Congrats to the Pilots Who Stood Up For Reason
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Ozbiggles...."pilot sympathetic to my cause to smuggle something through and pass it on to my evil doers inside the terminal."
I guess you could possibly be in security. Chaps of that ilk tend to think up and install the most remotely plausible scenarios, no matter how unhinged, deranged or obsessively pedantic.
Now in may be a 1 in a millon.
hang on a minute. Millon? Millon? that name rings a bell.
http://www.millon.net/content/tm_vita.htm
Reflecting an insidious and slow deterioration of the personality structure, these differ from the basic personality disorders by several criteria, notably, deficits in social competence and frequent (but usually reversible) psychotic episodes.
mmmm I see. Your diagnosis? ......Schizotypal, Borderline Paranoid
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Ozbiggles, how would Osama use a sympathetic pilot to smuggle something inside a terminal to pass onto his evil-doers if the pilot does security checks elsewhere away from the pax, and if the pilot's ID, background, associates, etc etc is thoroughly known and checked out?
If the background checks are so bad that there are airline pilots out there who are truly sympathetic to Osama, we are already in a whole, whole lot of trouble. Why would the sympathetic pilot not just simply say: "Sami baby, mate, gather all your evil-doers around at 8pm tonight and we'll go over what you need to do to get cockpit access and get another of your missile-airliners happening....."? Or: "Sami baby, this is how you can gain backdoor access and fill your boots with whatever you want to do inside the terminal"? Or: "Sami baby, these are items/fittings you can use as weapons on the plane and you can find them here, here, and here"? Why would the pilot carry it through himself, unless he was a suicide/fanatical sympathiser? In which case, you're really screwed either way.
I realise you are trying to come up with examples as to why the checks should be the same as the passenger ones, but my point stands:
TARGETED checks for pilots (especially ID and background). Confiscating the Captain's wrinkle cream is barking up the wrong tree and losing sight of reality. Which is indeed what is happening, as no-one has ever truly checked who I am or whether I'm meant to be there before getting to the cockpit!
EDIT: Ummm, PAF, why haven't they already tried this with the other workers over the past 6 years who have airside access without been screened properly?
Anyway, we are not talking about explosive widgets here PAF. Explosive tests are another thing, and they are random. We are talking about roll-on deodorant, tweezers, whatever (and if I wanted to get nasty explo on, I would take it on in less than 100ml/g components - no filthy pilot Bid Laden sympathiser required). The "bits" that they don't want you carrying on so that you can't force your way into the cockpit are what I'm talking about. Pilots are already there. They are superfluous!
If the background checks are so bad that there are airline pilots out there who are truly sympathetic to Osama, we are already in a whole, whole lot of trouble. Why would the sympathetic pilot not just simply say: "Sami baby, mate, gather all your evil-doers around at 8pm tonight and we'll go over what you need to do to get cockpit access and get another of your missile-airliners happening....."? Or: "Sami baby, this is how you can gain backdoor access and fill your boots with whatever you want to do inside the terminal"? Or: "Sami baby, these are items/fittings you can use as weapons on the plane and you can find them here, here, and here"? Why would the pilot carry it through himself, unless he was a suicide/fanatical sympathiser? In which case, you're really screwed either way.
I realise you are trying to come up with examples as to why the checks should be the same as the passenger ones, but my point stands:
TARGETED checks for pilots (especially ID and background). Confiscating the Captain's wrinkle cream is barking up the wrong tree and losing sight of reality. Which is indeed what is happening, as no-one has ever truly checked who I am or whether I'm meant to be there before getting to the cockpit!
EDIT: Ummm, PAF, why haven't they already tried this with the other workers over the past 6 years who have airside access without been screened properly?
Anyway, we are not talking about explosive widgets here PAF. Explosive tests are another thing, and they are random. We are talking about roll-on deodorant, tweezers, whatever (and if I wanted to get nasty explo on, I would take it on in less than 100ml/g components - no filthy pilot Bid Laden sympathiser required). The "bits" that they don't want you carrying on so that you can't force your way into the cockpit are what I'm talking about. Pilots are already there. They are superfluous!
