to be more transparent so that the company will find it more difficult to 'appoint' their chosen ones.

That is exactly what they are trying to do by allowing BFA crew to move directly into the CSM role.

It has been suggested by myself and others that candidates for the position should have spent some period of time as a CSS in Y/C.

It was also mentioned that another problem is that a lot of positions in Sydney are taken by crew on the transfer list.

This means that if you want the job you are basically forced to move to Melbourne.

Does the union feel that something can and should be done to improve the selection process?

[hawke eye]

Returned from afar

Well, well, well, its nice to be back .
i just heard through the grapevine we could get some extra information about the eba on here. I thought it had closed down. Glad it hasnt.

Good to see some of the old familiar faces, Peg, Llobe, cart exch, guardian, surfside etc.

Seems midnight is still at it, a new one mr frozo doesnt know the diff between talking about AWAs and EBAs...errr its about a week.

L4Primary is accused of being a coward(rightly so) and has disappeared. Good riddance and all is right in the qf forum world.
Yes i have missed the cut and thrust of the debates in here.

Enough nostalgia just thought Id say hello to my debating colleagues and congratulate Guadian on a good EBA.
I will enjoy question time at the meetings.
In as much as we can grasp without the detail it seems ok.
I guess short haul must be wondering where does it leave them.
That too will be revealed all in Darths good timeI guess.

That is not a poke at SHaul. Reading on here it appears we have not penalised them should they wish to transfer to Long Haul nor should they be. We need to be better than that, again I applaud MM and SR.
But I still wonder what are the ramifications of our eba upon them. Does anyone know when the shaul eba is? and anyone from s haul what is your viewpoint and what is the discussion about our eba which is happenning over in your domain. Has your officials said anything,ie, good , bad ugly, would be interesed to hear. Please lets not turn this question of interest into a slanging match us against them.
glad to be back i hope

[hawke eye]

FAAA - Guadian1 Please do something!

Pegasus,
I agee with L Lobe, the CSM selection process needs to be transparent. The FAAA needs to put pressure on the Company by highlighting past unusual selection criteria. such as being on the BOS desk.

Its one thing to cop when there are 20 or so positions its another when there are 80 and F/As are eligible. If the FAAA is agreeing to the change of process so F/As and B first can apply, the ( FAAA). should be able to have a say in the process.In past years there was an appeal process. Now there is nothing.Its not management who have to work with some of them day in day out. They only have the occassional meeting over the occassional issue or once a year KPIs.

This situation cannot continue. as stated in someones earlier post how is it a F/A isnt good enough for B First yet may well be selected for CSM. Guardian - What is the FAAA doing about this absurd situation???.



God help us all if you dont

[left 4 primary]

To everyone,
I would like to offer a sincere apology for the cowardly unprovoked attack on a colleague, It's not an excuse, but I was pretty drunk at the time when I wrote it.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone and I've ammended the previous post. No names, no pack drill.

I had drinks with him when he first got the coat, and I got a different version of events from him about what actually happened, but several years have passed and my memory is obviously not as reliable as it use to be.

In future ,I'll keep my mouth shut unless I can add something constructive to this forum.

Once again....Sorry

[nite walker]

apologise properly or dont

I have to laugh L4 Primary,
at first i thought you were doing the right thing like surfside 6, then you couldnt help yourself.you had to have a dig. I do know the person and i have heard him defend himself several times at drinks in LAX and never did his story sound like yours.

I guess i defend the bloke cos I have flown with him and he is good to the crew.He lets you get on with the job and comes down the back to give a hand which too few do these days.I also have heard the story told several time - the same story. I know its more fun to believe a rumour.
Its obvious you dont like him for whatever reason, but if you are apologising you dont try to substantiate that somehow you were in fact speaking the truth. I suggest you have a chat to him face to face to get the story clear from him so you dont slander him on here, maybe you could tell him you mighthave got it wrong on here.im sure hell be amused.

Fact, the guy didnt date the Tamil, nor did he invite her to footy games,
Surfside thanks for showing L4Primary what a retraction is.

Now pheeeeew back to the EBA

[left 4 primary]

I swear on a stack of bibles what I said is the truth. I had a few coldies with him around 2001, after all the controversy had had blown over,you remember his controversial article in the Ex-Syd magazine and the firey e-mail he posted out against the luddites. I openly asked him what was going on.

Why can't you accept what I've said? as the truth.

[lowerlobe]

Wow...We are really getting into some heavy navel gazing here.....

As was posted earlier....who ever Winnie selected for the job is part of history and can't be turned back whether you like them or not.

