Nuked by a Galah
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Nuked by a Galah
I have just been nuked from a job interview because of a record appearing on a document supplied to the (overseas) airline at my request by the ATSB.
It contains a single entry - a birdstrike (a Galah) in 1978 when I was on a navex for my private pilot’s license in a Piper Cherokee. It notes no damage or injuries (the Galah obviously doesn’t count). I was not even the pilot in command at the time – it was flown as a dual exercise.
It is listed as a “Category 4” incident, which is one of 5 categories of incident in the ATSB database. In describing the type of incident that would be included as a Category 4 incident, they list 5 types occurrences, the first few words summarized briefly as follows :
“An accident involving….”
An accident (as defined by ICAO…”
“An accident or serious incident….”
“An accident or serious incident…”
“A serious incident (as defined by ICAO…”
It most certainly was not an accident, and it’s a pretty big stretch to describe it as a serious incident, so I’m wondering what it’s all about. 29 years and 15,000 hours later that Galah has come back to haunt me!
I wonder how many other Australians have been the victims of this madness in the past?
Anyone care to comment?
It contains a single entry - a birdstrike (a Galah) in 1978 when I was on a navex for my private pilot’s license in a Piper Cherokee. It notes no damage or injuries (the Galah obviously doesn’t count). I was not even the pilot in command at the time – it was flown as a dual exercise.
It is listed as a “Category 4” incident, which is one of 5 categories of incident in the ATSB database. In describing the type of incident that would be included as a Category 4 incident, they list 5 types occurrences, the first few words summarized briefly as follows :
“An accident involving….”
An accident (as defined by ICAO…”
“An accident or serious incident….”
“An accident or serious incident…”
“A serious incident (as defined by ICAO…”
It most certainly was not an accident, and it’s a pretty big stretch to describe it as a serious incident, so I’m wondering what it’s all about. 29 years and 15,000 hours later that Galah has come back to haunt me!
I wonder how many other Australians have been the victims of this madness in the past?
Anyone care to comment?
Grandpa Aerotart
Easy.
If you're absolutely certain that this occurence is the only reason for the current problem you simply explain said occurence to them in simple terms.
If they still, having made it clear to you already that this is the one gotcha, won't entertain your application, then explain to them in even simpler terms why their airline is no longer of interest to you as a prospective employer.
I suspect it is an excuse
If it isn't just a way of fobbing you off and they genuinely won't employ you because of this one thing then do you REALLY want to work for such a mob of idiots?
Just imagine how they will react when you ram another bird in one of THEIR shiny jets...stupid crunts will go appoplectic.
If you're absolutely certain that this occurence is the only reason for the current problem you simply explain said occurence to them in simple terms.
If they still, having made it clear to you already that this is the one gotcha, won't entertain your application, then explain to them in even simpler terms why their airline is no longer of interest to you as a prospective employer.
I suspect it is an excuse
If it isn't just a way of fobbing you off and they genuinely won't employ you because of this one thing then do you REALLY want to work for such a mob of idiots?
Just imagine how they will react when you ram another bird in one of THEIR shiny jets...stupid crunts will go appoplectic.
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All contact is through the pilot agency of course.
Nothing has been omitted or embellished from the facts I presented. There is absolutely nothing to make me suspect that it is an “excuse” to drop me for some other reason. All other paperwork in order, more than 6,000 in command on type – can’t think what they are looking for if it was an excuse to drop me. Everything was proceeding smoothly until they got the “incident report”. I was due to fly over there on Sunday. Needless to say, I’m pretty pi**ed off because I’ve given up my commuting trip this month in order to be available to go to the interview. Now I’ll be wasting my commuting days in Japan.
The facts have been completely and unambiguously explained to the airline (Korean) – by the recruiting agency, although there is always a language barrier when dealing with non-native English speakers. The recruiting agency even contacted the ATSB and were told that if I’d have ticked only the “Accidents” box, the Galah “incident” would not have appeared. They then suggested this to Korean, but were told “No”.
Anyway, still wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem with ATSB.
Nothing has been omitted or embellished from the facts I presented. There is absolutely nothing to make me suspect that it is an “excuse” to drop me for some other reason. All other paperwork in order, more than 6,000 in command on type – can’t think what they are looking for if it was an excuse to drop me. Everything was proceeding smoothly until they got the “incident report”. I was due to fly over there on Sunday. Needless to say, I’m pretty pi**ed off because I’ve given up my commuting trip this month in order to be available to go to the interview. Now I’ll be wasting my commuting days in Japan.
The facts have been completely and unambiguously explained to the airline (Korean) – by the recruiting agency, although there is always a language barrier when dealing with non-native English speakers. The recruiting agency even contacted the ATSB and were told that if I’d have ticked only the “Accidents” box, the Galah “incident” would not have appeared. They then suggested this to Korean, but were told “No”.
