The Pilot Shortage is coming!!!
Join Date: Nov 2005
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hehe
looks like BM up in Kunus is shaking trees but no pilots are falling out
L.O.L
check out the AFAP website
(ps, any new COMs out there keen for some hours, get up there quick
)
L.O.L
check out the AFAP website
(ps, any new COMs out there keen for some hours, get up there quick
)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
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First this and Rex
and now this
I can't believe that entry level operators in the Kimberly have to advertise now. Times are changing!
Regarding Qantaslink's new minimums, surely the 10k fee won't cover the increased training costs of trying to get 700hr guys up to speed. I wonder how long it will take the bean counters to realise that it would be cheaper to offer a 10k increase in salary, drop the fee and attract a more suitably qualified/experienced candidate.
It will happen eventually. Unfortunately it will be a reactive measure after the horses have bolted - and there are going to be a lot of nice paddocks to roam around in the future.
The QL ad should read 'candidates for the formerly sought after positions' yada yada yada.............ps.don't forget your 10 grand, y12 certificate and your pencils.
QANTASLINK - FIRST OFFICERS
Qantaslink is Australia's leading regional airline, operating a fleet of Dash 8 100/200/300/400 series aircraft. We are inviting suitably qualified and highly motivated pilots to join our Flight Operations department:
Candidates for these sought after positions require:
? High School Certificate or equivalent
? Australian Permanent Residency and Passport
? Australian Commercial Pilot License with passes in ATPL Theory subjects
? 700 hours total flying experience
? 250 hours multi-engine fixed wing aircraft (command or co-pilot)
? CASA Class 1 Aviation Medical Certificate
? Ability to hold an Aviation Security Identification Card (ASIC)
Qantaslink is Australia's leading regional airline, operating a fleet of Dash 8 100/200/300/400 series aircraft. We are inviting suitably qualified and highly motivated pilots to join our Flight Operations department:
Candidates for these sought after positions require:
? High School Certificate or equivalent
? Australian Permanent Residency and Passport
? Australian Commercial Pilot License with passes in ATPL Theory subjects
? 700 hours total flying experience
? 250 hours multi-engine fixed wing aircraft (command or co-pilot)
? CASA Class 1 Aviation Medical Certificate
? Ability to hold an Aviation Security Identification Card (ASIC)
ALLIGATOR AIRWAYS - Charter/Scenic Pilot - C207 & GA8.
- Position is based in Kununurra, WA.
- Salary will be the award.
- Qualifications - CPL(A), Dangerous Goods, Class 1 Medical. Some 200 series Cessna experience advantageous.
- Start ASAP.
- Position is based in Kununurra, WA.
- Salary will be the award.
- Qualifications - CPL(A), Dangerous Goods, Class 1 Medical. Some 200 series Cessna experience advantageous.
- Start ASAP.
Regarding Qantaslink's new minimums, surely the 10k fee won't cover the increased training costs of trying to get 700hr guys up to speed. I wonder how long it will take the bean counters to realise that it would be cheaper to offer a 10k increase in salary, drop the fee and attract a more suitably qualified/experienced candidate.
It will happen eventually. Unfortunately it will be a reactive measure after the horses have bolted - and there are going to be a lot of nice paddocks to roam around in the future.
The QL ad should read 'candidates for the formerly sought after positions' yada yada yada.............ps.don't forget your 10 grand, y12 certificate and your pencils.
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GA award
http://www.afap.org.au/html/s02_arti..._id=74&dsb=431
Not that it worth too much under the new IR laws, but if a company is offering it, this is what you get.
Not that it worth too much under the new IR laws, but if a company is offering it, this is what you get.
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What are the minimum flying hours required in the RAAF of a copilot in the VIP squadron at Canberra? In my time, which was many years ago, copilots were newly graduated 210 hours from Wings course and none had ever flown multi-engine aircraft. Does this policy still apply for copilots on the BBJ and Challenger?
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We've got entry level charter positions and grade 3 salaried instructor positions being advertised and some people still believe there's no pilot shortage.
Please.....it's not just coming...it's here
Please.....it's not just coming...it's here
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It may be here but when are we going to take advantage of it?
When are we going to stop paying for ebdorsments at Jet*, Virgin, Tiger (if it happens), QFLink, etc. What about these new AWA's at Jet*.
Further on Stallies and NG's posts, soon there will be oppurtunities in GA that will be more attractive than airlines. Good companies are losing staff they cant replace and are paying good $$ to try and get them to stay.
When are we going to stop paying for ebdorsments at Jet*, Virgin, Tiger (if it happens), QFLink, etc. What about these new AWA's at Jet*.
Further on Stallies and NG's posts, soon there will be oppurtunities in GA that will be more attractive than airlines. Good companies are losing staff they cant replace and are paying good $$ to try and get them to stay.
Oh how times have changed. Ten years ago a pilot walking into some companies looking for a job was treated like rubbish by snotty little receptionists. Remember the phrase "The Chief Pilot doesn't see anyone without an apppointment." ? (Try getting one)
Now everyone from entry level bush jobs, to regionals, to jet operators are advertising. Jobs which pilots would once have considered going to retirement in are now seen as stepping stones to something better.
