Rex; Pilot Exodus
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Those little planes?
Sue Ridgepipe
And that is Australia's shame. The "little aeroplanes" are an essential part of Australia's transport system that has been all but destroyed by opportunists and tax dodgers and airlines that will not spend one cent on pilot training.
The small aeroplanes are treated with contempt and not considered important by too many. The large numbers of temporary pilots who are merely exploiting the small aeroplanes as a stepping stone to a major airline, and do not consider them to be important are doing enormous damage. I sympathise with them, but I believe that the cadet who chose not to go to GA because he had no interest in it was right. If you do not want to do it, and be a bushman and work to improve it, don't go.
The attitude that "they don't matter-it's only for training" is too common and probably is one of the major causes of accidents.
Is this the underlying cause of accidents like Lockhart River?
The same people are now doing the same in bigger aeroplanes. What happens in GA is an indicator of what is coming in the major airlines.
And that is Australia's shame. The "little aeroplanes" are an essential part of Australia's transport system that has been all but destroyed by opportunists and tax dodgers and airlines that will not spend one cent on pilot training.
The small aeroplanes are treated with contempt and not considered important by too many. The large numbers of temporary pilots who are merely exploiting the small aeroplanes as a stepping stone to a major airline, and do not consider them to be important are doing enormous damage. I sympathise with them, but I believe that the cadet who chose not to go to GA because he had no interest in it was right. If you do not want to do it, and be a bushman and work to improve it, don't go.
The attitude that "they don't matter-it's only for training" is too common and probably is one of the major causes of accidents.
Is this the underlying cause of accidents like Lockhart River?
The same people are now doing the same in bigger aeroplanes. What happens in GA is an indicator of what is coming in the major airlines.
And some people wonder why cadet bashing is so prevalent on these forums.
Back to the topic.
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Peter Fanelli your reply to Mr Cantstandya, was completely out of line 
all of his points i felt were valid which begs the question whats your agenda and whos side are you on? 
all of his points i felt were valid which begs the question whats your agenda and whos side are you on?
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Yeah areal....I didn't know you got a seniorority number once you joined Pprune. If it makes you happy, you should know I'm a long term reader, first time poster!!.
naverick...good points about what the pilots in Rex should be shooting for, maybe you should go and fight for them in the next EBA discussions. I'm also glad you think the old AD FOM is such a champ. Maybe if you ask him really nice he will give you a copy of the Dallas flight plan that is part of the J* interview process...apparantly he thinks being best buddies with the CP means he can do that sort of thing and get away with it. Or better still put him down on your reference list and then wait and see to find out what he really thinks of you. I know of at least one guy that found out the hard way he wasn't well liked.
naverick...good points about what the pilots in Rex should be shooting for, maybe you should go and fight for them in the next EBA discussions. I'm also glad you think the old AD FOM is such a champ. Maybe if you ask him really nice he will give you a copy of the Dallas flight plan that is part of the J* interview process...apparantly he thinks being best buddies with the CP means he can do that sort of thing and get away with it. Or better still put him down on your reference list and then wait and see to find out what he really thinks of you. I know of at least one guy that found out the hard way he wasn't well liked.
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areal
why exactly am I an idiot? because i just joined? because i have had two posts? Comments like that pose the question "who is the idiot here???? "I have been an avid reader of this forum for over 18 months. Up until now the forum didnt offer a relative topic for me to contribute to... i was unaware that there was a time limit before your opion was accepted in writing. Further more, if you had read my post you would have understood that "I know I dont have to work my RDO's"
but because i and fellow crew members are paid a pittance we agree to work so we can make ends meet...derh... again who is the idiot? That was the point of the post...so did you read it or just see your name and decided to have a go? Also, I believed this forum was as a place to have your say without being called stupid, idiot, jerk etc... we get that at work so I certainly dont need it here!!! Especially from someone that obviously has anti crew aspect.
why exactly am I an idiot? because i just joined? because i have had two posts? Comments like that pose the question "who is the idiot here???? "I have been an avid reader of this forum for over 18 months. Up until now the forum didnt offer a relative topic for me to contribute to... i was unaware that there was a time limit before your opion was accepted in writing. Further more, if you had read my post you would have understood that "I know I dont have to work my RDO's"
but because i and fellow crew members are paid a pittance we agree to work so we can make ends meet...derh... again who is the idiot? That was the point of the post...so did you read it or just see your name and decided to have a go? Also, I believed this forum was as a place to have your say without being called stupid, idiot, jerk etc... we get that at work so I certainly dont need it here!!! Especially from someone that obviously has anti crew aspect.
