Congrats to the Pilots Who Stood Up For Reason
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Congrats to the Pilots Who Stood Up For Reason
I just saw this on the ABC web site - pilots standing up for reason at securitar check points. About time.
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/04/1969180.htm
I get frustrated when I see rubbish like this
when the evidence is clear that it is power that is their interest not securitar. The integrity of the system is everything - not the intended purpose of the system.
If their interest was securitar, then please tell me why cleaners are not subject to screening and pilots and flight attendants are. I know who I would trust more, as I do each time I fly.
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/04/1969180.htm
I get frustrated when I see rubbish like this
The Department of Transport and Regional Services has issued a brief written response to the matter.
"The Australian Government says to ensure the integrity of the system it is important that all persons travelling on screened air services, including pilots, submit themselves to aviation security screening," it says.
"The Australian Government says to ensure the integrity of the system it is important that all persons travelling on screened air services, including pilots, submit themselves to aviation security screening," it says.
If their interest was securitar, then please tell me why cleaners are not subject to screening and pilots and flight attendants are. I know who I would trust more, as I do each time I fly.
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They just dont get it.
We are sitting in a locked space, with all the aircraft controls right in front of us.... If a pilot did want to do something stupid, it would not involve a nail file, pocket knife or any other sort of weapon.
What is the point of having an ASIC if it doesnt mean anything anyway...
The Chef
We are sitting in a locked space, with all the aircraft controls right in front of us.... If a pilot did want to do something stupid, it would not involve a nail file, pocket knife or any other sort of weapon.
What is the point of having an ASIC if it doesnt mean anything anyway...
The Chef
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There definitely needs to be some common-sense (albeit a rather scarce resource) with regards security screening for pilots. Unfortunately individual protest of this nature is more likely to have a detrimental effect. The poor bugger has opened himself to the possibility of having his ASIC withdrawn -with obvious consequences. To achieve any level of sanity in this process, pilots will need to work towards it as a cohesive group -individually we can achieve nothing beyond opening ourselves to sanction. There would no doubt still be requirements to be met, but one would hope the ASIC which we pay for will be of some benefit, perhaps entitling us to less or lower levels of scrutiny.
Interesting that the politicians are legislating to allow themselves freedom from these onerous restrictions... personally I can't think of a group of individuals that deserves more stringent screening -any one of them would willingly sell their soul to the highest bidder if there was some advantage in it for them. Have they not considered that they are making themselves a prime target for those of nefarious intent, that their unresticted LAG's could be switched for substances less innocent? Why indeed should politicians be exempt from the requirements they impose upon everyone else?
Interesting that the politicians are legislating to allow themselves freedom from these onerous restrictions... personally I can't think of a group of individuals that deserves more stringent screening -any one of them would willingly sell their soul to the highest bidder if there was some advantage in it for them. Have they not considered that they are making themselves a prime target for those of nefarious intent, that their unresticted LAG's could be switched for substances less innocent? Why indeed should politicians be exempt from the requirements they impose upon everyone else?
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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One can only hope that this is the start of some sanity being brought into play. THe screening regs in relation to aircrew are a joke, clearly thought up by a group with little or no experience in aviation and palmed off to the minister and GG for signing off.
Akmark, not only cleaners but engineers, airline employees and airport employees can board an aircraft without being screened. So long as they themselves are not departing on that aircraft.
Oh and nice one Peter Somerville being quoted as saying that pilots should be subject to the same security screening as passengers. Why? WHat does it achieve? You spineless prat! It's a joke, Somerville knows it's a joke, DOTARS know it's a joke, the pilots always knew it was a joke but the public keep getting fooled. If the likes of Somerville won't stand up when given the opportunity to show this particular part of the regs to be a croc then unfortunately we may be in for a bit of a long haul yet.
Akmark, not only cleaners but engineers, airline employees and airport employees can board an aircraft without being screened. So long as they themselves are not departing on that aircraft.
Oh and nice one Peter Somerville being quoted as saying that pilots should be subject to the same security screening as passengers. Why? WHat does it achieve? You spineless prat! It's a joke, Somerville knows it's a joke, DOTARS know it's a joke, the pilots always knew it was a joke but the public keep getting fooled. If the likes of Somerville won't stand up when given the opportunity to show this particular part of the regs to be a croc then unfortunately we may be in for a bit of a long haul yet.
Evertonian
Its a simple matter of trust really. Who do you trust more, cleaners or Pilots?
(I know my answer, but I don't want to prejudice others' responses!)
(I know my answer, but I don't want to prejudice others' responses!)
