Virgin Blue EBA get thumbs up.........Not
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The overwhelming response to the EBA is the first step to improving what is potentially a great company. Congrats to everyone involved. Would probably be able to count on one hand the number of times a pilot body has stood together. Bickering aside, it is in managements hands now and lets hope they are wise enough to handle it with the integrity it requires. Watch this space.....
The next step will be for VB managment to hint at the huge number of pilots who want to come home from abroad. Hundreds of highly qualified, cashed up expatriates who will fuel Virgin Blue's regional jet and international expansion.
Bluff or bite?
I say bluff. But ask around. Get the jump on management. The market may not be there! Don't be hoodwinked with the consistancy of the Impulse/Jetstar group.
Bluff or bite?
I say bluff. But ask around. Get the jump on management. The market may not be there! Don't be hoodwinked with the consistancy of the Impulse/Jetstar group.
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QUOTE: How's flying around with an engine mounting bracket attached to your wing workin' out for you?
Hows running a 747 off the end of the runway going for YOU Higgins ??
Hey, I got a new name for QF............FIGJAM
Hows running a 747 off the end of the runway going for YOU Higgins ??
Hey, I got a new name for QF............FIGJAM
Grandpa Aerotart
If the attitudes of virtually all my mates working overseas is representative there aint a HUGE group of expats mouthing at the bit to race home to ****e T&Cs...anymore.
I would say the attitude of most of us is "**** that, have you seen the contract, I'll stay here and retire earlier and/or wealthier"
Lots of ex AN whingers have gone home and effectively stuffed J* as a pleasant workplace for the foreseeable future.
Many of us remaining, including some ex AN good guys, just smiled and waved bye bye
I would say the attitude of most of us is "**** that, have you seen the contract, I'll stay here and retire earlier and/or wealthier"
Lots of ex AN whingers have gone home and effectively stuffed J* as a pleasant workplace for the foreseeable future.
Many of us remaining, including some ex AN good guys, just smiled and waved bye bye
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I think the fact that 87% of the guys are now united, they will stand just as strong for the rest of the negotiations... They need to. I don't think there is anything unreasonable about the log of claims... A mid way point is fair for all, and the pilot group would be happy to meet there
Lets hope management are willing to do the same for the sake of the company!!
Lets hope management are willing to do the same for the sake of the company!!
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Got to agree with some of the posts above - there just aren't people looking to come home to fly an Embraer (or any jet) for that type of money.
Contract companies are SCREAMING for experienced drivers worldwide.
Hold tight guys - you're about to realise some serious leverage.
Contract companies are SCREAMING for experienced drivers worldwide.
Hold tight guys - you're about to realise some serious leverage.
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It's not the group it's the nature of the industry... supply and demand.. when supply is excess and demand is low, conditions suffer. When an airline starts up, like VB or JQ, of course it's going to take advantage of excess supply.
Now that the supply is drying up and the airlines have established, the tide is turning. We are winning back power and conditions will get better. It is cyclic. Look back over the conditions 50 years ago till now. It hasn't always been good.
Heros on here who claim that they are better because they didn't have to pay for endorsements and claim anyone who has paid for endorsements are driving conditions down are intellectually inept and don't even deserve answering to.
I hope I'm never a passenger on one of their aircraft, as they probably don't have the intellectual capacity to think outside the square.
Now that the supply is drying up and the airlines have established, the tide is turning. We are winning back power and conditions will get better. It is cyclic. Look back over the conditions 50 years ago till now. It hasn't always been good.
Heros on here who claim that they are better because they didn't have to pay for endorsements and claim anyone who has paid for endorsements are driving conditions down are intellectually inept and don't even deserve answering to.
I hope I'm never a passenger on one of their aircraft, as they probably don't have the intellectual capacity to think outside the square.
Did you actually go to a pilot factory to learn that "intellectual" response?
You don't think PFT has driven down the ability of the industry to negotiate a livable wage?
You're acting like an alcoholic who is sitting on a park bench blaming the economy why they can't get a job.
The common mistake in all of your own decisions is you, Einstein!
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Good on ya buddy. Your post doesn't even warrant a response and I vow this will be the last one you'll get unless you write something not resembling horse manure.
Firstly supply and demand is a very basic economic principle that drives all markets, including labour markets. I have studied economics but you don't have to have half a brain to understand it. Sorry but you may struggle with that one.
Secondly, I have been flying airliners for some years now, I love my job and have done well out of it. So when you don't know s#it don't say bull s#it.
Thirdly, neither I nor any people you refer to have made mistakes. Market forces are just as uncontrollable as the tides buddy. If you think you or anybody can control them then I have given you too much credit for the little intelligence I thought you had.
You and one or two others seem to be the only ones on here souring the otherwise good news that a pilot group is showing unity and strength. You will mostly be ignored, including by me from now on.
Oh and it such a shame you have gone to America, I bet the village you left really misses not having thier idiot around.
Oh how awe inspiring! How intellectual!
Somebody held your family hostage and "forced" you to sign a contract of indentured servitude did they?
You've studied economics; wow!! I'm so impressed. So you really are an Einstein aren't you? So what happens when this new found unity comes to a screeching halt as your employer comes back to you and puts out a help wanted sign? Will the people that they employ that won't be paying for their jobs be considered scabs?
For agreeing to PFT in the first place you have held up your own sign that says, "We're desperate". How the hell do you think you have any power to renegotiate anything now? It's taken 15 years so far to repair the damage that PFT has done to the industry in the USA, and we still have a way to go.
My "village" in Australia is still quite proud to call me one of their own and my American children feel quite welcome in either place. I will be down at Easter to make a donation to the PMQ SLSC if you want to talk about this some more. My background does include a degree in this field and it has been very useful in turning the tide before.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 12th Jan 2007 at 01:32.