Anyway, still wondering if anyone else has had a similar problem with ATSB.
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Consider yourself fortunate to have missed out on the job as from all the reports I have heard flying in a Korean cockpit is next to Bagdad as one of the most dangerous places on earth.
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No Galah, may I suggest the time honoured and correct question to ask yourself:
"Why would I want to fly for an airline that thinks a birdstrike is an incident entirely within your control?"
"Why would I want to fly for an airline that thinks a birdstrike is an incident entirely within your control?"
I agree with the previous posters: If this operator is actually knocking you back just on the strength on a 1978 incident in which you were not PIC, you wouldn’t want to work for them anyway.
FWIW, there’s some very muddy language in the international aviation (and maritime) accident’ / ‘incident’ rules, which has been further muddied in Australia because the Transport Safety Investigation Act squashed them all into categories of ‘accident’.
Remember the old ANR / CAR rules about ‘accidents’ and ‘incidents’? Their definitions, and the distinctions between them, had nothing to do with cause, and everything to do with severity.
An ‘accident’ was an occurrence, associated with the operation of an aircraft, in which:
(a) any person suffered death or serious injury as a result of being in or upon the aircraft or by direct contact with the aircraft or anything attached to the aircraft;
(b) the aircraft incurred damage or structural failure that adversely affected the structure strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft and would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component; or
(c) the aircraft was missing or inaccessible.
An ‘incident’ was an occurrence, other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft that affected or could affect the safety of the operation of the aircraft.
So back in 1978, you were involved in an ‘incident’.
Then some bright sparks decided to make the Transport Safety Investigation Act, which covers planes, trains and ships, and for some obscure reason, discontinued the use of the internationally recognised language and instead used just ‘accident’. So, under the current rules in Australia there’s no such thing as in ‘incident’ involving aircraft, and your 1978 ‘incident’ has become an ‘accident’.
FWIW, there’s some very muddy language in the international aviation (and maritime) accident’ / ‘incident’ rules, which has been further muddied in Australia because the Transport Safety Investigation Act squashed them all into categories of ‘accident’.
Remember the old ANR / CAR rules about ‘accidents’ and ‘incidents’? Their definitions, and the distinctions between them, had nothing to do with cause, and everything to do with severity.
An ‘accident’ was an occurrence, associated with the operation of an aircraft, in which:
(a) any person suffered death or serious injury as a result of being in or upon the aircraft or by direct contact with the aircraft or anything attached to the aircraft;
(b) the aircraft incurred damage or structural failure that adversely affected the structure strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft and would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component; or
(c) the aircraft was missing or inaccessible.
An ‘incident’ was an occurrence, other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft that affected or could affect the safety of the operation of the aircraft.
So back in 1978, you were involved in an ‘incident’.
Then some bright sparks decided to make the Transport Safety Investigation Act, which covers planes, trains and ships, and for some obscure reason, discontinued the use of the internationally recognised language and instead used just ‘accident’. So, under the current rules in Australia there’s no such thing as in ‘incident’ involving aircraft, and your 1978 ‘incident’ has become an ‘accident’.
This makes me wonder if it's worth reporting any incidents to the ATSB anymore. After all If I can't apply for a job without my confidential reports being dragged into it then what incentive do I have to report myself?
Perhaps the ATSB need to look into this.
Perhaps the ATSB need to look into this.
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So, my question is
"Does anyone else have a birdstrike listed on their ATSB report?"
Or is this a mistake? Do all birdstrikes go into the ATSB database as "Accident or serious incident".
The ATSB will give you a printed report at no charge. Just download the form from their website, fill it in and post it to them.
"Does anyone else have a birdstrike listed on their ATSB report?"
Or is this a mistake? Do all birdstrikes go into the ATSB database as "Accident or serious incident".
The ATSB will give you a printed report at no charge. Just download the form from their website, fill it in and post it to them.
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Galah has come back to haunt me!
The request form http://www.atsb.gov.au/pdfs/FlightCr...ence_check.pdf has three boxes:
1. Accidents and Incidents
2. Accidents only
3. Incidents only.
Creamy is right - that definition that a birdstrike was an 'incident' is nowhere to be found in the current regs (have just run a search on the CD 37). However the ATSB website still talks about incidents w.r.t. birdstrikes.
Soooo...if you ticked box two, would your old incidents (e.g. birdstrikes) come up?
1. Accidents and Incidents
2. Accidents only
3. Incidents only.
Creamy is right - that definition that a birdstrike was an 'incident' is nowhere to be found in the current regs (have just run a search on the CD 37). However the ATSB website still talks about incidents w.r.t. birdstrikes.
Soooo...if you ticked box two, would your old incidents (e.g. birdstrikes) come up?
