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Gee Wizz Keg, it looks like you've really had your buttons pushed. Not my intention to wind your spring. I'm not anti-QF pilots at all, but I do follow the great Australian tradition of bagging out the bulldust when I see it.
For your responses, I can see that you and many at QF have been under a fair bit of stress lately. Fair enough, all forgiven. Perhaps there is also some in-fighting within AIPA and hence any criticism of your president is to be resoundly squashed. This is a difficult time that your union faces. It's none of my business, so I wont press the point.
As for "jealousies" or "chips on the shoulder" wrt to Qantas, I simply don't have any and why would I? Post Ansett, I've enjoyed career progress, pay, status and satisfaction WAY beyond what would have been on offer had I gone to QF in 2001. I am aware that many of my fellow workmates who did go to QF as 2nd officers have now realised that there are far better options and have moved on. Some of them have moved from SOs at QF to Command position at J*.
I recieved an email from a poster who says that the media release containing the quote in question was writen by PR people and the AIPA president signed it. I find it believable that this could be the case. In any event, it is a far more palatable explaination for all concerned than he came up with crap like that himself. It probably wasn't the best move to put his name to it though, was it?
Anyway, I do understand the frustrations that you guys feel as J* expands, Tigers lurk, the middle eastern carriers lie in wait and your very own managers threaten the career aspirations of mainline QF pilots; the disgusting manner in which the A330 guys have been treated is a case in point. The industry is changing and from what I've seen, AIPA is not doing a very good job at present of adapting to the the new order of things. I say this joylessly, simply observing. But I am a suvivour, and you must learn to adapt, as I have.
I wish you luck.
For your responses, I can see that you and many at QF have been under a fair bit of stress lately. Fair enough, all forgiven. Perhaps there is also some in-fighting within AIPA and hence any criticism of your president is to be resoundly squashed. This is a difficult time that your union faces. It's none of my business, so I wont press the point.
As for "jealousies" or "chips on the shoulder" wrt to Qantas, I simply don't have any and why would I? Post Ansett, I've enjoyed career progress, pay, status and satisfaction WAY beyond what would have been on offer had I gone to QF in 2001. I am aware that many of my fellow workmates who did go to QF as 2nd officers have now realised that there are far better options and have moved on. Some of them have moved from SOs at QF to Command position at J*.
I recieved an email from a poster who says that the media release containing the quote in question was writen by PR people and the AIPA president signed it. I find it believable that this could be the case. In any event, it is a far more palatable explaination for all concerned than he came up with crap like that himself. It probably wasn't the best move to put his name to it though, was it?
Anyway, I do understand the frustrations that you guys feel as J* expands, Tigers lurk, the middle eastern carriers lie in wait and your very own managers threaten the career aspirations of mainline QF pilots; the disgusting manner in which the A330 guys have been treated is a case in point. The industry is changing and from what I've seen, AIPA is not doing a very good job at present of adapting to the the new order of things. I say this joylessly, simply observing. But I am a suvivour, and you must learn to adapt, as I have.
I wish you luck.
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Ralph,
Congrats on a successful career turnaround.
Your point about challenges to QF pilots is well made.
Keg,
I'm sure that you are good at regurgitating the spin from "New AIPA". But might I suggest you examine a few facts :
1. Since arrival due process has not been followed; New AIPA can't even keep minutes.
2. Allowances and accomodation is a disaster.
3. Many thousands of dollars wasted on hopeless legal action
4. Jetstar slots occupied by QF pilots (but negotiated by "old AIPA")
5. No progress on LH EBA or A380 or B787 T & Cs
6. No progress on sharing of blank lines or other rostering improvements
7. No recommendation on SH EBA from the Committee.
Do you want me to continue?
Oh, and by the way Keg, I'm sure Mike is a nice fellow. That is not the point. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Keg, I don't have a few thousand posts like some... maybe you're the one who should stop digging?
Congrats on a successful career turnaround.
Your point about challenges to QF pilots is well made.
Keg,
As for the rest of you clowns, you're hysterical. I just love watching people on pprune stick both feet in their mouths by the use of the keyboards. Keep at it lads because you're making a much more interesting statement about yourself then you are about Mike. 
1. Since arrival due process has not been followed; New AIPA can't even keep minutes.
2. Allowances and accomodation is a disaster.
3. Many thousands of dollars wasted on hopeless legal action
4. Jetstar slots occupied by QF pilots (but negotiated by "old AIPA")
5. No progress on LH EBA or A380 or B787 T & Cs
6. No progress on sharing of blank lines or other rostering improvements
7. No recommendation on SH EBA from the Committee.
Do you want me to continue?
