The Pilot Shortage is coming!!!
Grandpa Aerotart
YD what % of those CPLs were awarded to Chinese cadets?
The Oz flying colleges don't issue em with Chinese ones you know...they get those on the basis of their Oz ones when they get home.
The Oz flying colleges don't issue em with Chinese ones you know...they get those on the basis of their Oz ones when they get home.
A good look around Bankstown or Moorabbin airports will tell you there is something seriously wrong with the flying training industry in Australia. When I learnt to fly at Bankstown in the mid 80’s it was the busiest airport in the southern hemisphere. You had to book weeks in advance to get a flying lesson. Today it’ a ghost town. Moorabbin’s the same. Almost all the training at Parafield and Jandakot is cadet training for foreign airlines, mostly from Asia. This leaves Archerfield. It too is in a steady decline.
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...Neither can the operator! 'There's the cost of aircraft acquisition, insurance, fuel, landing fees, ground staff, etc. What?!? You mean we have to pay the bloody pilots too?!? We thought they were so blinded by their addiction to flying, that they'd do it for peanuts or even nothing!'
I used to think that in order to be successful in this game, you had to have a passon for flying to the point of obsession. To illustrate a point, I once sat on an interview panel for Year-12 graduates applying for entry to a B.Tech Aviation degree through one of this country's larger tertiary establishments. I would have personally interviewed close to thirty applicants on the day, all of whom demonstrated some very impressive scores for their VCE, and clearly would have had little trouble coping with the academic workload. Nevertheless the issue for me was just how passionate they were about a career in aviation, assessed by their background knowledge and some aviation history. I gauged this by simply asking every one of them at one point in the interview if they knew who Chuck Yeager was.
Only one person claimed to have ever heard of him - and couldn't even tell me what he was famous for. In other words, it would be like someone wanting to study classical piano at the Australian Music Conservatory, and never having heard of Beethoven! I was staggered by their ignorance.
However, in recent times I've come to see a different side of things: I spent 11 years in aviation putting up with crap jobs, crap pay, crap aircraft, etc. All in the hope that maybe one day, if I put up with it long enough, my ship would come in. Trouble is, even when you think you've finally cracked the big time and landed that "dream" job, you discover that you're still underpaid (in relative terms), you still have to put up with crap, and the time spent on the job and constantly being on call at the whim of your superiors is no longer worth the allure of flying that originally got you hooked in the first place.
I think more and more young kids are starting to realise that passion alone just ain't enough. If the $$$ aren't right, there are plenty of other careers which are just as satisfying and pay a whole lot better. I've loved aviation all my life, and there are some aspects of it that I still find very appealing - but these days I don't want love, I want $$$. "Show me the money!" Thus, if the T&C's aren't right, I'm not that desperate to log another hour in the cockpit. Unfortunately, as long as pilots are hostages to their own addiction for flying, there will always be some out there who will fill the empty seats, no matter what the conditions. And management knows it. This is what has driven down conditions in the industry, yet at the same time will ultimately lead to its demise if/when more of us finally do wake up to the fact that it ain't what it used to be.
I used to think that in order to be successful in this game, you had to have a passon for flying to the point of obsession. To illustrate a point, I once sat on an interview panel for Year-12 graduates applying for entry to a B.Tech Aviation degree through one of this country's larger tertiary establishments. I would have personally interviewed close to thirty applicants on the day, all of whom demonstrated some very impressive scores for their VCE, and clearly would have had little trouble coping with the academic workload. Nevertheless the issue for me was just how passionate they were about a career in aviation, assessed by their background knowledge and some aviation history. I gauged this by simply asking every one of them at one point in the interview if they knew who Chuck Yeager was.
Only one person claimed to have ever heard of him - and couldn't even tell me what he was famous for. In other words, it would be like someone wanting to study classical piano at the Australian Music Conservatory, and never having heard of Beethoven! I was staggered by their ignorance.
However, in recent times I've come to see a different side of things: I spent 11 years in aviation putting up with crap jobs, crap pay, crap aircraft, etc. All in the hope that maybe one day, if I put up with it long enough, my ship would come in. Trouble is, even when you think you've finally cracked the big time and landed that "dream" job, you discover that you're still underpaid (in relative terms), you still have to put up with crap, and the time spent on the job and constantly being on call at the whim of your superiors is no longer worth the allure of flying that originally got you hooked in the first place.
