Jetstar New Hire Pilots (AWAs)
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Well it seems management want to continue with the splintering of the pilot groups hearing this. The JPC and the pilot group have been fed lies and accepted crap conditions to get the company where it is.
Well, you really cant stop an AWA being introduced for new hires, but what you can do is hurt them (almost ala Virgin style & have aircraft parked up against a fence for a day) and unfortunately a lot of crew fall sick on a particular day due to a bad case of the "sh*ts" and see how they like them apples.
This stuff is very real fella's. The wheel is starting to spin in OZ at the moment. Stop being walked over!
Well, you really cant stop an AWA being introduced for new hires, but what you can do is hurt them (almost ala Virgin style & have aircraft parked up against a fence for a day) and unfortunately a lot of crew fall sick on a particular day due to a bad case of the "sh*ts" and see how they like them apples.
This stuff is very real fella's. The wheel is starting to spin in OZ at the moment. Stop being walked over!
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Dear oh Dear Sandy. You seem a little worked up. Actually I was referring to the selling out of the new hires by the company and the JPC. AWAs are not acceptable under any circumstances. This has only just been announced to the pilot group. Don't be concerned the group will be fighting to stop this. Unlike many of your type who blithely sit back and allow all below you to be shafted. Ie Singapore based 1st officers. Obviously you stood on your digs for their rights didn't you!!
Despite your "findings", I think you will find that most Jetstar guys and gals are exactly like you and all others in the industry. Working hard and fighting for a better workplace. As the "guardians of the industry" perhaps you need to be a little bit more concerned about your own back yard before getting hyped about others concerns.
Dm
Despite your "findings", I think you will find that most Jetstar guys and gals are exactly like you and all others in the industry. Working hard and fighting for a better workplace. As the "guardians of the industry" perhaps you need to be a little bit more concerned about your own back yard before getting hyped about others concerns.
Dm
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Douglas,
I do believe an 'olive branch' was offered to the JPC by AIPA during the negotions for the conditions for J*international but even though this offer came FOC it was denied. By 'olive branch' I mean the realisation by our new CoM that we all sink or swim together.
I now sit back and can only think that the desire to stop the AWAs being introduced is showing your industrial muscle a wee bit too late. The effective time to draw a line in the sand for J* conditions, I believe, has been lost and given the conditions that were negotiated for J* international and how easily they were accepted by the pilot body means that management will continue to test the waters with J* to see just how low the conditions can be pushed.
My previous post was posted in a general mood of anger and frustration at watching my career evaporate because others were prepared to undercut my conditons to do the same type of job, not for another company, but for a rebranded cheap version of Qantas that had had the route structure handed to them from us. However, I genuinely believe that until we can come together as a the 'Group' that management advertises, neither group will prosper. I do however find is rather ironic that the J* body is now in fear of being undercut.
Twin.
PS - If you want to, feel free to PM me for an insight into our part of the Group as I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more of the J* side. It's got to start somewhere I suppose.
I do believe an 'olive branch' was offered to the JPC by AIPA during the negotions for the conditions for J*international but even though this offer came FOC it was denied. By 'olive branch' I mean the realisation by our new CoM that we all sink or swim together.
I now sit back and can only think that the desire to stop the AWAs being introduced is showing your industrial muscle a wee bit too late. The effective time to draw a line in the sand for J* conditions, I believe, has been lost and given the conditions that were negotiated for J* international and how easily they were accepted by the pilot body means that management will continue to test the waters with J* to see just how low the conditions can be pushed.
My previous post was posted in a general mood of anger and frustration at watching my career evaporate because others were prepared to undercut my conditons to do the same type of job, not for another company, but for a rebranded cheap version of Qantas that had had the route structure handed to them from us. However, I genuinely believe that until we can come together as a the 'Group' that management advertises, neither group will prosper. I do however find is rather ironic that the J* body is now in fear of being undercut.
Twin.
PS - If you want to, feel free to PM me for an insight into our part of the Group as I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more of the J* side. It's got to start somewhere I suppose.
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Don't be concerned the group will be fighting to stop this.