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ahhh, cunninglinguist does it again..the typical Jetstar defensive attitude comes out yet again.......hasn't anybody ever told you linguist, holier than thou attitudes are bad in aviation....
Well done to the VB guys.....good to see people making a stand. Something that the J* heros really can't attest to.
Well done to the VB guys.....good to see people making a stand. Something that the J* heros really can't attest to.
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..........without wishing to divert this thread and incur the wrath of the mods.......... but
....can i remind you that in 1989 the afap had 98% of the domestic pilots "united" before resigning en masse................
..........play it real cool guys!.................
I think the fact that 87% of the guys are now united, they will stand just as strong for the rest of the negotiations...
..........play it real cool guys!.................
Different circumstances now. In 89 both TN and AN were exposed equally to industrial action, therefore niether was going to get be at a commercial disadvantage by taking the pilots on. Virgin and QF pilots are now industrially seperate. If any pilot group took an industrial stand it would expose that organisation to the other one moving in and cleaning up market share. Do you think management would risk that? No. Whilst DJ management will bluff and bluster ultimately they will need to come to an acceptable arrangement with their pilots. So yes indeed play it cool, but stand firm in doing so.
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what you say is correct bleve but that was not my point.make sure that when the **** hits the fan,it's only those 13% that sign up for the awa.if more roll up,the game plan will crumble like a deck of house cards.
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And do you guys really want to risk losing your jobs to the red tails while your aircraft are repainted and sent to Europe and Africa?
To give some perspective to the Virgin Blue people, will you forsake Cathay or Dragonair, to come home and fly an EMB, eating your lunch out of a brown paper bag, whilst flying max hours without the lure of overtime?
Would any of your friends do it?
Lets help them ( VB ) out here. The Impulse guys were hoodwinked with bluffs of the expatriate hoardes returning home. They are now looked on professionally, as if they've slept with their sister!
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Well done DJ pilots, hats off to you. Then again, from what I heard they offered, it was almost a foregone conclusion!
AO pilots just recently told management where to stick their latest EBA offer (yuk - very messy), and QF shorthaul guys likewise suggested a similar course of action by a 3/4 majority. The QF longhaul EBA is up soon, and pilot sentiment (among both old-timers and newbies) is not much different to the above.
Looks like there are a lot of very soiled and smelly EBA proposals sitting on Airline Management desks around the country at the moment! Maybe one day they'll get the message.
AO pilots just recently told management where to stick their latest EBA offer (yuk - very messy), and QF shorthaul guys likewise suggested a similar course of action by a 3/4 majority. The QF longhaul EBA is up soon, and pilot sentiment (among both old-timers and newbies) is not much different to the above.
Looks like there are a lot of very soiled and smelly EBA proposals sitting on Airline Management desks around the country at the moment! Maybe one day they'll get the message.
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Heh, actually they've already done something similar to that a couple of times.......and, well to be honest I hope Management aren't doing what most voting pilots are repeatedly telling them to do, otherwise they'd be feeling rather uncomfortable by now.
They've kinda upped the offers from "what, do you think we're idiots or something?" through "still pretty bloody insulting" and on to its current stage of "better, but you're really going to keep trying this caper on, aren't you?"
They've kinda upped the offers from "what, do you think we're idiots or something?" through "still pretty bloody insulting" and on to its current stage of "better, but you're really going to keep trying this caper on, aren't you?"
Congratulations VB Pilots. This SHOULD/MAY get through to the people dancing around under the mushrooms in the old Telstra building. You van but hope!!!! It surprises me that 70+ guys thought that this document was worth more than toilet paper. But, I guess you all know who the sychophants are by now. As far as guys overseas wanting to come back, there will always be SOME. But of those I have spoken to here in the sand, there are NOT that many Australians who want to come and work for the present conditions, especially after talking to those of us who have experienced it. There will be a few more from various African countries seeking citizenship (understandably so if you saw where they are from!), but the ability to crew a whole operation from here would be very unlikely (ask Jetstar). Good luck in the coming negotiations, and remember-as you have just demonstrated, their is strength in unity. The management has committed to a course of action (EMB) and will not risk the loss of face in the media that postponing/delaying this will entail. The ball is definately in YOUR court for a change. Make sure you use your best endeavours!!
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It's not the group it's the nature of the industry... supply and demand.. when supply is excess and demand is low, conditions suffer. When an airline starts up, like VB or JQ, of course it's going to take advantage of excess supply.
Now that the supply is drying up and the airlines have established, the tide is turning. We are winning back power and conditions will get better. It is cyclic. Look back over the conditions 50 years ago till now. It hasn't always been good.
Now that the supply is drying up and the airlines have established, the tide is turning. We are winning back power and conditions will get better. It is cyclic. Look back over the conditions 50 years ago till now. It hasn't always been good.
Example: House prices are going berserk in Perth. Yet there are still some bargains to be had - some homeowners aren't hanging on for the best price. Had a mate nearly pick up a house in Freo for $300k until someone offered the old digger $550k. The old digger would have been happy with $300k, ten times what he paid for it way back when. And he hadn't done any research, he backed out after he went and told a neighbour what a great price he was going to get for his house!
Supply and demand will assist pilot wages go up, but only if pilots sell for what they are worth, not what the employer would like to offer.
Supply and demand was part of the mix when airline pilot wages started going up in the late '50s to '70s. But it wasnt just plain 'market forces' at work. It took determined, disciplined and protracted industrial action and lobbying.
Employers resisted paying higher wages then, and they will resist paying higher now. No point sitting back and hoping 'the market' will do the work for you.
VB boys and girls - well done in Round 1 of the big match. Watch out for Round 2, management will come out swinging with their Plan B.