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John Borghetti said all employees are subject to the same stringent security screenings as all other travellers.
That is not the way to achieve optimum safety, and makes you wonder why aircrew are screened so severely while other employees are not screened at all. Public perception? Power trip by DOTARS? A little evil pleasure from some management types at the daily inconveniece this causes crew?
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I understand the frustration, but I don't suppose it occured to the Capt God, that the "alarm" and his subsequent behaviour might have caused a concern even some fright amongst the surrounding fellow travellers/passengers.
He is, as part of his duties, supposed to impart confidence not fear into his passengers, he is supposed to be setting an example as an aviation professional.
WE are ALL in this together and cannot be too vigilant. It's all a matter of attitude, so get with the programme eh, or get out.
I guess he would also have to deal with the other one in the cockpit.
As a passenger and a pilot I could think of any number of ways to defeat the security without bringing anything on board, we all know that, but at least we can remove or eliminate the more obvious ones. Recent TV shows CCTV footage of the hijackers buying a Stanley boxcutter prior to those flights. For example, was it the boxcutter or the people who brought the holocaust? Both, but it was the boxcutter that made it all so easy. In determined hands they are a lethal weapon, do we therefore ban their sale, of course not because a number of industries would probably come to a standstill, but we can assure that they are not available in places they should not be.
He is, as part of his duties, supposed to impart confidence not fear into his passengers, he is supposed to be setting an example as an aviation professional.
WE are ALL in this together and cannot be too vigilant. It's all a matter of attitude, so get with the programme eh, or get out.
If a pilot did want to do something stupid,
As a passenger and a pilot I could think of any number of ways to defeat the security without bringing anything on board, we all know that, but at least we can remove or eliminate the more obvious ones. Recent TV shows CCTV footage of the hijackers buying a Stanley boxcutter prior to those flights. For example, was it the boxcutter or the people who brought the holocaust? Both, but it was the boxcutter that made it all so easy. In determined hands they are a lethal weapon, do we therefore ban their sale, of course not because a number of industries would probably come to a standstill, but we can assure that they are not available in places they should not be.
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but we can assure that they are not available in places they should not be.
No one is saying pilots should be treated differently to other employees; we're saying it would be nice to be treated the same!
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For crying out loud, Gaunty, once upon a time pilots were not foreced through the passenger screening points; they went through the side gates/security points..... just like 95% of airside workers CONTINUE to do. The passengers never saw the pilots! So there was never going to be a potential "scene" in front of passengers.
I'll say it again: 95% of airside workers still go through side gates where their ID's are checked but there is no comprehensive screening for metal, other prohibited items or even, wait for it, water!
You're childish "Capt God" expression is way out of place. Pilots are sick and tired of being treated DIFFERENTLY to all other aviation workers. We are sick of being treated with more suspicion by virtue being dragged through the passenger security points. We are minimal risks (a) because our ongoing security checks and (b) we have everything to lose. Meanwhile people with nothing to lose should an aircraft go down are avoiding screening - because "it's all too hard to implement" in Australia.
It should go back to the way it was before - drive crew straight to the aircraft after passing through the airside check point. And that way if a naughty pilot was "trying to hand something off to a pax on another flight", well he couldn't!
And THIS what ASICs should be really about - regular security background checks on people such as airline pilots and airside workers at MAJOR airports. Once you have it then there goes with it a level of trust. As opposed to wasting God knows how much in time/money/resources making every SPL upwards in Australia carry one (or AVID) for when he flies into Horn Island...! And consequently the ASIC/AVID ends up meaning virtually nothing, with no trust associated with it.
"Capt God"...... mate, wake up to what's going on out there.
FFS
I'll say it again: 95% of airside workers still go through side gates where their ID's are checked but there is no comprehensive screening for metal, other prohibited items or even, wait for it, water!
You're childish "Capt God" expression is way out of place. Pilots are sick and tired of being treated DIFFERENTLY to all other aviation workers. We are sick of being treated with more suspicion by virtue being dragged through the passenger security points. We are minimal risks (a) because our ongoing security checks and (b) we have everything to lose. Meanwhile people with nothing to lose should an aircraft go down are avoiding screening - because "it's all too hard to implement" in Australia.
It should go back to the way it was before - drive crew straight to the aircraft after passing through the airside check point. And that way if a naughty pilot was "trying to hand something off to a pax on another flight", well he couldn't!