I think more and more young kids are starting to realise that passion alone just ain't enough. If the $$$ aren't right, there are plenty of other careers which are just as satisfying and pay a whole lot better. I've loved aviation all my life, and there are some aspects of it that I still find very appealing - but these days I don't want love, I want $$$. "Show me the money!" Thus, if the T&C's aren't right, I'm not that desperate to log another hour in the cockpit. Unfortunately, as long as pilots are hostages to their own addiction for flying, there will always be some out there who will fill the empty seats, no matter what the conditions. And management knows it. This is what has driven down conditions in the industry, yet at the same time will ultimately lead to its demise if/when more of us finally do wake up to the fact that it ain't what it used to be.
Last edited by The Bunglerat; 15th Jan 2007 at 06:16.
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What exactly can Pelair, Jetcraft, Skippers, Pearl and co do to prevent the exodus to jet jobs? It musn't be pay because I know many a pilot from these outfits who are little better off (and had to pay $35K for the privilege) by moving to their shiny jet job.
What's to stop them licking that problem with some generously funded, state-driven programs? What's then to stop them keeping the factories turning, and exporting their newly-minted pilots to Australia with sponsored 457 visas?
I should have said ‘The Experienced Pilot Shortage is Coming’. Soon ‘experience’ will mean the regulatory minimums as opposed to insurance minimums.
As I mentioned before, I am only highlighting a specific trend; not a industry wide shortage. The good times will come. We just need to give it a kick along.
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figures:
986 cpl's =
-150 odd to CSWAFC (supposed to increase from when i was there)
- 80 odd to SIA
- 80 odd to bae etc
- 60 odd to indian training program
= thats getting close to half without considering the foreigners here on student visas...
not to mention the airvan and caravan influx which equals not much multi time.
oh and what about the newly trained uninvolved pilots. you can do shortened cpl programs in jandakot now in less than 6 months. not the apprenticeship and long syllabus requirements of the past.
how is this training helping the fact that even though there may be a pilot shortage occuring the training recieved is not allowing the now undertrained pilot to recieve higher pay conditions.
higher fuel and operating costs and more fighting over scraps leads me to wonder if its all just about equaling out... ??
(forgive my drunken ramblings)
986 cpl's =
-150 odd to CSWAFC (supposed to increase from when i was there)
- 80 odd to SIA
- 80 odd to bae etc
- 60 odd to indian training program
= thats getting close to half without considering the foreigners here on student visas...
not to mention the airvan and caravan influx which equals not much multi time.
oh and what about the newly trained uninvolved pilots. you can do shortened cpl programs in jandakot now in less than 6 months. not the apprenticeship and long syllabus requirements of the past.
how is this training helping the fact that even though there may be a pilot shortage occuring the training recieved is not allowing the now undertrained pilot to recieve higher pay conditions.
higher fuel and operating costs and more fighting over scraps leads me to wonder if its all just about equaling out... ??
(forgive my drunken ramblings)
figures:
986 cpl's =
-150 odd to CSWAFC (supposed to increase from when i was there)
- 80 odd to SIA
- 80 odd to bae etc
- 60 odd to indian training program
= thats getting close to half without considering the foreigners here on student visas...
986 cpl's =
-150 odd to CSWAFC (supposed to increase from when i was there)
- 80 odd to SIA
- 80 odd to bae etc
- 60 odd to indian training program
= thats getting close to half without considering the foreigners here on student visas...
In 2006 QF put on "0" pilots- Don't expect 2007 to too exciting either. And they still have sh!tloads on file if and when the big pilot dry comes- not including the ongoing cadet program.
Plenty of Jobs O/S at the moment though. Pay rises with other large airlines and very quick commands at some of the emerging start ups.