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And another thing areal...
I have had the BEST ATTITUDE a crew member could have! I, up until recently, have been a big fan of Rex and passed off the crap conditions as a result of 'trying to build ourselves up again'. Well hello! We are back and as I said earlier (if you actually read my post!) I have contributed to the success so lets start operating as a professional outfit and treating crew members as such. Be careful what you persume areal.... alot of crew do behind the scene favours for the love of the company and its people which is a thankless job....dont talk to me about attitude!
I have had the BEST ATTITUDE a crew member could have! I, up until recently, have been a big fan of Rex and passed off the crap conditions as a result of 'trying to build ourselves up again'. Well hello! We are back and as I said earlier (if you actually read my post!) I have contributed to the success so lets start operating as a professional outfit and treating crew members as such. Be careful what you persume areal.... alot of crew do behind the scene favours for the love of the company and its people which is a thankless job....dont talk to me about attitude!
Nunc est bibendum
And some people wonder why cadet bashing is so prevalent on these forums
Not every former cadet and now QF driver should have been a cadet as some of them are WAY too good to be flogging around in aircraft in the middle of the night. However every cadet that I've ever flown with or talked to in QF did the cadetship irrespective of the size and/or type of aeroplane that QF asked them to fly. In fact I recall a time when every cadet I know was asking to fly something....anything and it didn't matter how big or small it was. Walking into any GA company in the nation with 'Australian Aviation College' stamped in your log book was the kiss of death for most of us.
Thread Starter
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Cheers Ejector,
This thread has nothing to do with former employees, cadets or the validity of posts from new contributors. Also attacking new contributors will reaffirm the view held by some, that pprune is the cyberspace habitation of arrogant, overgrown school children.
Most contributors agree that REX t&c's are woefully inadequate. Those of us that are employees need to decide what 'action' if any, we are willing to participate in. Whatever measures are taken, slagging off REX management is completely unnecessary and I for one will not participate in such behaviour. On the whole, they are a good bunch of people working under very 'controlling' ownership.
Waiting for the next EBA negotiations to come around seems reasonable enough, however, I would like to see employees applying a little pressure on the owners from now on. The upper echelons of REX are CURRENTLY reaping the rewards of our success. This needs to be reflected through our payslips ASAP.
I propose continued contact and support via the internet and once the 'message' is well and truly out there, COLLECTIVELY start 'working to rule'. This may involve for instance the refusal to work days off etc.
Constructive criticism and comments most welcome.
This thread has nothing to do with former employees, cadets or the validity of posts from new contributors. Also attacking new contributors will reaffirm the view held by some, that pprune is the cyberspace habitation of arrogant, overgrown school children.
Most contributors agree that REX t&c's are woefully inadequate. Those of us that are employees need to decide what 'action' if any, we are willing to participate in. Whatever measures are taken, slagging off REX management is completely unnecessary and I for one will not participate in such behaviour. On the whole, they are a good bunch of people working under very 'controlling' ownership.
Waiting for the next EBA negotiations to come around seems reasonable enough, however, I would like to see employees applying a little pressure on the owners from now on. The upper echelons of REX are CURRENTLY reaping the rewards of our success. This needs to be reflected through our payslips ASAP.
I propose continued contact and support via the internet and once the 'message' is well and truly out there, COLLECTIVELY start 'working to rule'. This may involve for instance the refusal to work days off etc.
Constructive criticism and comments most welcome.
Last edited by Naverick; 10th Apr 2007 at 01:49.
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Sorry Gallerina, Mudflat Stubby and Shooter, looks like I did jump the gun there.
It seemed a little odd that 4 new memberships in one day just to bag Rex but you all had good points there and your opinion is welcome.
Carry on!
It seemed a little odd that 4 new memberships in one day just to bag Rex but you all had good points there and your opinion is welcome.
Carry on!
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Get real!
At least REX pilot's earn their job based on merit rather than paying for their job and who they drink with on a saturday night! As for the so called pretty girls down the back..... I'd rather have a competant FA pull me out of a burning wreck than a girl making sure her hair and makeup are ok before doing anything else!
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OK I'll give some input.
Rex has a double edged sword. Considering all the expansion of larger airlines, Rex will loose some pilots regardless of pay. Some will stay because of loyalty and comfort and unwillingless to take part in the recruiting process.
They (management) are stuck by Economies of Scale. If the flight crew of a Saab get a huge pay rise then the 34 pax behind them have to pay $500 odd dollars for a ticket and so the airline fails. At the same time a potential student pilot goes to a flying school looking for tuition and is told to buy an ASIC card ($200) and pay twice for a medical ($130 to CASA) and also purchase a SPL, something new. Before the instructor has finished his schpeel the student is out the door!
