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AIPA to represent ALL Qantas Group Pilots

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AIPA to represent ALL Qantas Group Pilots

Old 12th Jun 2007, 23:35
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Snafu it would actually be twenty five past three. Lucky you've got controllers reading this site. Time check.
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Old 12th Jun 2007, 23:47
  #62 (permalink)  
Keg

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Talking

Good thing you controllers can tell the time Max because a few of you can't spell to save yourselves. I recently asked one to spell whiteboard and it came back as whitboard. Hope his controlling is better than his spelling.

Be very afraid YPJT.....he's coming to an SMC near you soon!
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Old 13th Jun 2007, 00:51
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Lucky the time is digital in the tower then eh
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Old 13th Jun 2007, 23:45
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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wayne_king you have yet again missed the point,you need some assistance in dealing with reality.
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Old 14th Jun 2007, 06:53
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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For the sake of completeness (not an opinion) here is the direct words from the transcript by Justice Giudice last week found at paras 327-328 Page 40:
"These are appeals against a decision given by Kaufman SDP on 23 May 2007 in relation to an application by the Australian and International Pilots Association to amend its eligibility rule. I have concluded on the basis of the submissions today that there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted to appeal and that the appeal would succeed.
The issue described generally as an irreconcilable conflict of interest between the pilot groups referred to in much of the evidence looms large in the decision. It is arguable the decision is erroneous in relation to the manner in which the evidence and submissions on that question were dealt with. The issue also has significance from the perspective of the employers involved and the public because of the possibility of demarcation disputes which may not have been properly taken into account. There may be other grounds upon which it might be concluded that there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted and that the appeal would succeed, but it is not necessary that I go beyond the one I have identified."
Please note my emphasis in the first para.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
PS - Keg it is not my case it is an APIA application and that has been the problem from the start. How do you sit down with someone who has proceedings on foot. We thought long and hard about it including the night we sat down with AIPA leaders a couple of days before the hearing started but were told the COM would not support an adjournment to enable those talks to continue.
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Old 14th Jun 2007, 10:14
  #66 (permalink)  
Keg

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Thumbs up

Fair enough Lawrie. Perhaps those talks can continue now.

In the mean time, this was posted on Qrewroom. I reproduce it here without further comment.

Dear Colleague,

Re: Application for Membership in AIPA

The coverage of AIPA has been extended by order of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission made on 13 June 2007 to include airline pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.

AIPA will receive and welcome applications for membership from all pilots in these categories.

Those who have already signed applications are asked to do so again in order to remove any argument by Qantas/AFAP that those applications were invalid or are not current.

Such fresh applications will be submitted for acceptance by a meeting of the Committee of Management of AIPA to be held for this purpose at 10.00 am on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 (next Tuesday) at the AIPA office.

Those who have already paid a joining fee to AIPA need not pay again. Otherwise a joining fee of $25 is payable.

Those accepted for membership should be entitled to be included in the roll of voters for elections in AIPA to be held later this year and subject to maintaining financiality will be eligible to nominate or be nominated in those elections.

The roll of voters is due to close on or about 10 July 2007 and AIPA seeks the widest possible membership from Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots before that date, despite the shortness of time.

An application form is available http://www.aipa.org.au/AboutAIPA/tabid/53/Default.aspx. Please sign and return it immediately to the AIPA office.

Although a stay of proceedings has been foreshadowed by the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission to take effect 7 days after the decision of SDP Kaufman granting AIPA coverage (therefore from or after 20 June next) the President has recognised the right of AIPA to apply for the foreshadowed stay not to apply and this application will be made.

However, airline pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate must have lodged applications for acceptance by the Committee of Management before its next meeting on Tuesday, 19 June next for their membership and inclusion in the roll of voters to be effective.

Given that this notice can only be emailed to a limited number of Qantas Group pilots, it would be appreciated if you would do what you can to make sure that all pilots in all Qantas Group subsidiaries receive a copy of this email.