And THIS what ASICs should be really about - regular security background checks on people such as airline pilots and airside workers at MAJOR airports. Once you have it then there goes with it a level of trust. As opposed to wasting God knows how much in time/money/resources making every SPL upwards in Australia carry one (or AVID) for when he flies into Horn Island...! And consequently the ASIC/AVID ends up meaning virtually nothing, with no trust associated with it.
"Capt God"...... mate, wake up to what's going on out there.
FFS
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I guess he would also have to deal with the other one in the cockpit.
Also why are AFP allowed through with guns? Surely they are just as untrustworthy as pilots.......
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Blueloo. Completely agree. Never seen them ID checked either just after they set all those alarms off.
The debate is over anyway. Kerry-Anne and her panel of experts discussed this today and they all agree that pilots should be screened. Problem solved, Kerry - Thanks.
P.S. I don't usually watch her, this segement just caught my eye....really!
The debate is over anyway. Kerry-Anne and her panel of experts discussed this today and they all agree that pilots should be screened. Problem solved, Kerry - Thanks.
P.S. I don't usually watch her, this segement just caught my eye....really!
Last edited by vh_ajm; 4th Jul 2007 at 03:45. Reason: P.S. Added
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Unfortunately every time I hear about someone arguing with airport security, I'm reminded of this: "Never wrestle with a pig. You just get all muddy, and the pig enjoys it."
Although as long as Kerry-Anne's on the case I feel much better.
Although as long as Kerry-Anne's on the case I feel much better.
everything !!
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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If the opinion of Kerry Anne Kennel has any sway whatsoever in this debate, I'd get out of this industry now.
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only a few days ago...........screener was training a new wannabe hitler and my nav bag goes thru the machine and the young walker texas ranger points out to his mentor that I have knife in my nav bag (in front of pax being screened). Slightly embarrassed I quickly think, did I take my kitchen knife out after whipping up some sushimi on board last flight? (just kidding) No, he says, thats the edge of these guys flying binder that looks like a knife. (in front of pax again) asks me to pull it out shows young wannabe and gives a few onlookers a few ideas on where to stash prospective sharp edge and then tells wannabe that 'we let those go thru'. After 7 min of stuffing around I go on my way but not before being explosive tested and becoming as happy as a bastard on fathers day.
Damn rediculous if you ask me.
Damn rediculous if you ask me.
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Ron & Edna Johns
Settle down old chap, read my opening words and my second paragraph.
I know precisely what's going on out there and I dont like it any more than do you, but, as Spaghetti Monster suggests,
.
Causing a scene at a public screening point:
does nothing apart from exacerbating it, to solve the problem.
The public and the screeners look to Capt God and his acolytes and anybody else in unform and/or wearing an ASIC for that matter for mature leadership. They aren't all that happy about it either, so when they see someone who they think should be supportive of the security effort bucking them, well "monkey see monkey do" and "pig wrestling" becomes vogue.
The screeners are just doing as they are told and it is, apart from frightening the horses, childish and petulant to take it out on them.
If you want to be treated differently, and I entirely agree BTW that we should be, than the other airside workers then you should as a group be behaving so.
It is Government policy, take it up with them. I am, through the high level forums available to me. The message we get is that until the Government change the policy they cant. If you're not happy with that, then you like I, have the opportunity to change the Government if you think the alternative will give you what you want. I wouldn't bet on it, but we must keep at it until there is a reasonable solution.
In the meantime, I guess it's a matter of personal attitude, hence my reference to Capt God who if in the circumstances described did cause a scene deserves the apellation.
I am in and out of Domestic and International airport terminals landside to airside and on and off aircraft with TAC card access to most areas, sometimes dozens of times daily. And yes I set the alarm off occasionally if I forget to put my mobile or 2 way through and if I happen to be wearing a pair of "those" shoes. NO biggie, and they are not picking on me personally, an apology a smile and I'm on my way. And yes I have to show my ASIC the same dozens of times to the same security guys too. "They" are just doing their job and it must be hellish boring AND I find them all polite and helpfull when there is a problem.
A smile and a bit of understanding might make their day and your safety go a whole lot easier. It's like checklists as a pilot and cabin safety briefings as a passenger, I've never skipped one ever nor not paid attention to one or the other. Ask your FAs on the next flight how they feel about and handle the bored and rude pax who wont pay attention.
Settle down old chap, read my opening words and my second paragraph.
I know precisely what's going on out there and I dont like it any more than do you, but, as Spaghetti Monster suggests,
"Never wrestle with a pig. You just get all muddy, and the pig enjoys it."
Causing a scene at a public screening point:
Last Tuesday was much like any other day at Darwin Airport, but when a Qantas captain set off security alarms, people around him could not help but notice......