And so you have a gradual lack of experienced pilot in Oz. This leads to the unbelievable ad in The Australian newspaper.
Yes we are expected to clean the cabin, yes we have to escort infirm pax and U/M's to their families. Yes we have to prepare Trims at major airports. Yes we have to empty rubbish bins and slops bottles. Yes we have to dodge B737's and walk km's on airports from carpark to crew room to aircraft to dispatch gate.
We have gone from around 1000 flights a week to 1200 with no real increase in pilot numbers. The training depatment is flat out, as are interviews. We have all had occasion where friends are knocked back and we thought they would have been perfect. But thats another story.
On the plus side...
I have always been paid promptly for casual days and have never been knocked back a roster request nor day in lieu. The "A" models will soon be gone when the B+'s arrive. If you think about it; in the unlikely event of a pilot staying with one company all the way through their career, they are an FO for 4 years out of 40 years. i.e only 10% of the time so their dreary days of bad conditions and pay are limited.
Personally I would like to see more communication. We just don't get talked to. The newsletter is just a copy of press releases. How about some more road shows? I would also like to see some roster reform such as bidding. I can also not think of another job in Australia where complicated equipment is operated for 10-11 hours straight with out a break at all. And the open letters to staff from Sing-as are a disgrace. Its this general lack of esprit-de-corp that is the reason I will be leaving soon. Sad.
Rex has a double edged sword. Considering all the expansion of larger airlines, Rex will loose some pilots regardless of pay. Some will stay because of loyalty and comfort and unwillingless to take part in the recruiting process.
They (management) are stuck by Economies of Scale. If the flight crew of a Saab get a huge pay rise then the 34 pax behind them have to pay $500 odd dollars for a ticket and so the airline fails. At the same time a potential student pilot goes to a flying school looking for tuition and is told to buy an ASIC card ($200) and pay twice for a medical ($130 to CASA) and also purchase a SPL, something new. Before the instructor has finished his schpeel the student is out the door!
And so you have a gradual lack of experienced pilot in Oz. This leads to the unbelievable ad in The Australian newspaper.
Yes we are expected to clean the cabin, yes we have to escort infirm pax and U/M's to their families. Yes we have to prepare Trims at major airports. Yes we have to empty rubbish bins and slops bottles. Yes we have to dodge B737's and walk km's on airports from carpark to crew room to aircraft to dispatch gate.
We have gone from around 1000 flights a week to 1200 with no real increase in pilot numbers. The training depatment is flat out, as are interviews. We have all had occasion where friends are knocked back and we thought they would have been perfect. But thats another story.
On the plus side...
I have always been paid promptly for casual days and have never been knocked back a roster request nor day in lieu. The "A" models will soon be gone when the B+'s arrive. If you think about it; in the unlikely event of a pilot staying with one company all the way through their career, they are an FO for 4 years out of 40 years. i.e only 10% of the time so their dreary days of bad conditions and pay are limited.
Personally I would like to see more communication. We just don't get talked to. The newsletter is just a copy of press releases. How about some more road shows? I would also like to see some roster reform such as bidding. I can also not think of another job in Australia where complicated equipment is operated for 10-11 hours straight with out a break at all. And the open letters to staff from Sing-as are a disgrace. Its this general lack of esprit-de-corp that is the reason I will be leaving soon. Sad.
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Mention 1,
$500 per passenger. Think about this:
To give your Capt's $12000 per year and F/O's $8000 thats $20000 total.
If these crews are doing on average 800hrs per year thats a cost of $25 per hour. If your average sector length at REX is 1.5hrs than thats an extra $37.5 per sector. Divide that cost by a full aircraft of 34 pax and your looking at $1.10 per pax. Even a half empty aircraft (or half full, depending on how you like to look at it) is only $2.20 per pax.
Thats not a huge increase from a customer point of view but equates to a much better package from a pilot's point of view.
I think the likes of Skippers have already missed the boat as far as retaining their experience Capts with more money. Look at Maroomba's Dash Capt's for example, they are mostly ex Skippers guys who are career Dash drivers and may have stayed if the money was better at Skippers.
REX on the other hand sound like they still have an opportunity to keep a few of their career guys so a pay rise may make the difference.
$500 per passenger. Think about this:
To give your Capt's $12000 per year and F/O's $8000 thats $20000 total.
