Morale in QANTAS
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Whilst I agree with griffinblack original post to some extent, (which summarised was "if you don't like it leave-stop whinging!") I believe he doesn't fully appreciate the extent of animosity QF has to its own staff.
I have recently left QF after 20 yrs as a line maint LAME because I saw no future progression in it for me and joined the Department of Defence.
In my experience of both organisations, QF staff are much more efficient and treated much worse for their efforts.
I guess griffinblack is ultimately right. Why bust your arse working for Qantas and get teated like s#$t if you can take it easy working for the Department of Defence and get treated like a human being??
I have recently left QF after 20 yrs as a line maint LAME because I saw no future progression in it for me and joined the Department of Defence.
In my experience of both organisations, QF staff are much more efficient and treated much worse for their efforts.
I guess griffinblack is ultimately right. Why bust your arse working for Qantas and get teated like s#$t if you can take it easy working for the Department of Defence and get treated like a human being??
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Numbskull,
I understand where you're coming from, but that is not what griffinblack is on about:
griffinblack isn't suggesting one stays put the sheltered workshop; he is suggesting that the whingers head off overseas with their families and live in a third world lav. A little rich coming from his peaceful life in a Defence Housing Authority suburban dwelling...
VI
I understand where you're coming from, but that is not what griffinblack is on about:
Gents,
I am over the whole Qantas low morale thing. If your morale is low and you don’t like were your company is taking you, you have a very powerful option. LEAVE. There are plenty of jobs for LAME, AME and pilots all over the country and indeed globally.
Stop bleating.
I am over the whole Qantas low morale thing. If your morale is low and you don’t like were your company is taking you, you have a very powerful option. LEAVE. There are plenty of jobs for LAME, AME and pilots all over the country and indeed globally.
Stop bleating.
VI
Last edited by Victor India; 21st Nov 2006 at 13:28.
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numbskull and Victor India. Thanks for a more balanced understanding of what, perhaps somewhat clumsily, I was originally trying to say. I think numbskull has the closer appreciation eg there are other well paid opportunities that involve some risk but certain reward still out there. These can be domestic (particularly for AME and LAME’s – involving good remuneration) but can also be overseas. VI - I don't subscribe to needing to head O/S, just that it IS an option (and indeed may be attractive for a variety of reasons).
On another note, I assure you my own lifestyle is not ‘settled’ in the ADF. I move my family regularly (different schools, new job for my spouse and the shear embuggerance of moving), I deploy on exercise and operations etc etc. I am sheltered to the extent that I have ‘guaranteed’ employment. However, rest assured that if I felt as you guys seem to (I don’t – I really enjoy my job) that I would ‘get out’ in a heartbeat. No whining, no bleating, no whinging – just ‘see you later, I’ve got a job with …..’
On another note, I assure you my own lifestyle is not ‘settled’ in the ADF. I move my family regularly (different schools, new job for my spouse and the shear embuggerance of moving), I deploy on exercise and operations etc etc. I am sheltered to the extent that I have ‘guaranteed’ employment. However, rest assured that if I felt as you guys seem to (I don’t – I really enjoy my job) that I would ‘get out’ in a heartbeat. No whining, no bleating, no whinging – just ‘see you later, I’ve got a job with …..’
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Mate, what you do not seem to grasp, and herin you display your complete lack of worldly experience, is that the rug is being pulled from under ALL of us.
Jetstar and Virgin pay scales and conditions of employment are significantly lower than has previously been paid.
Where then would you have a QF pilot go if he / she isn't happy? We are supposedly at the top of our tree in Oz? The answer is NOWHERE in Australia.
OK, overseas you say? Well, hello? Some of us have families, young children, WE DON'T WANT TO GO OVERSEAS!
OK, find another career you say? Yeah, good idea Einstein. Most of us are not in the position to do that, financially, or physically.
Wake up and smell the coffee my friend.
Don't bother telling me or my colleagues not to complain, until you have walked a mile in my shoes. And believe me, I HAVE walked a mile in yours.
Jetstar and Virgin pay scales and conditions of employment are significantly lower than has previously been paid.
Where then would you have a QF pilot go if he / she isn't happy? We are supposedly at the top of our tree in Oz? The answer is NOWHERE in Australia.