Companies are having to cancel leave and work people to the max to cover the shortfall. Recruitment has become far less selective, from the days of "endorsed and 500hrs on type" the net has had to be broadened to include people who will require quite a bit of training. Fewer people will end up having to accept below the award, and those that do won't stay more than a few months before jumping ship once they have a few hundred hours.
How many youngsters these days can afford $100 000 training from 0 to airline job. Pilots in the past have been paid wages that checkout operators in coles wouldn't accept, F/Os on modern turbo props earnt less than forklift drivers.
Even airlines will find it harder to find their model applicant and will have to accept people who can do the job but are older, have a strange temprement, are over weight, don't present as well as they could etc. Particularly if they are looking at people to pay for their endorsements at their own risk. Soon they will have to offer bonds to those they really want to employ rather than have them come type rated.
Interesting times and long overdue, make the most of them.
Now everyone from entry level bush jobs, to regionals, to jet operators are advertising. Jobs which pilots would once have considered going to retirement in are now seen as stepping stones to something better.
Companies are having to cancel leave and work people to the max to cover the shortfall. Recruitment has become far less selective, from the days of "endorsed and 500hrs on type" the net has had to be broadened to include people who will require quite a bit of training. Fewer people will end up having to accept below the award, and those that do won't stay more than a few months before jumping ship once they have a few hundred hours.
How many youngsters these days can afford $100 000 training from 0 to airline job. Pilots in the past have been paid wages that checkout operators in coles wouldn't accept, F/Os on modern turbo props earnt less than forklift drivers.
Even airlines will find it harder to find their model applicant and will have to accept people who can do the job but are older, have a strange temprement, are over weight, don't present as well as they could etc. Particularly if they are looking at people to pay for their endorsements at their own risk. Soon they will have to offer bonds to those they really want to employ rather than have them come type rated.
Interesting times and long overdue, make the most of them.
Metro man,
F/O's on modern turboprops are still being paid less than forklift drivers.
If some mangements do not move quickly, and I mean quickly, they will lose their airline.
F/O's on modern turboprops are still being paid less than forklift drivers.
If some mangements do not move quickly, and I mean quickly, they will lose their airline.
Krusty
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Metro man, maybe the snotty receptionist might find him/herself on the otherside of the fence as the company that he/she works for closes due no available drivers. Sweet justice that would be.
Yep remember the feeling of being look at, talked to and treated like vermen infront of customers whilst holding a resume trying to have a go.
Times have changed yes. I hope they stay
Yep remember the feeling of being look at, talked to and treated like vermen infront of customers whilst holding a resume trying to have a go.
Times have changed yes. I hope they stay
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Shortage is agreed
Ok, so a pilot shortage has without doubt been proven.
But where will it all go, remembering that we work in an environment where 3 major airlines operate similar aircraft on similar routes, albeit, providing a different product to the public.
Does this mean short haul pilots, of any company, should be employed under similar conditions ? Is it any easier to operate an A320 between Sydney and Melbourne than it is a B737?
But then we come to product. Can a low cost carrier afford such equality ? Even when a shortage would dictate that to hold onto pilots with any experience some improvement to conditions is required.
At the moment it may be more cost effective to have a guy arrive, pay for his own training and then leave in a couple of years, than it is to improve his(or her, sorry) conditions and hold onto that experience. How does an operational mentality of this type affect the standard of aviation ? Do current technology jet aircraft allow pilots with a lower level experience to operate them ? What about judgement ?
Emirates, a Sydney base for Tiger, Etihad, all offering more than Australian (and Singapore) based airlines.
Interesting times ahead, but how should it all pan out ? What should it mean for a Jet* or QF pilot ? And can the 3 big operators in Australia afford it ?
But where will it all go, remembering that we work in an environment where 3 major airlines operate similar aircraft on similar routes, albeit, providing a different product to the public.
Does this mean short haul pilots, of any company, should be employed under similar conditions ? Is it any easier to operate an A320 between Sydney and Melbourne than it is a B737?
But then we come to product. Can a low cost carrier afford such equality ? Even when a shortage would dictate that to hold onto pilots with any experience some improvement to conditions is required.
At the moment it may be more cost effective to have a guy arrive, pay for his own training and then leave in a couple of years, than it is to improve his(or her, sorry) conditions and hold onto that experience. How does an operational mentality of this type affect the standard of aviation ? Do current technology jet aircraft allow pilots with a lower level experience to operate them ? What about judgement ?
Emirates, a Sydney base for Tiger, Etihad, all offering more than Australian (and Singapore) based airlines.
Interesting times ahead, but how should it all pan out ? What should it mean for a Jet* or QF pilot ? And can the 3 big operators in Australia afford it ?
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12 Seconds, you ask some good questions. velverthammer made some good points HERE
I don't necessarily agree with on everything, but VH raises questions.
IMHO this can be broken down into 3 parts.
1) Current pilots
Those already in the industry, once sufficient experience is gained there are a large number of jobs offshore. These pilots can trade the Oz lifestyle for income elsewhere. They have a huge range of choices
2) Retirements
Retirements, not much more can be done to extend people in the industry. If the have made wise financial & relationship choices they will leave at a time of there choosing, getting to 60 from July 1 is important, then its dealers choice.