If these crews are doing on average 800hrs per year thats a cost of $25 per hour. If your average sector length at REX is 1.5hrs than thats an extra $37.5 per sector. Divide that cost by a full aircraft of 34 pax and your looking at $1.10 per pax. Even a half empty aircraft (or half full, depending on how you like to look at it) is only $2.20 per pax.
Thats not a huge increase from a customer point of view but equates to a much better package from a pilot's point of view.
I think the likes of Skippers have already missed the boat as far as retaining their experience Capts with more money. Look at Maroomba's Dash Capt's for example, they are mostly ex Skippers guys who are career Dash drivers and may have stayed if the money was better at Skippers.
REX on the other hand sound like they still have an opportunity to keep a few of their career guys so a pay rise may make the difference.
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.........REX like all the rest are simply screwing the only thing that's screwable in this game & that's the human element, (AWA's, EBA's attest to that these days) fuel, A/C runnig costs etc are all mostly fixed & would never actually go down & if they do vary it's only upwards, unlike a pilots pay!
................thank God we love flying......right ?:-)
Capt Wally :-)
................thank God we love flying......right ?:-)
Capt Wally :-)
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I feel compelled to add to this thread. I don’t know how relevant this is but after reading the posted comments I cannot help myself. Although this may be a first post here I have been reading pprune for the last 1o years.
10 years ago I faced a dilemma. Should I start flying or shouldn’t I. It was a toss up. Should I give up 7 years of uni studies to change careers. The costs the risks etc etc. It hurt for years. The love and dream of flying a saab 340 for a regional. There was nothing that could be better. It went on for years. The decision should I or shouldn’t I.
I read pprune every week, every thread on training, cadetships etc etc. I spoke with pilots to try and get the info to lead to a decision. Every year went on and every year I would delay. I did a detailed investigation of what was required from ppl to cpl to mustering to PNG flying etc etc. I found out first hand the real risks of some of those start up jobs. Being an engineer my studies were very exhaustive. I found out facts about guys on first jobs that never made it past base one alive. Stories that you never hear about. It showed me the real risks. I remember asking a kendalls senior pilot what I had to do to get a job as a regional pilot. I remember the simple response. You fly in PNG and we will look at you. Sounded simple when said fast. When analysed against time, lost income, cost and material risk it seemed it would be a very long road just to get to the interview. God help me if he didn’t like the look of me after all that. It delayed my decision for a few more years.
10 years later I still read pprune and I still like aviation. However the reality as demonstrated by the excellent information transposed by the great people supplying the real info on pprune makes it very clear. Aviation careers are now dead ducks. The salaries and T and C quoted on these web pages for regional pilots are disgraceful. The FO salaries are ten years in arrears.
My unfortunate circumstances of 10 years ago, having no money for flight training couldn’t of been better. It fxxx saved me. Had I sacrificed my career to date for the conditions quoted in this thread I would have been disgraced with myself.
The salaries quoted above should be lifted by 50 % at the least for both Captain and FO. Having a love for flying in the early twenties versus the cost of housing and living in the year 2007 is worlds apart. With the average cost of a house at 300k and (a coffee, scon , snack and orange juice) at cibo $15 the two are worlds apart.
I sincerely wish all those flight crew who came through the GA ranks all the best out there for improving their terms and conditions. They are the true warriors of Australian aviation and the Australian spirit.
For all those other plebs who’s Uncle or Aunty worked for the majors and got them straight to the RHS of turbo props I say : Sucked in you know got what you deserve. FxxxL. You’ll know have to make some real decisions and take some real risks if you want any real money or real career. Even in the majors now the chinaman will get you.
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Emphar,
Very very interesting post.
I really do appreciate your point of view. There are some real risks involved.
When people get all their qualifications and have.... 250 hours, then they only want 500 hours. Eventually that will come, then they want 1000 hours. When that comes, even getting on a twin seems worlds away, let alone the dream of flying a SAAB or a heavy jet.
She's an interesting industry, but I think it's fair to say it is changing. Pay wise and the number of jobs going.
WWA
Very very interesting post.
I really do appreciate your point of view. There are some real risks involved.
When people get all their qualifications and have.... 250 hours, then they only want 500 hours. Eventually that will come, then they want 1000 hours. When that comes, even getting on a twin seems worlds away, let alone the dream of flying a SAAB or a heavy jet.
She's an interesting industry, but I think it's fair to say it is changing. Pay wise and the number of jobs going.
WWA
With Rex just announcing it has lost the BHP Olympic Dam charter, i feel things will get worse before it gets better. Rex is a great place to work if you stay out of trouble, we have all seen in recent weeks what can happen if you try to rock the boat. As for some of the conditions, too many of you guys are banging fa's.