Oh, and by the way Keg, I'm sure Mike is a nice fellow. That is not the point. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
So keep digging lads, it looks like a nice hole so far!
Lucius what do you make of the fact that they didn't recommend the SH Deal? What is wrong with AIPA not endorsing?
Personally I think it is because they think it is a bad deal, and have such sent it to the pilots without endorsement in the hope that they will vote it down in the way that Virgin Pilots did when they were offered a bad deal. Thus empowering the negotiators
As for your other points, a couple are valid but the, 787 380 T&C, rostering would not have been handled any better by old AIPA, unless of course you think that Italians handled themselves well in WWII. Surrender at every turn. Just look at J* when it started. That was well handled by old AIPA, was it not? If you think that Jetstar slots came around because of anything other than a shortage, Like Jet connect slots then you are kidding yourself.
Personally I think it is because they think it is a bad deal, and have such sent it to the pilots without endorsement in the hope that they will vote it down in the way that Virgin Pilots did when they were offered a bad deal. Thus empowering the negotiators
As for your other points, a couple are valid but the, 787 380 T&C, rostering would not have been handled any better by old AIPA, unless of course you think that Italians handled themselves well in WWII. Surrender at every turn. Just look at J* when it started. That was well handled by old AIPA, was it not? If you think that Jetstar slots came around because of anything other than a shortage, Like Jet connect slots then you are kidding yourself.
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Snafu,
Well they can do what they like but my point is they are selected to evaluate all the facts and make recommendations. They have been elected to provide guidance and leadership and when they don't you get people confused and just milling around aimlessly like they are now. For heavens sake, if COM can't take up a position..any position how are the rest of us supposed to?
As to the deal, well, it might not be everything you want but if the total package is a fair deal then we should vote for it.
So old AIPA didn't handle the A330 intoduction well? Old AIPA didn't handle the sharing of Blank lines well? I guess if you say something often enough you start to believe it...
Yes, AIPA had one chance to get the confidence of Impulse/Jetstar in 2003. A difficult chance but the keeper was asleep and muffed it.
Looking ahead Snafu, we need to stop using terns like "surrender", "WWII" etc. This is not war..it is business.
Business is usually best conducted by negotiation after first doing one's homework. My point is that the current lot, on all evidence, are doing neither.
What is wrong with AIPA not endorsing?
As to the deal, well, it might not be everything you want but if the total package is a fair deal then we should vote for it.
the, 787 380 T&C, rostering would not have been handled any better by old AIPA,
Yes, AIPA had one chance to get the confidence of Impulse/Jetstar in 2003. A difficult chance but the keeper was asleep and muffed it.
Looking ahead Snafu, we need to stop using terns like "surrender", "WWII" etc. This is not war..it is business.
Business is usually best conducted by negotiation after first doing one's homework. My point is that the current lot, on all evidence, are doing neither.
The total package for shorthaul is to be frank not good enough. With back pay perhaps. But as it stands it is not. It has some good points, but in total not enough. Even if profits weren't at record levels and pilots weren't increasingly becoming harder to find (look at Jet connect offer, DJ cancelling flights, JQ commands) or if the company seemingly didn't have 4 billion ready to be taken out, without any sort of recompense for work done since the last rise in 2004 the deal would not be good enough. It's only taken almost two years since the expiry of the last to get a deal to even put to a vote. Whose fault is it that the company didn't start talking until six months after the deal had expired. Given that all the above points are true then it would seem that if we can't get a substantial deal now, what can we expect when times aren't so good. Already have proved when times are bad (SARS 9/11) that as a group we do things for the good of the company, so why can we not expect when times seemingly don't get any better than this to not reap some fair reward. I'm not talking about taking the company for a ride or asking it to bend over.
The non endorsement would seem to mean that the negotiators can get no further, so they want the pilots to decide. The fact that it is not endorsed implies that it is not endorsed. The silence says a lot.
The A330 was introduced well in T&C, but I doubt many of the guys are loving being on it at the moment. You think that old AIPA would have been able to achieve anything more on its current state than new, GD suddenly going to start loving mainline again. I doubt it. As to the 787 a mr H was quoted in one Flt ops newsletter to secure the 787 for mainline. We would could work more for less. Sounds like a great deal.