Last edited by DutchRoll; 6th Jul 2007 at 11:53.
Come on people...its in revelations! Kent Brockman.
wynsock, I don't need medicine to be borderline, just add alcohol!
If you are saying Pilots can be screened elsewhere I have no problems with that at all. It will probably cost more however. i havent had to make up any scenarios. There are plenty out there, FEDEX is my prime example there were somemore incidents mentioned on page 4 too. Holes in the security system is always going to be like the James Reason swiss cheese thing. You just need to have enough defences to cover, i fully agree there are holes in the system
Now people who say there is plenty of stuff on board that is true. However someone reaching for that weapon may spark enough warning, I'm sure someone unclipping the fire axe may attract some attention and give you some warning. I think I would prefer to take on someone with a fire bottle than a knife as well. Particularly when I don't see the knife coming.
Heres one of my wilder scenarios. Someone hijacks four a/c at once, on a one way suicide mission to take out downtown NY, crazy, implausible stuff I know. If you are ever have the chance and maybe you have, visit ground zero, read all the names, see the a/c wreakage on display on the aircraft carrier in town and wonder how the world got to this point. Taking my shoes off at a checkpoint seems a small price to pay for trying to prevent anything like that again.
wynsock, I don't need medicine to be borderline, just add alcohol!
If you are saying Pilots can be screened elsewhere I have no problems with that at all. It will probably cost more however. i havent had to make up any scenarios. There are plenty out there, FEDEX is my prime example there were somemore incidents mentioned on page 4 too. Holes in the security system is always going to be like the James Reason swiss cheese thing. You just need to have enough defences to cover, i fully agree there are holes in the system
Now people who say there is plenty of stuff on board that is true. However someone reaching for that weapon may spark enough warning, I'm sure someone unclipping the fire axe may attract some attention and give you some warning. I think I would prefer to take on someone with a fire bottle than a knife as well. Particularly when I don't see the knife coming.
Heres one of my wilder scenarios. Someone hijacks four a/c at once, on a one way suicide mission to take out downtown NY, crazy, implausible stuff I know. If you are ever have the chance and maybe you have, visit ground zero, read all the names, see the a/c wreakage on display on the aircraft carrier in town and wonder how the world got to this point. Taking my shoes off at a checkpoint seems a small price to pay for trying to prevent anything like that again.
Oz Biggles.
Explain to me how someONE can hijack 4 aircraft at once!
The other point you keep harping on is FEDEX. Help me here, because to my recollection the guy who went ape-ship on that was there leagally and used implements on board the aircraft. How was any level of physical screening going to stop him. Or perhaps we should all undergo a full psychological assessment prior to committing aviation.
Give us abreak!
Maui
Explain to me how someONE can hijack 4 aircraft at once!
The other point you keep harping on is FEDEX. Help me here, because to my recollection the guy who went ape-ship on that was there leagally and used implements on board the aircraft. How was any level of physical screening going to stop him. Or perhaps we should all undergo a full psychological assessment prior to committing aviation.
Give us abreak!
Maui
Maui, I'm not even going to bother with your interpretation of someone. Yes I will, the someone who organised it ie Osama Bl
I gave you the place to find out the FACTS of the incident I refer too. Take you two minutes to read.
Now take your shoes off Sir and put your bag through the xray machine.
.
PS - Who's the us you refer to, do you mean give you a break or do you have a collective you speak for....watch as well please...
I gave you the place to find out the FACTS of the incident I refer too. Take you two minutes to read.
Now take your shoes off Sir and put your bag through the xray machine.
.
PS - Who's the us you refer to, do you mean give you a break or do you have a collective you speak for....watch as well please...
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ozbiggles, you're not another paranoid American are you?
Would being tougher on the pilot's screening have prevented 9/11?