On behalf of AIPA I warmly welcome Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots to AIPA membership.

Yours sincerely,

Capt Ian Woods
AIPA President
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Old 14th Jun 2007, 10:49
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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"All Aboard the AIPA Membership Merry-go-round"

Captain Ian Woods' post today spruiking for pilots from Jetstar and the Qantas Regional’s to sign up with AIPA, is yet another turn of the AIPA Membership Merry-go-round and pilots should not be fooled particularly those who trusted their promises the first time round.

Jetstar and regional pilots will remember the earnest assurances two years ago that AIPA had clear eligibility to enrol them under their current rules. The words I recall are that we have a legal opinion to support our claims.

Those pilots, who took them at their word, paid over their money for nothing. SDP Kaufman found in his recent decision that “It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA.” (para 49 of the decision)
This means AIPA were found not to have eligibility to enrol the pilots. Not a murmur about that from AIPA - wonder why? Not even an apology and/or an offer to return your money.

Now AIPA is confronted with an appeal against SDP Kaufman's decision. A stay (freeze) of the decision has been granted by the President of the Commission, and it is to come into effect next Wednesday. The President granted the stay because he was satisfied that "there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted to appeal and that the appeal would succeed".

If the appeal succeeds, the recent decision will be set aside and the extended eligibility rule granted by it will be annulled. Those who enrolled under it and paid their money will have nothing to show for it.

So what is AIPA's rush, you may ask. Why not wait until the Commission has finally concluded its proceedings? The obvious answer is that AIPA are unconcerned about the disruption and uncertainty that they will cause. To repeat a quote recently used by Captain Woods, "the end justifies the means".

The extra membership fees will probably help them meet the costs of the wave of litigation that AIPA has instigated over the last few months.

And Qantas mainline pilots might well ask themselves about the good sense of having all these new members on the roll and voting in the upcoming elections, when they could well be struck off soon after if the appeal succeeds. What effect will that have on the election outcome if there were voters who should never have participated?

Obviously the elections could not stand - Captain Woods and his lawyers must know that. But again, the welfare of pilots seems to take second place to the political strategies.

If AIPA want to play their strategic little mind games half way through the match, don't get sucked in. Wait until the umpire has made the final decision.

Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
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Old 14th Jun 2007, 14:01
  #68 (permalink)  
Keg

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Lightbulb

And Qantas mainline pilots might well ask themselves about the good sense of having all these new members on the roll and voting in the upcoming elections, when they could well be struck off soon after if the appeal succeeds. What effect will that have on the election outcome if there were voters who should never have participated?
Geez, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work this one through. When do you need to be enrolled by? July. When is the actual vote for COM? October.

If the world turns your way Lawrie there will be ample time to ensure that the register is correct.

I know that I'd vote for a Dash 8 or A320 guy to be part of COM. The more united we are the better we are.
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Old 15th Jun 2007, 12:38
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Reproduced from Qrewroom without comment:
AIPA’s warmest welcome to Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots to AIPA membership.
It would be fair to say that it is apparent that AFAP’s Laurie Cox, who is not a pilot, hopes that Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots will not apply to join AIPA, as invited by AIPA, so as to be on the roll of voters for this year’s AIPA elections.

In actuality many Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots have already done so and indeed AIPA warmly welcomes them and invites all Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots to do so.

Those who have in the past signed applications for membership, have been invited to sign fresh applications, to place their membership beyond legal challenge.

My interpretation of the past Qantas/AFAP line, has been that, AIPA does not “really” want all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group as members.

Of course, it is now rightly recognised, that AIPA does. Notably, AIPA acted immediately SDP Kaufman’s Order of 13 June was made in AIPA’s favour (rejecting the Qantas/AFAP case) to open our membership to all Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots.

AIPA wishes all our new members to be on the AIPA electoral roll (which closes on or about 10 July) and also wants new member’s views on the new structure being debated by AIPA to afford active representation to Jetstar and Qantas Regional pilots, which is very important indeed.