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Compressor stall :
What you say is apparently correct. If I hadn't ticked the incidents box it would not have appeared.
But if any future prospective employer asks for an accident or incidents report, I'm still going to have a serious incident recorded against me.
For that reason alone I'm going to pursue this with the ATSB, but past experience with the bureaucracy of the world's most over regulated country means I won't be holding my breath.
What you say is apparently correct. If I hadn't ticked the incidents box it would not have appeared.
But if any future prospective employer asks for an accident or incidents report, I'm still going to have a serious incident recorded against me.
For that reason alone I'm going to pursue this with the ATSB, but past experience with the bureaucracy of the world's most over regulated country means I won't be holding my breath.
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Except for the first post which was reasonable and a fair questioning of what might have happened in the hiring process.....what a load of mostly Asian hating BS.
If there was a genuine misunderstanding....find out. Let me know by PM of your details and I will if no-one else will. They are strict. Some guys come here and are found to have medications in their blood which they forgot about....and it goes against them. This isn't a charity.
If you do end up coming to the peninsula, you will find maintenance like QF had maybe 20 years ago....it is simply the best in the world. Good fuel policy, no reports for go-rounds, great, just really great commute and family travel and a really modern fleet.
If the CRM isn't quite as perfect as you experts would like....whose is? QF at Bangkok....Air France at Toronto, Southwest at Midway, American at Little Rock, KLM at Teneriffe, USAF C-5 at Dover......?....and the list goes on.
As for the "pilots leaving in droves".....hmmmm....that might be the canadian pilots for tax reasons....few others that I know of and I'd know. And as for the "hating" of expats......says more about you than it does about the truth. Grow up and stop posting hateful drivel.
If there was a genuine misunderstanding....find out. Let me know by PM of your details and I will if no-one else will. They are strict. Some guys come here and are found to have medications in their blood which they forgot about....and it goes against them. This isn't a charity.
If you do end up coming to the peninsula, you will find maintenance like QF had maybe 20 years ago....it is simply the best in the world. Good fuel policy, no reports for go-rounds, great, just really great commute and family travel and a really modern fleet.
If the CRM isn't quite as perfect as you experts would like....whose is? QF at Bangkok....Air France at Toronto, Southwest at Midway, American at Little Rock, KLM at Teneriffe, USAF C-5 at Dover......?....and the list goes on.
As for the "pilots leaving in droves".....hmmmm....that might be the canadian pilots for tax reasons....few others that I know of and I'd know. And as for the "hating" of expats......says more about you than it does about the truth. Grow up and stop posting hateful drivel.
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Good fuel policy, no reports for go-rounds, great, just really great commute and family travel and a really modern fleet.
And as for the "hating" of expats......says more about you than it does about the truth. Grow up and stop posting hateful drivel
QF at Bangkok....Air France at Toronto, Southwest at Midway, American at Little Rock, KLM at Teneriffe, USAF C-5 at Dover......?....and the list goes on.
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Hmmm....according to your profile you've been around aviation for quite a while so you above all people should know that our world is divided into three groups....
1) those who have not had the greatest past but are building a great future.....
2) those who had a great past and are building a horrible second best future (I refer you to 80% of posts on Pprune about current major airlines) and.....
3) those who sit on the sidelines making inane posts and smirking about how "they" should have done it better.
If you work for Korean let me know via PM....I have enough contacts to have your 3 months notice waived so you can leave tomorrow. I've been here 11 years and think my view is as reasonable as can be had.
If you don't work here pull your bloody head in.
1) those who have not had the greatest past but are building a great future.....
2) those who had a great past and are building a horrible second best future (I refer you to 80% of posts on Pprune about current major airlines) and.....
3) those who sit on the sidelines making inane posts and smirking about how "they" should have done it better.
If you work for Korean let me know via PM....I have enough contacts to have your 3 months notice waived so you can leave tomorrow. I've been here 11 years and think my view is as reasonable as can be had.
If you don't work here pull your bloody head in.
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ATSB or KAL
Coral,
Actually I think my greatest criticism may be against the ATSB, although my money is on the simple mistake explanation.
The point of my post was to inquire if any other Australians have had such a seemingly minor incident listed against them as a category 4 incident - a "serious incident". So far no one seems to have been so marked - leading me towards the mistake explanation.
I didn't intend this as a KAL bashing post although I do admit to being a little miffed at the short notice cancellation.
This really says more about KAL than it does about ATSB.
The point of my post was to inquire if any other Australians have had such a seemingly minor incident listed against them as a category 4 incident - a "serious incident". So far no one seems to have been so marked - leading me towards the mistake explanation.
I didn't intend this as a KAL bashing post although I do admit to being a little miffed at the short notice cancellation.
