OPERATORS..... yes you, looky looky.
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Swab:
You telling fibs?
Three Blades:
We all have a tale to tell that gets us to the point we’re at – it isn’t easy. It’s not just a pilot thing, just thought it was a bit of a one sided earlier comment.
Those baggage dropping airlines probably don’t run well at all, they might appear to though.
Agreed, neither would I walk that particular mile. But neither would I be chasing him for the job either. Unfortunately many do, for what ever reason.
You telling fibs?
Three Blades:
We all have a tale to tell that gets us to the point we’re at – it isn’t easy. It’s not just a pilot thing, just thought it was a bit of a one sided earlier comment.
Those baggage dropping airlines probably don’t run well at all, they might appear to though.
Agreed, neither would I walk that particular mile. But neither would I be chasing him for the job either. Unfortunately many do, for what ever reason.
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It's always a good idea to walk a mile in someone elses's shoes before you insult them.
That way, you're a mile away when they hear you.
And you've got their shoes.
VH-CU
That way, you're a mile away when they hear you.
And you've got their shoes.
VH-CU
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Gads.........when are pilots going to stop making silly comments such as the above (take what you will.....theres plenty there!!) and simply saysomething along the lines of..oh...I dont know....ah here we go....I'D LIKE TO HOUSE, CLOTH EDUCATE AND FEED MY FAMILY WITH A DECENT SALARY THAT REFLECTS THE TIME MONEY AND EFFORT THAT IV'E PUT IN UP TO THIS POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!......can it be any easier gentleman??
**** knows......every stupid prick in the company is doing it......why cant I???
**** knows......every stupid prick in the company is doing it......why cant I???
aintsaying, Hey Buddy, I wasn't having a crack at the "workers" , rather the shiny arses who think they are indespensible.. sorry if I offended you
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Meagain
No offence taken.
Just remember, Aviation is a team sport.
No matter what part of the airline operation you come from, you are still part of the team.
The more people that learn this and begin to understand this, the better.
For me its just hard enough knowing that I'm just a Kog in the machine.
Aintsaying
No offence taken.
Just remember, Aviation is a team sport.
No matter what part of the airline operation you come from, you are still part of the team.
The more people that learn this and begin to understand this, the better.
For me its just hard enough knowing that I'm just a Kog in the machine.
Aintsaying
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well it's great to see that operators are reading this forum.
ALL WE WANT IS TO PAID CLOSE TO THE AVERAGE WAGE. Why do pilots have to live and struggle to support multi-million dollar companies??? The average wage is now around $55,000 dollars, a single engine casual pilot still struggles to get paid 20K, a FO for rex is on 43k, ......... WHY are we treated like second-rate workers????? Supply and demand maybe??? But look at the position we are in now, jobs galore but still no pay rise. WHY??????
The answer is simple; pilots have treated them selves and the profession they work in with disrespect. Basically excepting any conditions to build hours to reach the top of the tree. Instead of demanding certain conditions like the GA award they have worked below the poverty line, knowing if they don’t there will be 50 hungry dogs ready to pounce into their position.
In many ways I am embarrassed to be a member of this profession. I may cop criticism for that, but I look at other less glamorises jobs and see a united work force that is strong in keeping and gaining conditions.
Collectively, We are as weak as p…s.
So next time you see a pilot make a stance for better conditions try standing beside him and not behind him like 90% of the pilots in this game.
ALL WE WANT IS TO PAID CLOSE TO THE AVERAGE WAGE. Why do pilots have to live and struggle to support multi-million dollar companies??? The average wage is now around $55,000 dollars, a single engine casual pilot still struggles to get paid 20K, a FO for rex is on 43k, ......... WHY are we treated like second-rate workers????? Supply and demand maybe??? But look at the position we are in now, jobs galore but still no pay rise. WHY??????
The answer is simple; pilots have treated them selves and the profession they work in with disrespect. Basically excepting any conditions to build hours to reach the top of the tree. Instead of demanding certain conditions like the GA award they have worked below the poverty line, knowing if they don’t there will be 50 hungry dogs ready to pounce into their position.
In many ways I am embarrassed to be a member of this profession. I may cop criticism for that, but I look at other less glamorises jobs and see a united work force that is strong in keeping and gaining conditions.
Collectively, We are as weak as p…s.
So next time you see a pilot make a stance for better conditions try standing beside him and not behind him like 90% of the pilots in this game.