Good luck to all, if you are both patient and persistant you will achieve your goals
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Don't know about Oz but in NZ our CAA is working as we speak (I use the term 'working' loosely) on imposing flight experience minimums for part 135 operators. They are prescribing minima for everything from single engine scenic to single pilot IFR being the most restrictive. Now, a few have said "hooray, the ball will soon be in our court" but having looked over the draft rule, I realise that my boss has never hired anyone with less than the prescribed hours and still has a drawer overflowing with CVs and new ones arriving daily from pilots whose flight time exceeds the proposed minimums. He is getting nervous though. Perhaps he's seen a future when pilots don't come to him on their hands and knees and beg to work for peanuts. The worst nightmare of a GA operator?
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A good look around Bankstown or Moorabbin airports will tell you there is something seriously wrong with the flying training industry in Australia. When I learnt to fly at Bankstown in the mid 80’s it was the busiest airport in the southern hemisphere. You had to book weeks in advance to get a flying lesson. Today it’ a ghost town. Moorabbin’s the same. Almost all the training at Parafield and Jandakot is cadet training for foreign airlines, mostly from Asia. This leaves Archerfield. It too is in a steady decline.
I agree...... it's a shocker. And I thought I was the only who has noticed it.
What's worse is I''ve heard the BK schools will probably will have to move to Camden.
D6
Now lets compare that to the other end of the Australian employment scale
Poto,
Not quite correct .... QF MAINLINE may not have employed, however what about QF GROUP (jetstar etc)?
Not quite correct .... QF MAINLINE may not have employed, however what about QF GROUP (jetstar etc)?
The Link has had some growth but making candidates pay for the endo has back fired. (In case your wondering- straight from the mouth of a highly regraded C & T )
Quality has plummeted as with all those out fits when they expand rapidly and expect self funded employees.
If seniority went it would be a bloodbath in this country as there would be expat pilots all over the world bidding for command slots. Not to mention pay. I'm sure Cathay and Emirates drivers would be happy to take a small pay reduction to pick up a QF or Virgin command based in Syd or Mel.
Unforunately the market in Australia is to small to open it up as such. It would be absolutely fantastic if you're an airline however, you'd have an almost unlimited supply of very experienced pilots from all over the world under bidding each other to get jobs. To consider that option as a pilot based in Australia is unthinkable. Yeah it works in Europe only because the labour market is in the pilots favour and they can pick and choose once they get experience. Asia has a shortage of drivers and nowehere to get experience guys from locally, so they have no choice.
Your argument also doesn't hold a lot of water in an airline environment when dealing with high experience candidates (as you would be for say advertised DE command slots as you have a great deal of difficulty differentiating them.
If all the candidates have the aptitude to get the job (becuase they do as they have passed the initial screening), and they all are good pilots (and they will be because they have to pass all the cyclical training ) then how the hell do you start differenitaing between candidates. Also if considering pilots from other major airlines how can you verify his training records? However with your own guys you review his entire career with a click of a button.
One thing seniority does is rules out "jobs for the boys". You will not get a command just because you are best mates with the chief pilot. For the airline seniority encouarges loyalty and the captains you are getting are of a known quantity.
And even with the seniority system you still have to pass command training. It's not like your number comes up then you get a job. Your number comes up and then the hard work begins.
Unforunately the market in Australia is to small to open it up as such. It would be absolutely fantastic if you're an airline however, you'd have an almost unlimited supply of very experienced pilots from all over the world under bidding each other to get jobs. To consider that option as a pilot based in Australia is unthinkable. Yeah it works in Europe only because the labour market is in the pilots favour and they can pick and choose once they get experience. Asia has a shortage of drivers and nowehere to get experience guys from locally, so they have no choice.
Your argument also doesn't hold a lot of water in an airline environment when dealing with high experience candidates (as you would be for say advertised DE command slots as you have a great deal of difficulty differentiating them.
If all the candidates have the aptitude to get the job (becuase they do as they have passed the initial screening), and they all are good pilots (and they will be because they have to pass all the cyclical training ) then how the hell do you start differenitaing between candidates. Also if considering pilots from other major airlines how can you verify his training records? However with your own guys you review his entire career with a click of a button.
One thing seniority does is rules out "jobs for the boys". You will not get a command just because you are best mates with the chief pilot. For the airline seniority encouarges loyalty and the captains you are getting are of a known quantity.
