Skygods here to save us all
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Yes Keg, what ever you say.
You state that posters have made certain assumptions regarding context and then go on to do the same yourself. If this guy does read PPrune, let him come on and explain himself. If he has been quoted inaccurately, well and good, but in the past I've met a good many 'skygods' who wear a QF uniform who espouse this sort of drivel, (particulary those associated with GAPAN) and I retain some scepticism.
What you say about the guardianship of standards is correct. The quote in question relates to guardianship of the industry.
Qantas pilots are stakeholders in the 'guardianship of the industry', as are many others. I say that any suggestion along the lines that they are the sole custodians of the future of aviation is ludicrous. Anyone who thinks similarly need make no apology or feel bad for doing so, despite what you say.
The "best pilots in the world" myth is dangerous, irrespective of what ever guise it takes. This is because an attitude such as this inhibits the growth of a meaningful safety culture. Perhaps there are those at Qantas who will use the myth as a barganing chip in industrial relations matters, as you have alluded to. However, regardless of this, it still insults those pilots who are outside the Qantas mainline fold.
By making claims that marginalize other pilot groups (and here I'm thinking of other QF group pilots), AIPA is really making a rod for its own back; these people will never support you when you will need them to. I suggest that that time is closer than you think, particularly in view of recent events.
The defence of Capt Glynn by yourself and others is commendable. He should be allowed a fair hearing on this forum to explain his words, if he wishes to do so. Given the text in the news, it would be a wise thing to do so.
YesTAM, of the 4 truely frightening pilots I've flown with over the years, 3 spoke with Australian accents.
You state that posters have made certain assumptions regarding context and then go on to do the same yourself. If this guy does read PPrune, let him come on and explain himself. If he has been quoted inaccurately, well and good, but in the past I've met a good many 'skygods' who wear a QF uniform who espouse this sort of drivel, (particulary those associated with GAPAN) and I retain some scepticism.
What you say about the guardianship of standards is correct. The quote in question relates to guardianship of the industry.
Qantas pilots are stakeholders in the 'guardianship of the industry', as are many others. I say that any suggestion along the lines that they are the sole custodians of the future of aviation is ludicrous. Anyone who thinks similarly need make no apology or feel bad for doing so, despite what you say.
The "best pilots in the world" myth is dangerous, irrespective of what ever guise it takes. This is because an attitude such as this inhibits the growth of a meaningful safety culture. Perhaps there are those at Qantas who will use the myth as a barganing chip in industrial relations matters, as you have alluded to. However, regardless of this, it still insults those pilots who are outside the Qantas mainline fold.
By making claims that marginalize other pilot groups (and here I'm thinking of other QF group pilots), AIPA is really making a rod for its own back; these people will never support you when you will need them to. I suggest that that time is closer than you think, particularly in view of recent events.
The defence of Capt Glynn by yourself and others is commendable. He should be allowed a fair hearing on this forum to explain his words, if he wishes to do so. Given the text in the news, it would be a wise thing to do so.
YesTAM, of the 4 truely frightening pilots I've flown with over the years, 3 spoke with Australian accents.
Evertonian
Dunnunda & Godzone conceded defeat today in its bid for legitimacy, although it has not ruled out a fresh attempt.
Pprune contrbutor & acting Monarchist, Buster Hyman says there is no quick or easy fix to maintaining the reputations on Pprune.
The failure of the Moderators had meant an end to uncertainty for Pprune contributors, he said today.
"Potential posters on Pprune may try and court politicians and Danny, but they risk ignoring 34,000 advertisers and families of the airline staff at their peril,'' he said.
"Posters want to work to have a strong, profitable and growing Pprune and support the moderators to develop a plan for the future of the forum.''
Buster Hyman said the end of the turbulent bitching period was a particular relief for pilots.
"Qantas pilots are the guardians of the aviation forums,'' he said.
"As such, we are concerned about the future, especially when we hold the mantle of the world's dumbest threads in our hands.''
Pprune contrbutor & acting Monarchist, Buster Hyman says there is no quick or easy fix to maintaining the reputations on Pprune.
The failure of the Moderators had meant an end to uncertainty for Pprune contributors, he said today.
"Potential posters on Pprune may try and court politicians and Danny, but they risk ignoring 34,000 advertisers and families of the airline staff at their peril,'' he said.
"Posters want to work to have a strong, profitable and growing Pprune and support the moderators to develop a plan for the future of the forum.''