As to the keeper muffing the chance. It understandable to let in a goal when you are ahead in a dead rubber. It is a completely different thing to be asleep when you are in the championship decider. Most of the other things pale into insignificance when looked at compared to that monumental F UP.
The non endorsement would seem to mean that the negotiators can get no further, so they want the pilots to decide. The fact that it is not endorsed implies that it is not endorsed. The silence says a lot.
The A330 was introduced well in T&C, but I doubt many of the guys are loving being on it at the moment. You think that old AIPA would have been able to achieve anything more on its current state than new, GD suddenly going to start loving mainline again. I doubt it. As to the 787 a mr H was quoted in one Flt ops newsletter to secure the 787 for mainline. We would could work more for less. Sounds like a great deal.
As to the keeper muffing the chance. It understandable to let in a goal when you are ahead in a dead rubber. It is a completely different thing to be asleep when you are in the championship decider. Most of the other things pale into insignificance when looked at compared to that monumental F UP.
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Golly gosh Lucius you must have skulled a hogshead of vinegar to come out with all that bile.
You keep refering to a certain character who stuffed it with regards to the Impulse pilots.
I've spoken to one of those Impulse chaps who first approached AIPA, those many moons ago, about coverage, and the individual you keep trying to blame was not the one who first ignited the ire of this group. That dubious honour goes to the AIPA president at the time ,our own present chief pilot ,.
You keep refering to a certain character who stuffed it with regards to the Impulse pilots.
I've spoken to one of those Impulse chaps who first approached AIPA, those many moons ago, about coverage, and the individual you keep trying to blame was not the one who first ignited the ire of this group. That dubious honour goes to the AIPA president at the time ,our own present chief pilot ,.
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Gosh, the fact that information dumbed for public consumption has angered so many really says alot.
These comments were designed for public processing (as in very simplistic); QF is the biggest company in the Australian aviation industry, it can therefore have the greatest influence (keep it simple, stupid). Having the greatest influence - and therefore responsibility - the group becomes the 'guardian', if you will. Put it even simpler, if QF collapsed, it would be more catastrophic than any other Australian operator collapsing.
So how about getting your hands off it.
These comments were designed for public processing (as in very simplistic); QF is the biggest company in the Australian aviation industry, it can therefore have the greatest influence (keep it simple, stupid). Having the greatest influence - and therefore responsibility - the group becomes the 'guardian', if you will. Put it even simpler, if QF collapsed, it would be more catastrophic than any other Australian operator collapsing.
So how about getting your hands off it.
Last edited by podbreak; 10th May 2007 at 10:37. Reason: needed e x p l a i n i n g
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F*ck Me!
Divide and conquer has been the go in aviation and we as a group of professionals have done absolutely f*ck all to combat the problem.
Until we ALL learn that our futures are to a certain extent interrelated none of us are going to excell.
No wonder the management groups of the airlines think they can keep f*cking us over. Get over a quote and realise there are greater problems that face us all.
Twin.
Divide and conquer has been the go in aviation and we as a group of professionals have done absolutely f*ck all to combat the problem.
Until we ALL learn that our futures are to a certain extent interrelated none of us are going to excell.
No wonder the management groups of the airlines think they can keep f*cking us over. Get over a quote and realise there are greater problems that face us all.
Twin.
Evertonian
QF is the biggest company in the Australian industry, it can therefore have the greatest influence (keep it simple, stupid). Having the greatest influence - and therefore responsibility - the group becomes the 'guardian', if you will
But, I digress, one mans "guardian", is another mans "dictator"...
You take your hands off first...
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Imagine having all your giant egos let loose in one room! The room would implode and the world might actually be a better place!
Seriously, you all have to get your hands off it!
Seriously, you all have to get your hands off it!
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Guardians????
Qantas is an airline much like many other airlines, and Qantas pilots are competent pilots, like thousands of other airline pilots.They are not skygods. We expect nothing less from any airline.
Qantas has been financially sucessful. It has also been protected from competitors by the government.
The comment that was made was most inappropriate.
Qantas has been financially sucessful. It has also been protected from competitors by the government.
The comment that was made was most inappropriate.
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Qantas,....mantle of the safest airline in the world?
To deny the obvious and multiple blunders in airmanship and CRM of the "Bang Kok"......ACCIDENT!!!!!, to the point of almost not admitting it happened ,suggests some major safety issues. Red Flags at full mast!!
I would say they hold the cloak with which they mask their short comings.
Guardians of the industry?
Sat on their fat ars.. ( wallets) in 89 and did nothing.
Used political pressure to cement their position during the approach to Ansett's demise.