Anyway,as long as everybody is happy and no one has any hurt feelings let's get back to the EBA....

Pegasus,Guardian,Eden or anyone with an alpha numeric id.

What do you think the union can do to improve the selection process for CSM and CSS?

[sydney s/h]

Why all the bagging of people who work on the BOS desk?

In SH you have to already be a CSM to work there so there is no "promotion" as such.

And i'm not sure what the LH BOS people do but in SH they are a great team of guys and girls who do nothing but help the crew - infact they do far more than the CCTM/CCM's!!

I know i have called them on occasion and they are great!

[lowerlobe]

sydney s/h...

In Sydney L/H the BOS desk is either a step ladder for your aspirations or one of the location's for the fear of flying club....

IN S/H what is the selection process for CSM?

[hawke eye]

S Haul misunderstanding / ill sort it L4 Primary

Hi Syd S Haul, I wasnt bagging anyone who does the BOS desk, dont get me wrong as you said a lot of them do a great job.
The last CSM promotion , it was noticed five of the
(CSS) who were successful had regularly worked on the BOS desk.
Im sure it does give the BOS person an advantage but what about those that didnt know it was an advantage to work on it, do you have to be good behind a desk and handling office politics to be good / capable in the air?
Some might commute or have responsibilities caring for loved ones( elderly/ children) and cant commit to the BOS desk. Not knocking the BOS or the desk but surely a better - level/ transparent system could be devised. With 80 required for the CSM position obviously it will require other avenues of interview processes to be explored as im sure they havent had 80 different (CSS) on the BOS desk since the last upgrade.

L4Primary and nite walker, I can solve the issue for you. Im going to one of the upcoming FAAA EBA meetings, I know (mud)he is a union supporter, if hes not at the meeting I go to then when i next bump into him Ill ask him if he ever said to anyone that he dated tamil or socialised regularly with her.
I know him reasonably well (hence my earlier comments) and i feel comfortable enough to ask him so we can see what is the truth as you put it L4 Primary.
Oh one thing i know about the guy is he isnt a liar, ive yet to find out that he has ever been anything but honest with this sort of stuff. Ask the union officials, he supported MM and SR over whether he thought the last EBA had some issues. He put his principles before friendship loyalties, i had a few discussions / beers over why he did it. I was impressed and felt sorry for him his principles cost him some friendships. Some of the former officials didnt forgive him. He said an EBA and friendships should be seperate, some i guess didnt see it that way. I like him and i dont like seeing him cop any more, hes copped enough he didnt deserve.
I remember the luddite stuff.The luddite wrote in the FAAA publication. Yes he did criticise the Luddite, someone who was a folk hero to many and a good laugh. It turns out the folk hero took the london basing and the CSM job. I also remember the FAAA cautioning any of us in Long Haul from taking the basing.Ill let you be the judge of that one.
yes i know moving on..... back to the EBA

[Pegasus747]

CSM Promotions

Juat a couple of points...the Selection criteria cannot sit an an EBA as it is prohibited content by law.

Anything that stops the company from directly appointing an outside contractor or labour hire person to a position is illegal. Therefore no enforceable arrangements for selection can sit in an EBA under the current laws....SOrry to dissappoint everyone but thats just anotherr howard legacy.

It might interest crew to note that there have been 37 CSS that have worked on the BOS desk and in the last round, my information is that only 5 of the successful CSM applicants were from that group.

Furthermore, and dont shoot me for this please ...Short haul promote from Flight Attendant directly to CSM as they have no CSS position. And i certainly believe that a long Haul A/C or BFA is infinitely more experienced in a range of skillls than most short haul crew given the lengths of flights and scenarios we have to deal with.

Personally i would love to be in a position to ensure an open transparent process for all promotions but it doesnt exist anywhere that i know of

[Pegasus747]

oh and in relation to the CSM that was mates with The tamil tiger i can tell you from personal knowledge that when her marraige broke up she was a mess and the guy in question along with a number of of other caring crew took pity on her and made an effort to ensure she got included in a few outings with crew.

Can i say from a purely personal perspective it was a very decent thing to do

[hawke eye]

Peg
i stand corrected. thought it was the majority of CSMs who were successful had worked BOS, appreciate the correction and facts and apologise for my ignorance.
so now what is it we need to know or do to become a CSM???
needless to say I have corrected my post

[Pegasus747]

Can i suggest that the reason union reps, and ppl that have worked on the ground in BOS or EP instructors or service policy have generally done well is because their exposure to the "business" (and i hate the term) is greater than those that have flying experience alone.

At the interview stage they are often able to construct responses to scenarios with a different perspective.