I think you've missed the point completely. I suspect you may infact, be one of the very security guards pissing us all off.
Would being tougher on the pilot's screening have prevented 9/11?
I think you've missed the point completely. I suspect you may infact, be one of the very security guards pissing us all off.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Pilot gets the wave through security, un-scanned.
Pilot walks up to mate who is pax on other side of security.
Hands Pax widget to blow up aircraft (not same aircraft pilot is on).
Pax get's on plane and uses widget to blow up aircraft.
Security and Federal Police at a loss to work out how widget got through security.
Pilot walks up to mate who is pax on other side of security.
Hands Pax widget to blow up aircraft (not same aircraft pilot is on).
Pax get's on plane and uses widget to blow up aircraft.
Security and Federal Police at a loss to work out how widget got through security.
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Islander Jock, fair point.
Don't be too alarmed though ADF pers get their fair share of ridiculous security measures. The RAAF won't even let pax board with a leatherman or pocketknife. Never quite grasped that one, hold on to your rifle, but if you had a leatherman or pocket knife you had to hand them to the loadie for the duration of the flight.
I guess they're worried about the backlash when the in flight meals are opened.
S64
Don't be too alarmed though ADF pers get their fair share of ridiculous security measures. The RAAF won't even let pax board with a leatherman or pocketknife. Never quite grasped that one, hold on to your rifle, but if you had a leatherman or pocket knife you had to hand them to the loadie for the duration of the flight.
I guess they're worried about the backlash when the in flight meals are opened.
S64
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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S64,
Yeah mate I know what you mean. Used to make me cry when I'd open my inlight meal box of sandwiches of processed meat and a mueslie bar whilst the fragrant smell of curries or pasta frozos wafted down from the oven on the flight deck of the C130.
Yeah mate I know what you mean. Used to make me cry when I'd open my inlight meal box of sandwiches of processed meat and a mueslie bar whilst the fragrant smell of curries or pasta frozos wafted down from the oven on the flight deck of the C130.
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Sorry if it missed it somewhere but surely we should be writing our concerns and addressing them to the appropriate Minister in CBR. If then we are unsatisfied I am sure that there is a journalist out there who is reading these posts who would be happy to publish our concerns.
The perception of public safety is all that is happening at the moment. I wonder in the USA or UK if there is just the same perception or whether they actually have a better system in place. They surely have more to worry about in those two countries seeing as actual terrorist attacks have happened as opposed to our current governments fear of what may happen hear in OZ.
www.markvaile.com.au Minister
www.martinferguson.com.au Shadow Minister
The perception of public safety is all that is happening at the moment. I wonder in the USA or UK if there is just the same perception or whether they actually have a better system in place. They surely have more to worry about in those two countries seeing as actual terrorist attacks have happened as opposed to our current governments fear of what may happen hear in OZ.
www.markvaile.com.au Minister
www.martinferguson.com.au Shadow Minister
Last edited by wirgin blew; 7th Jul 2007 at 04:48.
Don Quixote Impersonator
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Super 64 mate don't you realise how hard it is to cut somebodies throat with a rifle. that's why they're OK but Leathermen and pocket knives aren't.
tsk tsk tsk.
ROTFLMAO
IJ In the good old days he would have been shot. End of story, now I spose he'll get free psychiatric counselling and medically discharged with a disability pension. The worlds gone mad.
ve haf vays of getting even mein freund. Sooner or later they will have to RON. 
Any way you must have enough FF points to get an upgrade to Business Class surely.
that's why they're OK but Leathermen and pocket knives aren't. tsk tsk tsk.
I guess they're worried about the backlash when the in flight meals are opened.
IJ In the good old days he would have been shot. End of story, now I spose he'll get free psychiatric counselling and medically discharged with a disability pension. The worlds gone mad.
the fragrant smell of curries or pasta frozos wafted down from the oven on the flight deck of the C130.
Any way you must have enough FF points to get an upgrade to Business Class surely.
Cryten, wrong on all counts
Whos the us you speak for? speak for yourself.