Buster Hyman said the end of the turbulent bitching period was a particular relief for pilots.
"Qantas pilots are the guardians of the aviation forums,'' he said.
"As such, we are concerned about the future, especially when we hold the mantle of the world's dumbest threads in our hands.''
..... and since neither of those two airlines exist any more....???
Keg,
Do you really drink your own bathwater?
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Nancy
Last Night someone had posted a correction to that statement with "Canadien". And yes I know it was spelled incorrectly. But they have since removed it. So I'm not sure what the truth is.
Excuse me, I'm Driving.
Last Night someone had posted a correction to that statement with "Canadien". And yes I know it was spelled incorrectly. But they have since removed it. So I'm not sure what the truth is.
Excuse me, I'm Driving.
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Arrogance/ relevance?
Ralph,
Yes. But that is nothing new.
A president arrogantly dismissed the Impulse/Jetstar pilots in 2003 and he, they, and the pilots he represented paid and continue to pay the price.
Now, arrogance being the style du jour, the same sorry lot tell us that there is really a cunning plan, that AIPA's conversion into a vexacious litigant is the right thing to do but we have to, so the hired help tells us, be ethical! The people who can't even keep our allowances at cabin crew levels say yes, but we must be ethical!
Ralph, if AIPA isn't even relevant to it's own pilots now,how could it ever be relevant to anyone else?
AIPA is really making a rod for its own back;
A president arrogantly dismissed the Impulse/Jetstar pilots in 2003 and he, they, and the pilots he represented paid and continue to pay the price.
Now, arrogance being the style du jour, the same sorry lot tell us that there is really a cunning plan, that AIPA's conversion into a vexacious litigant is the right thing to do but we have to, so the hired help tells us, be ethical! The people who can't even keep our allowances at cabin crew levels say yes, but we must be ethical!
Ralph, if AIPA isn't even relevant to it's own pilots now,how could it ever be relevant to anyone else?
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Lucius,
Couldn't agree with you more.
AIPA has to show the rest of the pilot community that it is a valid option for representation of the whole, not just -400 Skippers.
Continued statements like the afore mentioned only reinforce the perceived arrogance of no doubt a vocal minority at QF.
It is irrelevant how good a bloke Mike Glynn is (as would appear Keg's major defence) he has to be hed accountable for what he actually said - and as a representative of AIPA he must perhaps be more select in his comments.
I am just happy at the moment that I have not joined AIPA, as I would hate to see my contributions being hemorrhaged on useless litigation. An example of which I have heard (so I would be happy to be corrected) is $200K spent in representing a -400 Captain who wouldn't take his shoes off at a security screening - are there really those who don't think the "Sky God" mentality isn't alive and well at QF?
Cheers
Couldn't agree with you more.
AIPA has to show the rest of the pilot community that it is a valid option for representation of the whole, not just -400 Skippers.
Continued statements like the afore mentioned only reinforce the perceived arrogance of no doubt a vocal minority at QF.
It is irrelevant how good a bloke Mike Glynn is (as would appear Keg's major defence) he has to be hed accountable for what he actually said - and as a representative of AIPA he must perhaps be more select in his comments.
I am just happy at the moment that I have not joined AIPA, as I would hate to see my contributions being hemorrhaged on useless litigation. An example of which I have heard (so I would be happy to be corrected) is $200K spent in representing a -400 Captain who wouldn't take his shoes off at a security screening - are there really those who don't think the "Sky God" mentality isn't alive and well at QF?
Cheers
An example of which I have heard (so I would be happy to be corrected) is $200K spent in representing a -400 Captain who wouldn't take his shoes off at a security screening
Last edited by Capt Fathom; 9th May 2007 at 00:35.
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Lucius Vorenus...I understand that there will always be politics involved in unions and employment but could you give me examples of when tech crew get less allowances than cabin crew?
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Fathom,
By all means correct away.
Are you saying that there wasn't a QF Captain that refused to take his shoes off?
Or that it didn't cost AIPA $200K?
Your post didn't correct either of these.
By all means correct away.
Are you saying that there wasn't a QF Captain that refused to take his shoes off?
Or that it didn't cost AIPA $200K?
Your post didn't correct either of these.
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noip..I admit that I have not been to JBhurg for many a year but I do a lot of States trips and I have never seen Techies get less than us (for the same slip).