Also given that we are largely a remote workforce, those that select crew for promotion have had more time to spend with these individuals and have developed a "relationship" with them beyond that which other competitors for promotion have had.

Clearly from the stats that i have posted above though, it is not the only thing that counts as clearly on 5 of the last group had worked on BOS from my knowledge.

[lowerlobe]

Pegasus...

Anything that stops the company from directly appointing an outside contractor or labour hire person to a position is illegal.

I did not know that was even suggested....

What is your position on the transfer list affecting CSM positions for those living and based in Sydney?

[left 4 primary]

Hawke eye,

They seem to favour the use of Hogan psychological profiling, so get to know it.

Scenarios, scenarios and more scenarios. As peg said the one of the advantages of working on the ground is that you get an insight on how events and incidents reflect and impact on the business.

The selection process definitely needs to be more transparent. Is there any truth to the rumour that the CTTM's weren't too happy with the quality of recent CSS applications and were ringing people up at home, suggesting that they should apply?

If that is the case, they already know who they want for the job.

[left 4 primary]

I'm under the impression that EBA8 allows the provision of dedicated A380 crew and from what I gather, crew will have a 2 year window to decide which fleet they would like to be permanently on, 747 or A380.

My question is ,does anyone know how many A380's will we be operating in the next 2 years? What are number of crew that they are looking for?

Can you still nominate to operate on the A380, if for instance you are based in BNE, and there are limited or possibly no A380 flying from that base? Does it mean transferring to Sydney if you want to fly on the A380?

Do you think that there will be any chance of base transfers being actioned in the near future?

[Pegasus747]

it would appear that A380 will only be based in Sydney and London at this stage...with the possibility of melbourne depending on schedule.. at this stage i dont think that have much of an idea where it will fly in all certainty and marketing has not confirmed anything.

i think its unlikely that it will fly out of brisbane but no one in CC management have a clue....

I wouldnt be applying for A380 on the basis of where they think it will fly .. remember any patterns that they release will have as much validity as the original melbourne base patterns...

The work rules for A380 mirror the london base just remember thats the world on that fleet and it is positioned to go head to head with SQ and EI

[DEFCON4]

Sting in The Tail

Management has said from the outset that LHCC were too expensive to fly the A380.
EBA8 allows LHCC access to the A380 but on fairly unpalatable terms.You must accept that you will fly only the 380 and consequently its destinations.Initially these destinations will be LAX JNB LHR and possibly FRA.You can be rostered up to 240hrs.The right to vote for continuing after 17hrs in a delay situation is gone.
If you elect not to fly the blimp you will be restricted to regional flying.Here the slip formula will change...no 46 hr slip in the first three.This will apply to regional flying where the trips are less than 6 days in duration and the east west time change is less than three hours.Regional flying will cover HKG SIN MNL PEK BKK NRT Shanghai and Seoul.
You get to keep your wages but your Tand Cs have changed.You still have access to LHR but only on the A380.So you have choices but each has a sting in the tail.With regional flying you may lose slip time but will get to spend more time at home.Unless there is whole lot of paxing slip time will still be determined by flight frequency.
The real big losers here are the domestics.They pretty much go back to flying within Australia.
While the offshore bases will be 25% of the Australian Crew population they will not grow to 50%..which was likely before this EBA.
There will be more employment of Australians but on a "B"Scale.
There will be a whole lot of promotion within current ranks rather than offshore.
Increased mat leave and unlimited partime for all categories.
Management really wants this to get up...hence the sign on bonus.
Not many LHCC will want to fly the A380 under these conditions...restriction of destinations,extended tours of duty and more time away from home with 240 hour rosters.So it will be much cheaper to operate with "B" scale new hires
Other destinations which will retain the slip formula are HNL BOM and SFO.But these are end of line ports so it will have nil impact.
The alternative to this EBA is fairly bleak.Loss of more flying to the domestics,no access to new wide bodied technology(A380 787 etc.)a marked increase in the size of the offshore bases.In short LHCC would be starved of flying...more VRs offered to people who would have little choice but to accept.
So there are choices with this EBA where there would otherwise be none.
The biggest losers here are the domestics...they have been effectively dealt out of the game..Kharma some would say.
VRs will be offered on a regular basis over the life of this EBA.If you are close to or over 55 and have more than 20 years seniority it will more than likely be a no brainer to leave.
It allows many to leave at a time of their own choosing while still earning current and slightly increasing(3%)remuneration.
Death with dignity if you like.
So LHCC are stuck between a rock and a hard place.Either vote up the EBA with all its "catches" or disappear into oblivion.......quickly