The public and the screeners look to Capt God and his acolytes and anybody else in unform and/or wearing an ASIC for that matter for mature leadership. They aren't all that happy about it either, so when they see someone who they think should be supportive of the security effort bucking them, well "monkey see monkey do" and "pig wrestling" becomes vogue.
The screeners are just doing as they are told and it is, apart from frightening the horses, childish and petulant to take it out on them.
If you want to be treated differently, and I entirely agree BTW that we should be, than the other airside workers then you should as a group be behaving so.
It is Government policy, take it up with them. I am, through the high level forums available to me. The message we get is that until the Government change the policy they cant. If you're not happy with that, then you like I, have the opportunity to change the Government if you think the alternative will give you what you want. I wouldn't bet on it, but we must keep at it until there is a reasonable solution.
In the meantime, I guess it's a matter of personal attitude, hence my reference to Capt God who if in the circumstances described did cause a scene deserves the apellation.
I am in and out of Domestic and International airport terminals landside to airside and on and off aircraft with TAC card access to most areas, sometimes dozens of times daily. And yes I set the alarm off occasionally if I forget to put my mobile or 2 way through and if I happen to be wearing a pair of "those" shoes. NO biggie, and they are not picking on me personally, an apology a smile and I'm on my way. And yes I have to show my ASIC the same dozens of times to the same security guys too. "They" are just doing their job and it must be hellish boring AND I find them all polite and helpfull when there is a problem.
A smile and a bit of understanding might make their day and your safety go a whole lot easier. It's like checklists as a pilot and cabin safety briefings as a passenger, I've never skipped one ever nor not paid attention to one or the other. Ask your FAs on the next flight how they feel about and handle the bored and rude pax who wont pay attention.
Bottums Up
Sorry Gaunty, I've got to disagree with you here. They're not just doing their job.
The standard varies from day to day, from place to place. At Cairns for instance, I never have to remove my RMs. At Alice, almost all the time.
At Darwin, Mr Chubb sensing my increasing frustration at having damn near stripped, and about to remove my watch, walks up to me and says, "sir you can beat this, spread your arms (one forward one aft) and take a big step through the detector". This procedure works well. BUT if you do it at Alice, they'll rudely tell one off, and write a letter of complaint to one's employer.
Also at Alice, one female colleague has had her bra patted sown because the under-wire set off the alarm. This was despite asking not to be touched. Another female colleague has had her underwear rifled in the guise of an ETD, another female threatened with "I should go through your bag but you're crew so I won't". In the last example, the pregnant female was ETD'd immediately after me, I received no such threat!
Late last year I received written approval to carry jeweller's screwdrivers to adjust my headset. After 5 months and about 60 odd screenings with no question, one of these people just doing their job decided I couldn't carry them. This, despite passing though the very same check point only days earlier.
The public don't have to see the pilots and cabin crew being screened. Most pax that have spoken to me about it believe the concept of crew being checked is stupid. I'm in vehement agreement with those above who have noted that the cleaners, baggies, caterers, ramp personnel and caterers aren't screened, so why can't we access the aeroplane in the same manner.
Though no longer based in Darwin, it was usual practice to board the aircraft only to find the catering supervisor seated, reading the paper, unscreened and unsupervised. And, he'd been there for up to half an hour!
If my ASIC doesn't get me to the aircraft without the rigmarole, why have it? And on a doomsday note. When the next economic downturn comes, as it surely will, I believe aviation will be hit harder than it has in the past, because it won't be able to support the exorbitant cost currently foisted on it.
I long for a collective emulation of Ghandi, where all pilots world wide refuse to acquiesce.
I look forward to the next coming of Santa too. 
The standard varies from day to day, from place to place. At Cairns for instance, I never have to remove my RMs. At Alice, almost all the time.
At Darwin, Mr Chubb sensing my increasing frustration at having damn near stripped, and about to remove my watch, walks up to me and says, "sir you can beat this, spread your arms (one forward one aft) and take a big step through the detector". This procedure works well. BUT if you do it at Alice, they'll rudely tell one off, and write a letter of complaint to one's employer.
Also at Alice, one female colleague has had her bra patted sown because the under-wire set off the alarm. This was despite asking not to be touched. Another female colleague has had her underwear rifled in the guise of an ETD, another female threatened with "I should go through your bag but you're crew so I won't". In the last example, the pregnant female was ETD'd immediately after me, I received no such threat!