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COST OF CAPITAL
If a company with a similar risk profile can make more money - investors should place their money in that other company (ie no more airline)
ie Regional sells all assets and buys into an industry that provides a better return for the same level of risk.
To quote the former CEO of American Airlines (words to the effect): "Airlines are a great place to work.. but a horrible place to invest"
You should try check out the MSNBC documentary on a week in/with American Airlines.
LA to NY, full aircraft. The airline made $200 profit.
If a company with a similar risk profile can make more money - investors should place their money in that other company (ie no more airline)
ie Regional sells all assets and buys into an industry that provides a better return for the same level of risk.
To quote the former CEO of American Airlines (words to the effect): "Airlines are a great place to work.. but a horrible place to invest"
You should try check out the MSNBC documentary on a week in/with American Airlines.
LA to NY, full aircraft. The airline made $200 profit.
Maybe Airlines should start to ask the customer to pay more than the Taxi ride for a ticket? Maybe the CEO of Qantas shoudn't get paid anually what the entire pilot group wanted as a pay rise???
Maybe the airlines should have sufficent crews so flights aren't cancelled??
COST OF CAPITAL???? Why do train drivers get paid more??? Why do crane drivers get paid more??? It's got NOTHING to do with the Cost of Capital, but what we have sowly excepted in this COUNTRY. We are A JOKE.
A payrise a certain company pilots ask for was equal to .05 cents increase in fuel. And yes it was rejected, and the company I can assure you is paying alot more in fuel now.
Charliethewonderdog said:
The size or turnover of a company has nothing to do with how much it can afford to pay its employees.
What you meant to say there was "why aren't we paid more?".
I find it absolutely incredible that you and so many other posters to PPRUNE cannot see the answer when all you have to do is take a look around you. It is so obvious. Here is that answer:
There is very little money in aviation.
Commercial aviation is regarded as the world's "least most profitable business". This has been well known for over 50 years. When are you guys going to come to this realisation?
Why do pilots have to live and struggle to support multi-million dollar companies???
WHY are we treated like second-rate workers?????
I find it absolutely incredible that you and so many other posters to PPRUNE cannot see the answer when all you have to do is take a look around you. It is so obvious. Here is that answer:
There is very little money in aviation.
Commercial aviation is regarded as the world's "least most profitable business". This has been well known for over 50 years. When are you guys going to come to this realisation?
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There is very little money in aviation.
THERE IS PLENTY OF MONEY IN AVIATION.
You my friend are an absoulute TWIT. Infact if you have been given the responsibilty of manipulating and Aircraft God hep the poor souls on your "Aircraft".
Let me guess, you are 22 right?? everything paid for by mummy and daddy?? you are a ,I dare say it??? a c_____t
How about charging the public seat prices that are actually realistic? or supplying a product that the public are happy to pay for???
Charliethewonderdog,
Further to my statement "there is very little money in aviation", I quote the following passages from the excellent book "Qantas Flightpaths" by Geoffrey Thomas and Christine Forbes Smith. This is not the first time I have quoted these passages on PPRUNE:
The following is the quote that is most relevent to my statement:
One final quote, from C.R. Smith, President of American Airlines:
A Charliethewonderdog quote now:
It depends on what you mean by "realistic", but knowing you, this would probably mean something like double the current price.
With this sort of question, you would probably think that, whenever a country is a bit short of money, all it would need to do is print more.
If an aviation operator suddenly doubled their prices, the passengers would immediately cease flying with that operator. If there was another operator, they would fly with them instead. If there was no other operator, there soon would be (and their prices would be less than the original operators).
Surely that is all obvious to you.
Further to my statement "there is very little money in aviation", I quote the following passages from the excellent book "Qantas Flightpaths" by Geoffrey Thomas and Christine Forbes Smith. This is not the first time I have quoted these passages on PPRUNE:
It may be hard to believe but the airline industry is actually the world's least profitable industry. In 2000, the airlines had a good year with a turnover of $328 billion but a net profit of just $3.7 billion or just 1.1%. The industry's best year was in 1966, when it made 6.1% net profit, but in the past 30 years, most airline balance sheets have revealed losses of about 1.5% or profits of about the same order.
In fact, from 1947 to 2001 (54 years), the world scheduled airline industry has made a cumulative (and combined) net profit of $27 million. In comparison, Microsoft made a profit of $7.4 billion in 2001 alone.
These days no one can make money on the goddam airline business. The economics represent sheer hell.
How about charging the public seat prices that are actually realistic?