If AIPA had not acted immediately to open membership to all those who are now eligible to join AIPA, AFAP no doubt would have said our omission shows AIPA was not serious in covering all airline pilots in the Qantas Group, which of course, would be profoundly untrue.

During the recent hearing before SDP Kaufman, I am not aware of the AFAP making any submission on any issue which conflicted with the case put by Qantas/Jetstar management and curiously, but not surprisingly, AFAP appeared to have acted as the second representative of Qantas/Jetstar management on most issues.

It is a matter of empirical fact that AIPA is a genuine industrial organisation of employees, which stands up for the interests of its members and SDP Kaufman has acknowledged that to be true. AIPA also encourages active participation by all members in its management.

All that said, I would simply like to reiterate Captain Woods and AIPA’s warmest welcome to Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots to AIPA membership.

Yours sincerely,

Captain John D. Dowe

AIPA Secretary
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Old 21st Jun 2007, 07:47
  #70 (permalink)  
Keg

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Exclamation

The wheel keeps turning.....

On 20 June 2007, Justice Giudice of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission ordered that:

“The operation of the order made by Senior Deputy President Kaufman on 13 June 2007 be stayed pending the determination of the appeal or further order.”

Regretfully, this means that AIPA cannot continue enrolling Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate members until the Qantas/AFAP appeal is decided.

Nonetheless, I am pleased to advise that in the 7 days AIPA was able to accept members from Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate, 22 pilots took up the opportunity to become financial members of AIPA.

Your Association’s legal advisers are confident that SDP Kaufman’s decision will be upheld and that ultimately AIPA will be able to offer representation to all Qantas Group pilots.

Notwithstanding, AIPA and AFAP are expected to engage in discussions leading to amalgamated coverage.

Rest assured, your Association is cognisant of the need to unify Australia’s airline pilots and will continue to progress the issue as quickly as possible.
A lot of water still to pass under the bridge on this one!
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Old 22nd Jun 2007, 08:15
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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shame-shame-shame

WELL Mr C from AFAP, you state what in your post ...." took them at their word,paid over good money for nothing".
Well I know little of AIPA/QF or group and have long left the AFAP but as an ex CRJ KD pilot.. those current AFAP members may wish to remember AFAP did not protect my seniority, did not get my turbo prop position back from junior pilots. In fact...did squat/zip..for me when I needed them most.
Bitter / twisted = not so much ..just a little much to read Mr C's post and not respond.
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Old 24th Jun 2007, 08:26
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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This is a long a thread and sometimes off the subject. BUT.

There have been two or three statements made regarding the eligibility of other than Qantas (mainline) pilots able to join AIPA! Which have gone unanswered.

Quote; L Cox,
“It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA.” (para 49 of the decision)

Also somewhere else in this thread I am sure it was quoted.

The direct quote from the AIRC web page is,

[49] It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA. I also accept the submissions of Mr McDonald at paragraphs 47 to 56 of his written submissions on this issue.

Paragraph 47 refers to, how AIPA has failed the no better organisation test. And,
Paragraph 56 refers to, the act does not discourage overlapping coverage and the resultant competition for membership.


A former AIPA President on another bulletin board has also stated,
Quote:
I do know that the AIPA rules specifically prohibited AIPA from signing up any members other than pilots engaged in international operations (as a direct result of court action in the early 1980's


The AIPA Reform Group (ARG) was formed and was elected to the AIPA committee. They came to power on a ticket of reform, among the members on the so-called ticket was a pilot who oh, I Shell referred to as” Buddha” to keep him anonymous if possible.

Under Senior Deputy President (SDP) Kaufman’s decision as per the quotes above, “Buddha” is not eligible to be a member of AIPA and therefore not eligible to be on the committee of management (C.O.M.)
Also there was a group (may be 80 odd) of $50 members (not Qantas mainline) who also voted in this election, who were in eligible to vote.
Why hasn't anyone including the registrar challenged the election? Or the members of the old Com that were defeated under the ARG's ticket, due to be in eligible (members) voting in that election?