Late last year I received written approval to carry jeweller's screwdrivers to adjust my headset. After 5 months and about 60 odd screenings with no question, one of these people just doing their job decided I couldn't carry them. This, despite passing though the very same check point only days earlier.
The public don't have to see the pilots and cabin crew being screened. Most pax that have spoken to me about it believe the concept of crew being checked is stupid. I'm in vehement agreement with those above who have noted that the cleaners, baggies, caterers, ramp personnel and caterers aren't screened, so why can't we access the aeroplane in the same manner.
Though no longer based in Darwin, it was usual practice to board the aircraft only to find the catering supervisor seated, reading the paper, unscreened and unsupervised. And, he'd been there for up to half an hour!
If my ASIC doesn't get me to the aircraft without the rigmarole, why have it? And on a doomsday note. When the next economic downturn comes, as it surely will, I believe aviation will be hit harder than it has in the past, because it won't be able to support the exorbitant cost currently foisted on it.
I long for a collective emulation of Ghandi, where all pilots world wide refuse to acquiesce.
I look forward to the next coming of Santa too.
Look at some of the people doing the screening, minimum education low wage earners suddenly given massive authority. A lot of them are more suited to putting wheel clamps on cars. And we entrust our security to them, shouldn't be too hard to get an ASIC as long as you haven't been caught doing anything wrong yet.
Let's have some sense applied re crew screening, remember when one pilot leaves the cockpit the other is in sole charge behind a locked door. Not to mention the crash axe we have easy access to.
Let's have some sense applied re crew screening, remember when one pilot leaves the cockpit the other is in sole charge behind a locked door. Not to mention the crash axe we have easy access to.
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Gaunty, your second para is absolutely correct. And it does not enhance passengers' confidence to see a Captain being undressed in public because he's set off the detector. Seeing a Captain having epaulettes, belt, wings, shoes removed to figure out why he's beeping is un-nerving for the pax. They have TOLD me so. "This bloke is about to fly our plane - what's wrong?"
It is insulting. It is demeaning - the Captain of a plane being de-uniformed in public daily. It is not a "God" thing, it is a courtesy, respect thing. Especially considering the catering staff are driving unscreened trucks up to the plane. What is actually in that cart they just put in the galley? The Captain of an aircraft (and indeed the copilot) has earned that trust via backgorund checking for the ASIC. The message daily is "we don't trust you and we'll show your passengers we don't trust you."
Safety is unmeasurably being affected since many crews are so pi$$ed off as they arrive on the flightdeck. The "security" enhancement to safety does not offset that.
That's why I get jacked off with stupid expressions such as "Captain God" on this site. So give it a rest. Crikey, I don't think I'm a God but I do believe I'm entitled to a little more respect and trust - TRUST - than a passenger or the catering driver for that matter. Anything otherwise is damaging to morale, and by extension, affects safety in the long run.
(PS - went through BNE security the other day with my left arm raised ahead of me - wanted to see if my watch actually was the beeping culprit. A "security" woman screamed at me to go back and walk through "normally". What the....? Suitably humiliated and chastened, and without a word, I humbly obeyed her command. Tell me - does THAT instill confidence in passengers to see that sort of behaviour, and does it help or hinder a Captain's focus on the job ahead?)
It is insulting. It is demeaning - the Captain of a plane being de-uniformed in public daily. It is not a "God" thing, it is a courtesy, respect thing. Especially considering the catering staff are driving unscreened trucks up to the plane. What is actually in that cart they just put in the galley? The Captain of an aircraft (and indeed the copilot) has earned that trust via backgorund checking for the ASIC. The message daily is "we don't trust you and we'll show your passengers we don't trust you."
Safety is unmeasurably being affected since many crews are so pi$$ed off as they arrive on the flightdeck. The "security" enhancement to safety does not offset that.
That's why I get jacked off with stupid expressions such as "Captain God" on this site. So give it a rest. Crikey, I don't think I'm a God but I do believe I'm entitled to a little more respect and trust - TRUST - than a passenger or the catering driver for that matter. Anything otherwise is damaging to morale, and by extension, affects safety in the long run.
(PS - went through BNE security the other day with my left arm raised ahead of me - wanted to see if my watch actually was the beeping culprit. A "security" woman screamed at me to go back and walk through "normally". What the....? Suitably humiliated and chastened, and without a word, I humbly obeyed her command. Tell me - does THAT instill confidence in passengers to see that sort of behaviour, and does it help or hinder a Captain's focus on the job ahead?)
Last edited by Ron & Edna Johns; 4th Jul 2007 at 06:23.