Your union did a deal or trade off with the company a few years back to change away from the formula based on Departure time and I've seen tech crew on a number of occassions get more than us.I was always told that it was because you went on arrival time instead (ex LHR).
Your union did a deal or trade off with the company a few years back to change away from the formula based on Departure time and I've seen tech crew on a number of occassions get more than us.I was always told that it was because you went on arrival time instead (ex LHR).
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lowerlobe, Techies do get less than cabin crew in all LH ports. Check it out next time you're in asia,LHR,FRA,JNB or LAX. It is do to with you guys signing off on a new deal and techies taking the company to task and not signing anything new. Just look at the single meal allowance figures rather than the total amount.
As for Capt Glynn I can only assume that his words were not meant to offend anyone, moreover an ego pat on the back due to the demise of the APA bid.
In the rat there are guys who think they are gods gift, but not anymore than what you would get in other airlines.
As for Capt Glynn I can only assume that his words were not meant to offend anyone, moreover an ego pat on the back due to the demise of the APA bid.
In the rat there are guys who think they are gods gift, but not anymore than what you would get in other airlines.
Nunc est bibendum
I see that Lucius is actively trying to re-write history:
A president dismissed the Impulse pilot group in 2001.....this is not the same lot that head AIPA now.
I don't recall dismissing the J* pilot group in 2003.....it's still a different mob now given that the 2003 mob got turfed out on their ear.
I'm not a fan of being in court 100% of the time but that isn't all of AIPA's doing. It's been a pretty consistent message from AIPA on engagement with the company.
Condition Lever continues to delude himself with his confirmation bias. You're as ignorant as the people that I come across every now and then who believe that J* must be crap because the audit results aren't published and on the basis of what a mate's mate's girlfriend told them. I tell them that they're not even getting half the story and to continue to believer something when you don't have the full story is going to bring you grief. So lose the chip on the shoulder and stop deluding yourself about AIPA based upon what you hear from those who have a significant interest in keeping the pilot groups at each other's throats.
PS: You do realise that J* has some members of AIPA and that when Mike talks about 'QF pilots' he's talking all those who are group pilots.
Finally, maybe Mike will respond on PPRUNE, maybe he won't. He won't lose any sleep over Ralph, Lucius and Condition Lever though.....their form is well known! ROFL.
Lowerlobe, AIPA and QF are still in dispute over allowances and yours is more than ours in some ports. We haven't moved to the new system based on arrival times yet- if ever. Swings and roundabouts.
A president arrogantly dismissed the Impulse/Jetstar pilots in 2003 and he, they, and the pilots he represented paid and continue to pay the price.
Now, arrogance being the style du jour, the same sorry lot tell us....
Now, arrogance being the style du jour, the same sorry lot tell us....
I don't recall dismissing the J* pilot group in 2003.....it's still a different mob now given that the 2003 mob got turfed out on their ear.
I'm not a fan of being in court 100% of the time but that isn't all of AIPA's doing. It's been a pretty consistent message from AIPA on engagement with the company.
Condition Lever continues to delude himself with his confirmation bias. You're as ignorant as the people that I come across every now and then who believe that J* must be crap because the audit results aren't published and on the basis of what a mate's mate's girlfriend told them. I tell them that they're not even getting half the story and to continue to believer something when you don't have the full story is going to bring you grief. So lose the chip on the shoulder and stop deluding yourself about AIPA based upon what you hear from those who have a significant interest in keeping the pilot groups at each other's throats.
PS: You do realise that J* has some members of AIPA and that when Mike talks about 'QF pilots' he's talking all those who are group pilots.
Finally, maybe Mike will respond on PPRUNE, maybe he won't. He won't lose any sleep over Ralph, Lucius and Condition Lever though.....their form is well known! ROFL.
Lowerlobe, AIPA and QF are still in dispute over allowances and yours is more than ours in some ports. We haven't moved to the new system based on arrival times yet- if ever. Swings and roundabouts.
Nunc est bibendum
One last point too in case I didn't make this clear.
Knowing Mike pretty well I'm very confident that he has a good handle on where QF pilots fit into the industry. His response was meant for public consumption specifically regarding the Qantas buy out debacle and I'm very confident that he wouldn't set out to denigrate the work of other pilots and what they do for upholding the standards of their respective companies. I guess this is what happens when people with a very specific agenda (anti-QF drivers) read things they way that they want them to be read. Perhaps 'guardians of Qantas standards' may have been a better way to express the intent of Mike's comments.