Working hard and fighting for a better workplace
DM, you are still spouting the exact same crap that you came out with years ago. And yup, you were very clearly proven to be at the leading edge of a downwards spiral which has disgusted all others (except management) in the Australian Aviation Industry.
Forgive me if I don't agree with Twin. Whilst his intentions are probably good, he doesn't realise that you will white ant him in a heart beat, taking his job, lifestyle and future.
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Sandy,
My (perhaps ours?) future is already starting to be eaten away beacause of past events. My point is the rot HAS to stop at some point or we are all left with nothing.
I'm not happy about J* and the current impications it has on my, and many others careers, but unless something can be done about true convergence (upwards, not downwards) then the only places left for a career, not just a stepping stone, will be Asia and the Middle East. It seems a bit of a shame to me for such a 'lucky country'.
I actually think that the J* pilot body will come to realise that they have traded long term satisfaction for instant gratification but I also know that if I had still been in GA and J* had offered me a position I'd have accepted it in a flash. There just seems to be such a vicious circle. You can't blame guys for trying to earn more money and get out of that fun but nevertheless ****hole (most of the time, despite the fun memories) called GA, but it's a case of out of the pan and into the fire.
The bitching, moaning, fighting and continual race to the bottom in search of fast commands, upgrades, window seats, turbine time etc etc etc has to stop and a genuine attempt (hopefully succesful) to let go of the past and work towards a profitable future must start.
Will it happen? In my lifetime I doubt it, which is a bit of a shame considering I'd like to think I have over 30 years of flying left in me but you never know.
Anyway, time for bed. Tomorrow is, after all another day.
Twin.
My (perhaps ours?) future is already starting to be eaten away beacause of past events. My point is the rot HAS to stop at some point or we are all left with nothing.
I'm not happy about J* and the current impications it has on my, and many others careers, but unless something can be done about true convergence (upwards, not downwards) then the only places left for a career, not just a stepping stone, will be Asia and the Middle East. It seems a bit of a shame to me for such a 'lucky country'.
I actually think that the J* pilot body will come to realise that they have traded long term satisfaction for instant gratification but I also know that if I had still been in GA and J* had offered me a position I'd have accepted it in a flash. There just seems to be such a vicious circle. You can't blame guys for trying to earn more money and get out of that fun but nevertheless ****hole (most of the time, despite the fun memories) called GA, but it's a case of out of the pan and into the fire.
The bitching, moaning, fighting and continual race to the bottom in search of fast commands, upgrades, window seats, turbine time etc etc etc has to stop and a genuine attempt (hopefully succesful) to let go of the past and work towards a profitable future must start.
Will it happen? In my lifetime I doubt it, which is a bit of a shame considering I'd like to think I have over 30 years of flying left in me but you never know.
Anyway, time for bed. Tomorrow is, after all another day.
Twin.
Jetstar deals spark union fears
By Scott Rochfort
May 14, 2007
Qantas has launched one of its biggest ever assaults on the union movement, with its low-cost Jetstar subsidiary confirming plans to put all its new pilots and maintenance staff on individual workplace agreements.
Barely one week since the collapse of the $11.1 billion Macquarie Bank-led bid for Qantas, Jetstar confirmed it was planning to hire 200 pilots and 50 aircraft maintenance engineers on Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) in the coming months.
"Jetstar as an organisation needs the flexibility to grow, and we believe that a flexible workplace agreement allows us to do that," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway told BusinessDay. This will represent the biggest intake of staff on AWAs that Jetstar has made.
At present it has 90 long-haul flight attendants on individual agreements after snubbing the international arm of the Flight Attendants Association last year.
Mr Westaway argued that Jetstar staff on the new five-year contracts would be paid the same as existing Jetstar pilots and engineers on enterprise bargaining agreements (EBAs).
Staff on AWAs will be subject to annual pay reviews, rather than the automatic pay increases staff on EBAs can get.
"If the airline performs extremely well, or better than forecast, there's obviously upside for new recruits on these agreements," Mr Westaway said. "It's about embedding a performance culture in the airline," he said. Jetstar has 400 pilots and 150 engineering staff on EBAs.