For the rest they will stay while they can pass medicals and their checks.
3)Newbies
This is where it get interesting. There is no one defined career path & support in aviation, unlike many other professions.
Look at the law, medicine, accounting, engineering, there is support through training loans (HECS, government acts as lender of last resort), graduate training (internship) & final certification.
For the non-military pilot, lets look at the available support. UPFRONT cost $60,000+. No discount, no commercial loan, no government assistance.
A CPL is rarely viewed outside the industry as a qualification of any value to a potential employer.
Then what, head somewhere remote to earn $30,000+ pa for a couple of years, maybe paying another $10,000~ $20,000 (Endorsements & IR) along the way for more training.
Then if everything goes right, a jet job comes up, pay another $30,000 to earn $70,000, then you end up in category one.
Not only that, generally speaking the window of opportunity to enter the industry is closed by the time you are about 23 (exceptions as always), as other pressures diminish the ability to have the selfish life that flying training & the first job demands.
So in the current climate of skills shortages, Gen Y have a huge range of choices if they commit to some training. Apprentices earn as they go, university graduates can defer HECS to have a lifestyle, then work OS for a while before returning.
I am sure many school leavers who consider aviation look at the upfront costs, the risk of actually achieving their goal & the T&C that they can expect (VB/J* - QF is now the A-scale and closed to newbies) and decide that it just isn't worth it.
The demographics of the workforce dictate that soon the retirement rate will exceed the entry rate, aviation is no exception.
So after all that, training costs have increased sharply, whilst T&C have declined. Compared to what else is on offer to Gen Y, it appears unwilling to take the huge risk & diminishing rewards that an aviation career represents.
Once upon ago, aviation was a well paid job compared to almost all others, today this is just not the case, there are many jobs that exceed aviation. macquarie bank has 10,000 employees on an AVERAGE renumeration of $360,000.
In the end, whatever we say or think or argue is irrelevant, it is those willing (or unwilling) that will decide the future of aviation in Oz. The large operators need to provide some certainty BEFORE newbies commit the $100,000, and improve T&C's. Yet I see just the opposite.
If operators want to maintain the status quo or expand, they will need to address this issue..
The real question is can they afford not to improve T&C's. Gen Y has a choice, & they will decide the future of the industry.
I don't necessarily agree with on everything, but VH raises questions.
IMHO this can be broken down into 3 parts.
1) Current pilots
Those already in the industry, once sufficient experience is gained there are a large number of jobs offshore. These pilots can trade the Oz lifestyle for income elsewhere. They have a huge range of choices
2) Retirements
Retirements, not much more can be done to extend people in the industry. If the have made wise financial & relationship choices they will leave at a time of there choosing, getting to 60 from July 1 is important, then its dealers choice.
For the rest they will stay while they can pass medicals and their checks.
3)Newbies
This is where it get interesting. There is no one defined career path & support in aviation, unlike many other professions.
Look at the law, medicine, accounting, engineering, there is support through training loans (HECS, government acts as lender of last resort), graduate training (internship) & final certification.
For the non-military pilot, lets look at the available support. UPFRONT cost $60,000+. No discount, no commercial loan, no government assistance.
A CPL is rarely viewed outside the industry as a qualification of any value to a potential employer.
Then what, head somewhere remote to earn $30,000+ pa for a couple of years, maybe paying another $10,000~ $20,000 (Endorsements & IR) along the way for more training.
Then if everything goes right, a jet job comes up, pay another $30,000 to earn $70,000, then you end up in category one.
Not only that, generally speaking the window of opportunity to enter the industry is closed by the time you are about 23 (exceptions as always), as other pressures diminish the ability to have the selfish life that flying training & the first job demands.
So in the current climate of skills shortages, Gen Y have a huge range of choices if they commit to some training. Apprentices earn as they go, university graduates can defer HECS to have a lifestyle, then work OS for a while before returning.
I am sure many school leavers who consider aviation look at the upfront costs, the risk of actually achieving their goal & the T&C that they can expect (VB/J* - QF is now the A-scale and closed to newbies) and decide that it just isn't worth it.
The demographics of the workforce dictate that soon the retirement rate will exceed the entry rate, aviation is no exception.
So after all that, training costs have increased sharply, whilst T&C have declined. Compared to what else is on offer to Gen Y, it appears unwilling to take the huge risk & diminishing rewards that an aviation career represents.
Once upon ago, aviation was a well paid job compared to almost all others, today this is just not the case, there are many jobs that exceed aviation. macquarie bank has 10,000 employees on an AVERAGE renumeration of $360,000.
In the end, whatever we say or think or argue is irrelevant, it is those willing (or unwilling) that will decide the future of aviation in Oz. The large operators need to provide some certainty BEFORE newbies commit the $100,000, and improve T&C's. Yet I see just the opposite.
If operators want to maintain the status quo or expand, they will need to address this issue..
The real question is can they afford not to improve T&C's. Gen Y has a choice, & they will decide the future of the industry.