OK, overseas you say? Well, hello? Some of us have families, young children, WE DON'T WANT TO GO OVERSEAS!
OK, find another career you say? Yeah, good idea Einstein. Most of us are not in the position to do that, financially, or physically.
Wake up and smell the coffee my friend.
Don't bother telling me or my colleagues not to complain, until you have walked a mile in my shoes. And believe me, I HAVE walked a mile in yours.
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In the past, many pilots who did NOT want to go overseas were forced to do so in order to retain employment in the industry. And, yes, they also had families with kids at school. It wasn't easy BUT the financial rewards were there.
Are you guys nearing that decision?
Are you guys nearing that decision?
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I was under the impression that the only reason a pilot left QF, was retirement or medical. To me 3 in a year for any other reason would be a lot, 3 in a month indicates a problem. And also that perhaps the grass is greener these days elsewhere. I'm not a pilot, but this is the perception I have gathered over the years.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Did a rare overnight in MEL last night and the PJ scuttlebutt is that a fourth QF F/O will resign in the next week or so, and that at least a further four are awaiting the nod from EK...!
But there's no morale problem because people aren't leaving....
But there's no morale problem because people aren't leaving....
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All QF LH FO's have a command endorsement on the type they operate. It allows QF to cheaply fly heavy crews with one captain instead of the two that other airlines use.
Qantas isn't losing FO's, they are losing experienced cruise captains paid at an FO rate.
Other airlines, short of experienced captains are starting to look long and hard at the huge reserve of experience, and the heavy metal command endorsements that these pilots have.
Memo Qantas management: If you are waiting for a bunch of captains to leave before you do anything.... it's already happening.
Qantas isn't losing FO's, they are losing experienced cruise captains paid at an FO rate.
Other airlines, short of experienced captains are starting to look long and hard at the huge reserve of experience, and the heavy metal command endorsements that these pilots have.
Memo Qantas management: If you are waiting for a bunch of captains to leave before you do anything.... it's already happening.
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Not that I feel sorry for young Geoff in the slightest but I think he might have his hands full for the first time in his capacity at QF. All he is thinking about right now is all he probably ever thinks about and that is himself.
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Ok, morale must be really low if these guys are going to EK.
I thought that the conditions in EK were worse than Qantas ($$), but of course that's not all we want I guess.
So what's the go, is that true?
I thought that the conditions in EK were worse than Qantas ($$), but of course that's not all we want I guess.
So what's the go, is that true?
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Found an easy way to cut and paste, some details have been changed slightly,(just in case some one in the office objects). Not included are educational expences paid direct to the school by Ek. Make of it what you will. I will answer any questions via PM.
Exchange rate-(conservative and rough) 3AED=1 $ AUD
Payments
Appointment Allowan 60,000.00 (TRI, training Capt. allowance)
Appointment Allowan 3,220.81
Appointment Allowan 400.00
Basic Salary 363,600.00
Concessional Travel 565.00
Education Support A 15,460.70
Exchange Rate Prote 26,940.00 (because $oz is much stronger now)
Productivity Pay Ca 40,700.60 (over time)
Profit Share 34,050.00 (thanks Boss! has been up to 10 weeks in past)
Telephone Allowance 540.00
Transport Allowance 9,900.00 (TRI, transport to sim allowance as above)
Transport Allowance 532.26
Utilities Allowance 116,465.00 (now 125,000)if not using company provided
housing. Not enough for rent though.
Total Gross 671,990.34
Deductions
Concessional Travel 15,290.00 (escape coupons)
EK Clinic Dental Ai 25.00
EK Clinic Miscellan 33.00
EK Clinic Over the 819.00 (drugs)
Education Support A 1,780.00 (exra above what EK pays)
Medical Company Ins 1,450.00
Medical Employee In 100.00
Medical Insurance P 2,859.96 (for family)
PF B Account Contri 18,200.25 (like super contribution without the hassel)
Perdiem Expenses De 1,700.14 ?