Sparking union fears that Jetstar's adoption of AWAs could become more widespread, Mr Westaway added that the agreements would be needed to assist the airline's taking on Boeing 787s from August 2008. "We have to move now in respect to the 787 program. We do need to push the button and move now."
Unions fear Jetstar's growing use of non-union staff could eventually spread to Qantas.
"It's a union-busting activity," said the general manager of the Australian International Pilots Association, Peter Somerville.
"It has nothing to do with flexibility; it's about peeling employees from their collective representatives."
Mr Somerville questioned the timing of the Jetstar announcement, given the Industrial Relations Commission is also due to hand down a ruling on whether the union had the right to represent Jetstar crews. Jetstar pilots are represented by a company-endorsed Jetstar Pilots Council.
Mr Somerville added that the move to put pilots on AWAs raised safety concerns. "They are willing to pit pilot against pilot. In a safety culture, that is a major, major mistake and a flaw in their plan. The bean counters just don't get that."
Mr Somerville suggested the Jetstar announcement was a smokescreen aimed at diverting attention from Qantas senior management now trying to wash their hands clean of the Airline Partners Australia takeover they previously endorsed.
But the move follows Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon's warning in March that the airline needed to change, "whatever its ownership structure".
There are suspicions Qantas may even attempt to "wet lease" 787s and crews from the lower-paying Jetstar subsidiary.
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association federal president Paul Cousins said the hiring of Jetstar engineers on AWAs was an attempt by the airline to sideline unions' efforts to bargain on behalf of their members. He said he was concerned Qantas would outsource operations to its low-cost offshoot.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/busine...994995758.html
By Scott Rochfort
May 14, 2007
Qantas has launched one of its biggest ever assaults on the union movement, with its low-cost Jetstar subsidiary confirming plans to put all its new pilots and maintenance staff on individual workplace agreements.
Barely one week since the collapse of the $11.1 billion Macquarie Bank-led bid for Qantas, Jetstar confirmed it was planning to hire 200 pilots and 50 aircraft maintenance engineers on Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) in the coming months.
"Jetstar as an organisation needs the flexibility to grow, and we believe that a flexible workplace agreement allows us to do that," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway told BusinessDay. This will represent the biggest intake of staff on AWAs that Jetstar has made.
At present it has 90 long-haul flight attendants on individual agreements after snubbing the international arm of the Flight Attendants Association last year.
Mr Westaway argued that Jetstar staff on the new five-year contracts would be paid the same as existing Jetstar pilots and engineers on enterprise bargaining agreements (EBAs).
Staff on AWAs will be subject to annual pay reviews, rather than the automatic pay increases staff on EBAs can get.
"If the airline performs extremely well, or better than forecast, there's obviously upside for new recruits on these agreements," Mr Westaway said. "It's about embedding a performance culture in the airline," he said. Jetstar has 400 pilots and 150 engineering staff on EBAs.
Sparking union fears that Jetstar's adoption of AWAs could become more widespread, Mr Westaway added that the agreements would be needed to assist the airline's taking on Boeing 787s from August 2008. "We have to move now in respect to the 787 program. We do need to push the button and move now."
Unions fear Jetstar's growing use of non-union staff could eventually spread to Qantas.
"It's a union-busting activity," said the general manager of the Australian International Pilots Association, Peter Somerville.
"It has nothing to do with flexibility; it's about peeling employees from their collective representatives."
Mr Somerville questioned the timing of the Jetstar announcement, given the Industrial Relations Commission is also due to hand down a ruling on whether the union had the right to represent Jetstar crews. Jetstar pilots are represented by a company-endorsed Jetstar Pilots Council.
Mr Somerville added that the move to put pilots on AWAs raised safety concerns. "They are willing to pit pilot against pilot. In a safety culture, that is a major, major mistake and a flaw in their plan. The bean counters just don't get that."
Mr Somerville suggested the Jetstar announcement was a smokescreen aimed at diverting attention from Qantas senior management now trying to wash their hands clean of the Airline Partners Australia takeover they previously endorsed.