I never said the checks should be any tougher than the pax get. The same system makes sense as its already in place for everyone to use. If you want to have a red carpet one out the back for the crew so be it, but it might cost more!
I do struggle to see what all the fuss is about. I don't like having to do it, I don't like the holes in the system but as the add says rulz is rulz and it is just one extra barrier/deterrent to prevent bad things happening on aircraft.
Whos the us you speak for? speak for yourself.
I never said the checks should be any tougher than the pax get. The same system makes sense as its already in place for everyone to use. If you want to have a red carpet one out the back for the crew so be it, but it might cost more!
I do struggle to see what all the fuss is about. I don't like having to do it, I don't like the holes in the system but as the add says rulz is rulz and it is just one extra barrier/deterrent to prevent bad things happening on aircraft.
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Then to use that logic, perhaps the section of ATSRs exempting ADF personnel to be screened should be removed.
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Originally Posted by Pass A Frozo
Pilot gets the wave through security, un-scanned.
Pilot walks up to mate who is pax on other side of security.
Hands Pax widget to blow up aircraft (not same aircraft pilot is on).
Pax get's on plane and uses widget to blow up aircraft.
Security and Federal Police at a loss to work out how widget got through security.
Pilot walks up to mate who is pax on other side of security.
Hands Pax widget to blow up aircraft (not same aircraft pilot is on).
Pax get's on plane and uses widget to blow up aircraft.
Security and Federal Police at a loss to work out how widget got through security.
Sky Marshall gets the wave through security, un-scanned.
Sky Marshall walks up to mate who is pax on other side of security.
Hands pax gun and ammo.
Pax shoots another passenger then crew. Shoots Captain coming out for stretch. Shoots dead surprised FO in seat. Crashes plane. Security and Federal Police at a loss to explain tragedy.
Couldn't possibly happen? Aldrich Ames was a CIA traitor who devastated their Russian spy network in the 80s resulting in the execution of dozens. At some point, you have to accept some risk. There might be a one in a billion chance that the person you've so thoroughly checked out may actually be a bad guy.
Security checks have to be tailored according to the roles of the people you are letting on.
Pax: yep, absolutely nothing which could be used as a weapon, as they don't do background checks.
Sky Marshalls: Separate screening, according to their role.
Pilots: Separate screening. Less attention to whether they have a half empty tube of toothpaste technically exceeding the limit or nail clippers, more attention to who they are and whether they're supposed to be there.
It ain't that hard.
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Pilots: Separate screening. Less attention to whether they have a half empty tube of toothpaste technically exceeding the limit or nail clippers, more attention to who they are and whether they're supposed to be there.
It ain't that hard.
It ain't that hard.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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fallen,
You are absolutely right and I should have clarified my point.
It has already been said time and time again. Nothing found on a pilot at a screening point is going to prevent him or her doing harm to an aircraft or passengers.
You are absolutely right and I should have clarified my point.
It has already been said time and time again. Nothing found on a pilot at a screening point is going to prevent him or her doing harm to an aircraft or passengers.
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Oops!
The whole screening process for aircrew is theatre...nothing more nothing less.
The "weapons" available to crew members on any airliner are numerous.
Will someone please tell the knuckle draggers?
The "weapons" available to crew members on any airliner are numerous.
Will someone please tell the knuckle draggers?
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Quote......"But hey what do I know I'm just a student Pilot."
from my experience...student pilots know everything
Ace......and one day you wont be a student pilot....you,ll be just like us
hell,we would piss and moan if they used an old rope to hang us!!!!!
Seriously..there is a lot being done,by the likes of pilots etc....but the wheels of change come very slowly with Govts involved
from my experience...student pilots know everything
Ace......and one day you wont be a student pilot....you,ll be just like us
hell,we would piss and moan if they used an old rope to hang us!!!!!
Seriously..there is a lot being done,by the likes of pilots etc....but the wheels of change come very slowly with Govts involved