And even with the seniority system you still have to pass command training. It's not like your number comes up then you get a job. Your number comes up and then the hard work begins.
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neville nobody....good call mate!!!
Seniority is everything...it money$$$,...its time off,...its schedule....its equipment!!!!.......it may not always be fair...but its the best we have when you combine all issues
Seniority sucks when your on the bottom,....but it.s bloody good when you have a good #.....attitudes change dramatically after you put in a few years with an airline....most want payback for years of service...thats the way the system works......
What gets me is many think seniority only prevails in the airline world...try another occupation...we are no different...PB
Seniority is everything...it money$$$,...its time off,...its schedule....its equipment!!!!.......it may not always be fair...but its the best we have when you combine all issues
Seniority sucks when your on the bottom,....but it.s bloody good when you have a good #.....attitudes change dramatically after you put in a few years with an airline....most want payback for years of service...thats the way the system works......
What gets me is many think seniority only prevails in the airline world...try another occupation...we are no different...PB
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neville nobody....good call mate!!!
Seniority is everything...
Seniority is everything...
At least while im number 800/800 I know where I stand and can sit happy for the next 30 years knowing that my time will come and the the CP's best mate wont come back from Asia in 10 years time and take my shot at a command when im number 401.
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I'm sure Cathay and Emirates drivers would be happy to take a small pay reduction to pick up a QF or Virgin command based in Syd or Mel.
Conditions at QF are heading down the drain and DJ doesn't stack up in terms of time off vs pay.
Fact of the matter is that both QF & DJ are actually losing pilots to both CX & EK.
At the end of the day any shortage can only be a good thing for us all.
Don't forget that the context of the conversation is direct entry commands at QF!! Yeah sure noone is going to take pay cuts to be a QF 2nd Officer for 8 years. However to leave wherever in the world you are and come to Australia and be an instant Captain is a whole new ball game. So you guys don't think that people will be happy to undercut a current long haul captains pay for a shot at a direct entry command??
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Well said ITZ.
Barring world wide down turns in Aviation, experienced aviators are usually sought after and are in very high demand around the globe at the moment.
If more ozzi pilots were brave enough to venture else where for better conditions then the rest remaining in Oz would have a much better chance at maintaining or bettering their current T&Cs as well.
IMHO we generally don't want to ever give up and admit defeat as professional aviator so it becomes very difficult to say enough is enough and bugger off some where else. Seniority, a belief that our union will make it better, or that eventually our boss will see it our way all contribute to our intransigence as a group. The end result is a career filled with bitching and whinging and an inability to enjoy our hard earned jobs that really should be enjoyable.
There is life outside your national airline and you are not sentenced to life without parole. No where is perfect but there are plenty of opportunities to enjoy your jobs elsewhere guys. Life is to short to spend it bitter and twisted.
Remember that most of us will work until we retire, then shortly there after we die.
Barring world wide down turns in Aviation, experienced aviators are usually sought after and are in very high demand around the globe at the moment.
If more ozzi pilots were brave enough to venture else where for better conditions then the rest remaining in Oz would have a much better chance at maintaining or bettering their current T&Cs as well.
IMHO we generally don't want to ever give up and admit defeat as professional aviator so it becomes very difficult to say enough is enough and bugger off some where else. Seniority, a belief that our union will make it better, or that eventually our boss will see it our way all contribute to our intransigence as a group. The end result is a career filled with bitching and whinging and an inability to enjoy our hard earned jobs that really should be enjoyable.
There is life outside your national airline and you are not sentenced to life without parole. No where is perfect but there are plenty of opportunities to enjoy your jobs elsewhere guys. Life is to short to spend it bitter and twisted.
Remember that most of us will work until we retire, then shortly there after we die.
Having recently left Qantas to work for an overseas based operator I can happily say it's the best career move I've ever made.
Once you make the leap you will not look back
Judging by the number of emails/phone calls/private messages on Qroom that I've received, I'd say that Qantas is in for quite a shock.
Once you make the leap you will not look back
Judging by the number of emails/phone calls/private messages on Qroom that I've received, I'd say that Qantas is in for quite a shock.
Last edited by Veruka Salt; 17th Jan 2007 at 09:34. Reason: dyslexia . . .