With this sort of question, you would probably think that, whenever a country is a bit short of money, all it would need to do is print more.
If an aviation operator suddenly doubled their prices, the passengers would immediately cease flying with that operator. If there was another operator, they would fly with them instead. If there was no other operator, there soon would be (and their prices would be less than the original operators).
Surely that is all obvious to you.
aircraft,
Free market guru that you are, you also realise that in order to make a profit, companies must charge enough for their products to cover their costs. These costs change according to market forces.
A good example is Fuel. Whatever the cost of fuel, airline have to pay it, or the jets don't fly.
Well, due to a shortage of supply, Pilots are becoming more expensive, and airlines unwilling to pay the higher price are finding themselves without another vital component of there aircraft- someone to fly it!
On the one hand, you try and give a value based assesment of what pilots should be paid, whilst then choosing to give us your delightfully simplistic views on the market economy...
Well, if airlines want pilots, they have to pay enough to attract them, or, as you say, someone else soon will.
Supply and demand buddy, supply and demand.
P.S sorry for feeding the troll guys!!!
Free market guru that you are, you also realise that in order to make a profit, companies must charge enough for their products to cover their costs. These costs change according to market forces.
A good example is Fuel. Whatever the cost of fuel, airline have to pay it, or the jets don't fly.
Well, due to a shortage of supply, Pilots are becoming more expensive, and airlines unwilling to pay the higher price are finding themselves without another vital component of there aircraft- someone to fly it!
On the one hand, you try and give a value based assesment of what pilots should be paid, whilst then choosing to give us your delightfully simplistic views on the market economy...
Well, if airlines want pilots, they have to pay enough to attract them, or, as you say, someone else soon will.
Supply and demand buddy, supply and demand.
P.S sorry for feeding the troll guys!!!
Wizofoz,
I don't think you actually said anything (other than the bleedingly obvious) in that post! Airlines need to pay more for pilots if pilots become scarce? Of course!
I don't think you actually said anything (other than the bleedingly obvious) in that post! Airlines need to pay more for pilots if pilots become scarce? Of course!
SO....
We go from this..
To this...
Go wind people up on a gardening forum would you....
We go from this..
What you meant to say there was "why aren't we paid more?".
I find it absolutely incredible that you and so many other posters to PPRUNE cannot see the answer when all you have to do is take a look around you. It is so obvious. Here is that answer:
There is very little money in aviation.
I find it absolutely incredible that you and so many other posters to PPRUNE cannot see the answer when all you have to do is take a look around you. It is so obvious. Here is that answer:
There is very little money in aviation.
Airlines need to pay more for pilots if pilots become scarce? Of course!
Havent read the whole thread but....
If every pilot went on strike in Australia for better conditions what would happen? These operators including the majors might actually realise that pilots are a necessity not a bean wating to be counted. When i fly in the back i feel sorry for the guys up front on QF link etc for the crap condtions and money they get paid.
I guess though every pilot does it for the passion and you would have to, for the amount of **** alot of people go through!
Guess it can only get better? or is that wishful thinking?
If every pilot went on strike in Australia for better conditions what would happen? These operators including the majors might actually realise that pilots are a necessity not a bean wating to be counted. When i fly in the back i feel sorry for the guys up front on QF link etc for the crap condtions and money they get paid.
I guess though every pilot does it for the passion and you would have to, for the amount of **** alot of people go through!
Guess it can only get better?
or is that wishful thinking?
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There is very little money in aviation.
Lets take a GA company running GA8 aircraft on scenics as an example. The aircraft costs somewhere between $150-250 an hour to run. The punters are being charged upto $200 per hour for a tour. The Aircraft seats 7 paying passenges so that means over $1000 per hour to cover non aircraft costs.
Don't tell me that is not a recipe to make money!
Therefore don't tell me that these operators can't pay a decent wage and hence this will flow onto airlines to pay a wage that betters this.
Pull your head in,
WAF
Show me where you can rent an eight-seater aircraft for $250/hr and I'll show you someone who's losing money hand over fist.
That $150-$250 p/h would be direct operating costs only. The reason you can't rent a six-seater for that is all the other things like overheads, depreciation, carriers' liability insurance etc. etc.
Anyone who's only looking at direct operating costs has already proved their commercial genius!
If it is a money printing machine that some people think, why can't we fly White and Fluffy Airlines?
If it is a money printing machine that some people think, why can't we fly White and Fluffy Airlines?