Screwed the pooch for decades, and now facing a wholesale shafting from their management, and what do they do? Jump up and down screaming "blue murder". Guardians of the "I'm all right ,Jack" mentality.
Engineering excellence?
Were there not parts falling off their 767s in flight?
Any findings or action regarding this problem. I believe that Ansett 767 were grounded due to paperwork problems not bits falling from aeroplanes.
Flight attendants...........well ,anyone who has ever had the honour of basking in their magnificence during a flight would have an opinion.I know I do.
May be having your "hand on it" is part of their Company Policy or Procedures.
Warren must have just be doing a little refresher study to keep up his standard . Just keeping his "hand in", so to speak.
This guy( Cpt ?) , nice guy or not, is still a QF wan...., well you know.
To deny the obvious and multiple blunders in airmanship and CRM of the "Bang Kok"......ACCIDENT!!!!!, to the point of almost not admitting it happened ,suggests some major safety issues. Red Flags at full mast!!
I would say they hold the cloak with which they mask their short comings.
Guardians of the industry?
Sat on their fat ars.. ( wallets) in 89 and did nothing.
Used political pressure to cement their position during the approach to Ansett's demise.
Screwed the pooch for decades, and now facing a wholesale shafting from their management, and what do they do? Jump up and down screaming "blue murder". Guardians of the "I'm all right ,Jack" mentality.
Engineering excellence?
Were there not parts falling off their 767s in flight?
Any findings or action regarding this problem. I believe that Ansett 767 were grounded due to paperwork problems not bits falling from aeroplanes.
Flight attendants...........well ,anyone who has ever had the honour of basking in their magnificence during a flight would have an opinion.I know I do.
May be having your "hand on it" is part of their Company Policy or Procedures.
Warren must have just be doing a little refresher study to keep up his standard . Just keeping his "hand in", so to speak.
This guy( Cpt ?) , nice guy or not, is still a QF wan...., well you know.
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You lot still raving on about this? Fair dinkum girls, you're just sending yourself to early graves! Get over it!
As I look around here, it's no wonder D&G is rapidly becoming my "last-stop-shop" on the www.....................
As I look around here, it's no wonder D&G is rapidly becoming my "last-stop-shop" on the www.....................
Don't know Capt Glynn, don't care.
But I don't believe he would make a comment like that with the intent to have it sound like it did.
Here are 2 ways he could have said better what he really meant.
"Pilots are the guardians of the aviation industry, the last line of defence in the safety chain."
ie pilots in general over the whole industry, not QANTAS pilots guarding the whole industry.
or
"Qantas pilots are the guardian of Qantas's high standards, the last line of defence in this airline's safety chain."
ie Qantas pilots look after Qantas's standards, not everyone else's.
So, not so much a point of context as a poor choice of words. I truly believe this is what the guy meant.
Trevor the thinker
But I don't believe he would make a comment like that with the intent to have it sound like it did.
Here are 2 ways he could have said better what he really meant.
"Pilots are the guardians of the aviation industry, the last line of defence in the safety chain."
ie pilots in general over the whole industry, not QANTAS pilots guarding the whole industry.
or
"Qantas pilots are the guardian of Qantas's high standards, the last line of defence in this airline's safety chain."
ie Qantas pilots look after Qantas's standards, not everyone else's.
So, not so much a point of context as a poor choice of words. I truly believe this is what the guy meant.
Trevor the thinker
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There was a time many many years ago when being a Qantas pilot was a fairly exclusive position, I don't know about 'Guardian' but certainly they were a small specialist group. They also held a fairly contemptuous attitude to other pilot groups (i.e. split from AFAP)
Today, QF pilots account for around 2/3 of the airline pilots in this country, hardly an exclusive position. I belive this is what Keg et.al are trying to convey. Times have changed.
Unfortunately Capt Glynn either has not thought outside the QF box, or still holds the myopic views of 25 years ago and has made a freudian slip. Unfortunate yes, but not the end of the world.
The more we all bicker at comments like this on chat rooms the more management will divide and conquer.
Build a bridge....................
Today, QF pilots account for around 2/3 of the airline pilots in this country, hardly an exclusive position. I belive this is what Keg et.al are trying to convey. Times have changed.
Unfortunately Capt Glynn either has not thought outside the QF box, or still holds the myopic views of 25 years ago and has made a freudian slip. Unfortunate yes, but not the end of the world.
The more we all bicker at comments like this on chat rooms the more management will divide and conquer.
Build a bridge....................