But the move follows Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon's warning in March that the airline needed to change, "whatever its ownership structure".
There are suspicions Qantas may even attempt to "wet lease" 787s and crews from the lower-paying Jetstar subsidiary.
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association federal president Paul Cousins said the hiring of Jetstar engineers on AWAs was an attempt by the airline to sideline unions' efforts to bargain on behalf of their members. He said he was concerned Qantas would outsource operations to its low-cost offshoot.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/busine...994995758.html
Last edited by Blue Ruin; 13th May 2007 at 16:23. Reason: Formatting
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Twin NDB,
"Olive Branch" eh?? When AIPA are actively fighting to stop J* expansion and the likes in the courts, you expect the pilot body to get on board and forget this and have happy days? Surely you jest? Are you winding us up??
As long as the guardians of the industry keep believing their own bullsh*t and the AIPA spin, you'll keep creeping further from reality.
AIPA, AFAP, Virgin pilots & Jetstar have all had ample opportunity to get together and form one body. We all talk about how great this will be, but neither party is prepared to be the bigger person and merge with the other, because they think their own group is superior. Time is slipping by as the wheel is spinning in our favour as an industry, and before we know it, we'll have all screwed this up once again in monumental proportions for the next 20 years. I hope the honcho's in all the groups can sort their issues out and come together sooner, rather than later.
"Olive Branch" eh?? When AIPA are actively fighting to stop J* expansion and the likes in the courts, you expect the pilot body to get on board and forget this and have happy days? Surely you jest? Are you winding us up??
As long as the guardians of the industry keep believing their own bullsh*t and the AIPA spin, you'll keep creeping further from reality.
AIPA, AFAP, Virgin pilots & Jetstar have all had ample opportunity to get together and form one body. We all talk about how great this will be, but neither party is prepared to be the bigger person and merge with the other, because they think their own group is superior. Time is slipping by as the wheel is spinning in our favour as an industry, and before we know it, we'll have all screwed this up once again in monumental proportions for the next 20 years. I hope the honcho's in all the groups can sort their issues out and come together sooner, rather than later.
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The best performance indicator for aircrew is NO ACCIDENTS, which has been the case to date. How would management like us to improve productivity?
Lets see. I could fly below the minima and land in fog at Canberra. GA pilots have been getting away with it for years. Those pesty diversions do so interrupt the schedule. I could not write up unservicabilities in the maintenance release. Ignore that hydraulic valve that won't shut off; after all what are the chances of an engine fire that would require it shut, so it won't feed fuel to the fire? I could fly with a head cold- what is the probability of a cabin depressurisation that would TOTALLY DEBILITATE me on that one sector?
Bloggs, we note in your annual pay review that you diverted 3 times this past year, and grounded an aircraft twice by writing "things" in the maintenance release. Sorry no pay rise for you.
We are paid to manage the various risks that confront us each day at
work. We should not be pressured to TAKE RISKS that will lead to an incident or accident. The POOR standard of initial and recurrent training that is occurring in ALL jet operators in this country is appaulling and will result in one thing..........
Lets see. I could fly below the minima and land in fog at Canberra. GA pilots have been getting away with it for years. Those pesty diversions do so interrupt the schedule. I could not write up unservicabilities in the maintenance release. Ignore that hydraulic valve that won't shut off; after all what are the chances of an engine fire that would require it shut, so it won't feed fuel to the fire? I could fly with a head cold- what is the probability of a cabin depressurisation that would TOTALLY DEBILITATE me on that one sector?
Bloggs, we note in your annual pay review that you diverted 3 times this past year, and grounded an aircraft twice by writing "things" in the maintenance release. Sorry no pay rise for you.
We are paid to manage the various risks that confront us each day at
work. We should not be pressured to TAKE RISKS that will lead to an incident or accident. The POOR standard of initial and recurrent training that is occurring in ALL jet operators in this country is appaulling and will result in one thing..........
JPC WTF?!
part of me just says "ah stuff it! let them go!". If the Jetstar boys are willing to forego annual payrises and promotion for new joiners (yes thats right, people who havent evn joined your ranks yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!), so they can 'fly a widebody jet' (sounds a lot like that emirates video doesnt it), then I say let them go and see what happens.