What about all the decisions made by the ARG since the election with “Buddha” on the COM.
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Old 24th Jun 2007, 09:05
  #73 (permalink)  
Keg

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Shaft, I think that Wayne's quote about AIPA rules should have included the statement "...at the time...".

I'm pretty sure that AIPA's rules were amended to extend to beyond those flying international services about a decade or so ago.
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Old 24th Jun 2007, 11:18
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Keg, I would prefer not to reveal my source of information.

I'm not sure AIPA did extend their rules decades ago, I cannot find any evidence of that. (A search of the airc hasn't been forthcoming).
If they did why the need to vary there rules now?

In any case the judge has ruled that other than mainline were in eligible.

Do you have a comment on the eligibility of the Com.?
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Old 24th Jun 2007, 11:34
  #75 (permalink)  
Keg

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Question

Shaft, nope. To be honest I'm at a loss as to whom you're referring to with the term 'Buddha'.

All I say is that I recall something to do with amending the AIPA rules years ago. It's about the same time that it went from being 'Australian International Pilots' Association' to the 'Australian and International Pilots' Association'

(I'll await for the Mr Apostrophe crowd to tell me whether I got that one right or not! )
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Old 27th Jun 2007, 08:03
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Well Shaft if nothing else you silenced the peanut gallery for the time being or perhaps they are having trouble getting a reverse charge call through to HKG in order to be told how to slither out and blame the AFAP for it all.DD.
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Old 27th Jun 2007, 11:29
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Actually Don i just think no one can be bothered replying to Shaft. There's really no point, given he doesn't seem to have any comprehension skills. He can't understand who wrote what, nor what it means.

I have neither the time nor inclination to try and get someone to read something with an open mind, when their mind is closed to anything other than what they're told to believe.

As for you Don, you keep on pontificating on this site, on others, and in the workplace. It's funny to watch, after all most of us can see the compromised position you're in; thinking you're the Manager of Flt Op's best friend, and good buddies with Lawrie, and then believing you know best for the pilots.

Anyway, you have a nice day, and try not to let the hate eat at you too much
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 06:46
  #78 (permalink)  
Keg

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Thumbs up Closer to being united?

Today, in a unanimous decision, the Full Bench of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission awarded the Australian and International Pilots Association constitutional coverage of all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group. The Full Bench was constituted by SDP Acton, DP Ives and Commissioner Blair and consented to the alteration of the eligibility rules of AIPA by inserting the following new paragraph:

“Without in any way limiting the generality of any other provision of this rule or being limited thereby, all persons who are normally employed as pilots on airline services within or extending beyond the Commonwealth of Australia operated in whole or part and under any name by any of:

(i) Qantas Airways Limited ABN 16 009 661 901;
(ii) Qantas Limited ABN 73 003 613 465;
(iii) Australian Airlines Limited ABN 85 099 625 304;
(iv) Jetstar Airways Pty Limited ABN 33 069 720 243;
(v) Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Limited ABN 77 001 599 024; or
(vi) Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Limited ABN 82 009 734 703

shall be eligible for membership in the Organisation (AIPA).”

Affirming an earlier decision of SDP Kaufman which had been appealed by Qantas and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots, the Full Bench extended AIPA’s coverage to Jetstar and the Qantas Regional airlines. The alteration will come into effect on 2 January 2008.
i hope this is something we can work from to improve the lot of all group pilots.
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Old 20th Dec 2007, 08:51
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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I hope that the Jetstar pilots now call on AIPA's industrial expertise for the EBA negotiations which are already under way. Management want a five year EBA and with the major pilot shortage only going to get worse then pilot wages and conditions will experience huge increases during the next five years.
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Old 31st Dec 2007, 02:20
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Any rumours on whats included in the new EBA or is too early to speculate ? Whats happening with new start and AWA's?
Have they been abolished with the change in Govt?

Happy New Year to all....

Ang
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