Anyway, I've said my bit. I still reckon you lot are a bunch of clowns with chips on your shoulders looking for ANY reason to lay one on the so-called 'sky-gods'. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
So 'stick with it' Ralph, Lucius et al because the people who read PPRUNE that really know what is going on know the hole you guys are digging for yourselves. So keep digging lads, it looks like a nice hole so far!
Knowing Mike pretty well I'm very confident that he has a good handle on where QF pilots fit into the industry. His response was meant for public consumption specifically regarding the Qantas buy out debacle and I'm very confident that he wouldn't set out to denigrate the work of other pilots and what they do for upholding the standards of their respective companies. I guess this is what happens when people with a very specific agenda (anti-QF drivers) read things they way that they want them to be read. Perhaps 'guardians of Qantas standards' may have been a better way to express the intent of Mike's comments.
Anyway, I've said my bit. I still reckon you lot are a bunch of clowns with chips on your shoulders looking for ANY reason to lay one on the so-called 'sky-gods'. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
So 'stick with it' Ralph, Lucius et al because the people who read PPRUNE that really know what is going on know the hole you guys are digging for yourselves. So keep digging lads, it looks like a nice hole so far!
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Keg mate.
Dont know the guy, but I'm happy to accept your view of the matter?
The ruckus though does point out very clearly why what we say and what other people hear are often two different things and why anybody used to speaking to the public arena usually has some training and/or the bruises and benefit of some hard won experience.
Pilots as a group are trained to think in very specific ways and communicate in a pretty standard form, thier loives and the safety of their passengers demands it. To an untrained observer, aviation comms are pretty much incomprehensible. To an untrained observer, anyone from PPL up is an expert in aviation, whether they hold themselves out as so or not.
I know what he was trying to say, but the choice of words was unfortunate. And to be brutally honest his message did get confused with the perception raised by the ghosts of Christmas past rattling their bones.
You like I have been around here long enough to know that if that ever was the case QF1 rang the chimes of change. You would also have to agree that the legends in their own lunchbox, many totally insufferable, did dig their fellow pilots a very deep hole out of which to climb.
Anyway I always thought the "Mantle of Safety" actually belonged to John Flynn.
Dont know the guy, but I'm happy to accept your view of the matter?
The ruckus though does point out very clearly why what we say and what other people hear are often two different things and why anybody used to speaking to the public arena usually has some training and/or the bruises and benefit of some hard won experience.
Pilots as a group are trained to think in very specific ways and communicate in a pretty standard form, thier loives and the safety of their passengers demands it. To an untrained observer, aviation comms are pretty much incomprehensible. To an untrained observer, anyone from PPL up is an expert in aviation, whether they hold themselves out as so or not.
I know what he was trying to say, but the choice of words was unfortunate. And to be brutally honest his message did get confused with the perception raised by the ghosts of Christmas past rattling their bones.
You like I have been around here long enough to know that if that ever was the case QF1 rang the chimes of change. You would also have to agree that the legends in their own lunchbox, many totally insufferable, did dig their fellow pilots a very deep hole out of which to climb.
Anyway I always thought the "Mantle of Safety" actually belonged to John Flynn.
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Let the sky gods bask in their own glory..................
According to The Great One G.D, they will continue the expansion of JQ and let the skygods die a slow death.........
Also heard the other day 3-5 A380's look like being painted in grey and orange.....that will stir them up a bit....
According to The Great One G.D, they will continue the expansion of JQ and let the skygods die a slow death.........
Also heard the other day 3-5 A380's look like being painted in grey and orange.....that will stir them up a bit....
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Anyway I always thought the "Mantle of Safety" actually belonged to John Flynn.
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Whilst I'm sure some Qantas pilots have been guilty of arrogance. There appears to be a lot of jealousy evident in this thread.
If Qantas does not need to pay a premium to attract and select the best applicants, or indeed airline flying has become so easy any cpl can aspire to do it, then pay and conditions will surely fall. Probably to around the level of a bus driver.
S!it stir over.
Tin hat on.
If Qantas does not need to pay a premium to attract and select the best applicants, or indeed airline flying has become so easy any cpl can aspire to do it, then pay and conditions will surely fall. Probably to around the level of a bus driver.
S!it stir over.
Tin hat on.