I say its time to forget about JPC and get Virgin and AIPA to band togheter.
part of me just says "ah stuff it! let them go!". If the Jetstar boys are willing to forego annual payrises and promotion for new joiners (yes thats right, people who havent evn joined your ranks yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!), so they can 'fly a widebody jet' (sounds a lot like that emirates video doesnt it), then I say let them go and see what happens.
I say its time to forget about JPC and get Virgin and AIPA to band togheter.
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There are suspicions Qantas may even attempt to "wet lease" 787s and crews from the lower-paying Jetstar subsidiary
.
Jetstar pilots are represented by a company-endorsed Jetstar Pilots Council.
"We have to move now in respect to the 787 program. We do need to push the button and move now."
Too many people mired in the past.
Yes: AIPA was arrogant and screwed Jetstar guys. Yes those Jetstar undercut everybody. Yes Virgin Blue guys initially accepted low salaries to get it going. Yes scabs started the whole rot in 1989. The main lesson from all of this is that pilots screw themselves more than managers seem to but...
It's time to get over it all. Its 2007 and that stuff is history. Learn from it but go forward having gained wisdom from those events.
Regroup, refocus and regain what's been lost. Now is the time to advance.
It will need lateral and creative thinking and an entirely new mindset as to how to tackle managerial hypocrisy and sharehoder need for immediate returns but it can be done.
The first step is to stop sniping at each other. The next is to reunite AIPA, AFAP and JPC cohesively and the final is to institute an intelligent battle plan.
Judging by most of the posts here, stage one will probably be the most difficult.
Yes: AIPA was arrogant and screwed Jetstar guys. Yes those Jetstar undercut everybody. Yes Virgin Blue guys initially accepted low salaries to get it going. Yes scabs started the whole rot in 1989. The main lesson from all of this is that pilots screw themselves more than managers seem to but...
It's time to get over it all. Its 2007 and that stuff is history. Learn from it but go forward having gained wisdom from those events.
Regroup, refocus and regain what's been lost. Now is the time to advance.
It will need lateral and creative thinking and an entirely new mindset as to how to tackle managerial hypocrisy and sharehoder need for immediate returns but it can be done.
The first step is to stop sniping at each other. The next is to reunite AIPA, AFAP and JPC cohesively and the final is to institute an intelligent battle plan.
Judging by most of the posts here, stage one will probably be the most difficult.
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Excellent post Al. This would have to be the most accurate statement i've ever read on this forum.
Others like old Sandy, don't be fooled by your own ignorance. There is one angry pilot body here now. This has really showed all involved that belonging to a union with industrial muscle is absolutely essential when dealing with the "Company".
Id say that there a few heads on the block as we speak.
DM
Others like old Sandy, don't be fooled by your own ignorance. There is one angry pilot body here now. This has really showed all involved that belonging to a union with industrial muscle is absolutely essential when dealing with the "Company".
Id say that there a few heads on the block as we speak.
DM
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I think it is obvious that AIPA, JPC and AFAP can't really merge, too much history and mistrust.
For the record, most of the mistrust that the JPC has regarding AIPA was fueled by the president jilting them (to the horror of most thinking members), this fellow is now senior QF management, obviously it was a setup. He is now universally hated by the QF pilots as well. Isn't it a bit unfair to blame the present AIPA for what a management stooge did 6 years ago?
Also, some QF pilots will never forgive the JPC for what they did, but I think it is a minority, if the JPC stand up for themselves, like the Virgin pilots are doing, the vast majority of mainline pilots will let bygones be bygones in the hope of a productive future.
So having said all that why can't AIPA, JPC and AFAP work together, as seperate units under the umbrella of one parent organisation? Cohesive but still independant.
This is the only way that any of us have any real hope, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.....
For the record, most of the mistrust that the JPC has regarding AIPA was fueled by the president jilting them (to the horror of most thinking members), this fellow is now senior QF management, obviously it was a setup. He is now universally hated by the QF pilots as well. Isn't it a bit unfair to blame the present AIPA for what a management stooge did 6 years ago?
Also, some QF pilots will never forgive the JPC for what they did, but I think it is a minority, if the JPC stand up for themselves, like the Virgin pilots are doing, the vast majority of mainline pilots will let bygones be bygones in the hope of a productive future.
So having said all that why can't AIPA, JPC and AFAP work together, as seperate units under the umbrella of one parent organisation? Cohesive but still independant.
This is the only way that any of us have any real hope, pilot shortage or no pilot shortage.....
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Good post Speeeedy.
I think you'll find most Jetstar guys don't hold a grudge for AIPA's decision 6 years ago. Its water under the bridge. HOWEVER, the active campaign to stop the expansion of Jetstar in the last 6-12 months (and International side of things, the 330's etc etc) by AIPA is seen as a shot across the bow of Jetstar pilot group. Most can appreciate that if you were a QF pilot, you'd be wanting your union to fight for you...sure, but then to expect to get the group on-side that your challenging, is almost a conflict of interest.
Anyway, you'll be happy to know that theres a lot that aren't happy with the JPC, and their lack of communication to the troops. I think it would be fair to say theres a 'good' chance there will be a changing of the guard next time around.
I think you'll find most Jetstar guys don't hold a grudge for AIPA's decision 6 years ago. Its water under the bridge. HOWEVER, the active campaign to stop the expansion of Jetstar in the last 6-12 months (and International side of things, the 330's etc etc) by AIPA is seen as a shot across the bow of Jetstar pilot group. Most can appreciate that if you were a QF pilot, you'd be wanting your union to fight for you...sure, but then to expect to get the group on-side that your challenging, is almost a conflict of interest.
Anyway, you'll be happy to know that theres a lot that aren't happy with the JPC, and their lack of communication to the troops. I think it would be fair to say theres a 'good' chance there will be a changing of the guard next time around.
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I was at that meeting with the above mentioned stooge. You could have literally heard a pin drop when he stated that AIPA and therefore Qantas pilots couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't support Impulse pilots that now found them selves working for the QF group. It was one of the most embarrassing displays of head in the sand and hand up your backside management type speeches I have ever experienced.
Unfortunately, the actions of many in both camps over the past 3 years have only added to the problem. These type of muppets are usually hand picked for their jobs.
Personally Id love to see one major union that furthers the industry and pilot conditions as a whole. Blokes like Sandy just don't get it. These ranting agro posts only highlight how effectively the "Company" divided and carefully separated many groups within Qantas. For instance how about the poor ba$tards at National Jet. Pay cuts to fly the 717 and no staff travel, just to name a few of their conditions. I havent seen to many angry posts on Qroom offering support and showing a unified front.
Ive seen this for nearly 40 years now. From the most junior charter guy at a country aerodrome to well established jet pilots within major airlines, greed and modern day style of self serving ignorance is and will always be exploited by employers chasing every saving.
While ever we argue and sling mud we all loose. An Australian pilot union that covers everyone from the top to the bottom would make this type of rubbish a lot more difficult for companies to implement. Until then all we can do is try our best against in an ever increasingly difficult environment
DM.
Unfortunately, the actions of many in both camps over the past 3 years have only added to the problem. These type of muppets are usually hand picked for their jobs.
Personally Id love to see one major union that furthers the industry and pilot conditions as a whole. Blokes like Sandy just don't get it. These ranting agro posts only highlight how effectively the "Company" divided and carefully separated many groups within Qantas. For instance how about the poor ba$tards at National Jet. Pay cuts to fly the 717 and no staff travel, just to name a few of their conditions. I havent seen to many angry posts on Qroom offering support and showing a unified front.
Ive seen this for nearly 40 years now. From the most junior charter guy at a country aerodrome to well established jet pilots within major airlines, greed and modern day style of self serving ignorance is and will always be exploited by employers chasing every saving.
While ever we argue and sling mud we all loose. An Australian pilot union that covers everyone from the top to the bottom would make this type of rubbish a lot more difficult for companies to implement. Until then all we can do is try our best against in an ever increasingly difficult environment
DM.