Telephone Charge Re 5,679.65
Visa Immigration Ch 5,062.00 (for family maid)
Total deductions 53,000.00
Net Pay Amount 619,000.37
Exchange rate-(conservative and rough) 3AED=1 $ AUD
Payments
Appointment Allowan 60,000.00 (TRI, training Capt. allowance)
Appointment Allowan 3,220.81
Appointment Allowan 400.00
Basic Salary 363,600.00
Concessional Travel 565.00
Education Support A 15,460.70
Exchange Rate Prote 26,940.00 (because $oz is much stronger now)
Productivity Pay Ca 40,700.60 (over time)
Profit Share 34,050.00 (thanks Boss! has been up to 10 weeks in past)
Telephone Allowance 540.00
Transport Allowance 9,900.00 (TRI, transport to sim allowance as above)
Transport Allowance 532.26
Utilities Allowance 116,465.00 (now 125,000)if not using company provided
housing. Not enough for rent though.
Total Gross 671,990.34
Deductions
Concessional Travel 15,290.00 (escape coupons)
EK Clinic Dental Ai 25.00
EK Clinic Miscellan 33.00
EK Clinic Over the 819.00 (drugs)
Education Support A 1,780.00 (exra above what EK pays)
Medical Company Ins 1,450.00
Medical Employee In 100.00
Medical Insurance P 2,859.96 (for family)
PF B Account Contri 18,200.25 (like super contribution without the hassel)
Perdiem Expenses De 1,700.14 ?
Telephone Charge Re 5,679.65
Visa Immigration Ch 5,062.00 (for family maid)
Total deductions 53,000.00
Net Pay Amount 619,000.37
...Oh promotion as well.
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Friday, November 24, 2006
619,000.37 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham = 217,610 Australian Dollar
619,000.37 Australian Dollar (AUD) = 1,760,770 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham (AED)
Median price = 0.35126 / 0.35155 (bid/ask)
Estimated price based on daily US dollar rates.
FXConverter - Currency Converter for 164 Currencies164 Currency Converter © 1997-2006 by OANDA.com.
So tell me, that was for a training captain.
Ok, so the tax system is better over there, but is it worth living in the sandpit!
I must add though, if EK would put up a Sydney base, then that would be interesting.
619,000.37 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham = 217,610 Australian Dollar
619,000.37 Australian Dollar (AUD) = 1,760,770 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham (AED)
Median price = 0.35126 / 0.35155 (bid/ask)
Estimated price based on daily US dollar rates.
FXConverter - Currency Converter for 164 Currencies164 Currency Converter © 1997-2006 by OANDA.com.
So tell me, that was for a training captain.
Ok, so the tax system is better over there, but is it worth living in the sandpit!
I must add though, if EK would put up a Sydney base, then that would be interesting.
Last edited by 32megapixels; 24th Nov 2006 at 04:37.
Atleast one of these 767 F/Os is going to Cathay, based in OZ on very comparable t & c's to those he currently enjoys in Qantas.
Others have been discussing Direct Entry Command contracts with Air Japan.The opportunities are out there. Supply and demand works both ways . .
Others have been discussing Direct Entry Command contracts with Air Japan.The opportunities are out there. Supply and demand works both ways . .
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CHOICES CHOICE CHOISES, its all about (work)CHOICES
If you are (overly)ambitious, ie actually want to make it to the left seat, the choice is to go elsewhere. If you are in the left hand seat already or want the Oz lifestyle stay.
However, there are significant financial risks to remaining in Oz.
Oil shock.
A government owned operator in a oil rich province has to be a better bet than a either a public or private qf.
Takeover risk
If MaqBank is successful, this puppy is going to mortgaged to the hilt. Any crisis could precipitate a financial train wreck. Guess who bears the risk? The staff, suppliers and customers.
"Consider also the value of the deal if interest rates continue to rise next year, Qantas has a mid-air calamity and oil prices skyrocketed"
Chanticleer, AFR Friday 24 Nov 2006
This would put a private qf into a chapter 11 style scenario. Think your superannuation is safe because it is in a separate company?
My understanding of the Ansett insolvency, staff become creditors, fighting to get your their own contributions, plus 9% since 1992, despite more generous entitlements in their contracts, ouch!
Could this happen again?
Of course, now we have super choices, moving your money elswhere may be prudent.
If you are (overly)ambitious, ie actually want to make it to the left seat, the choice is to go elsewhere. If you are in the left hand seat already or want the Oz lifestyle stay.
However, there are significant financial risks to remaining in Oz.
Oil shock.
A government owned operator in a oil rich province has to be a better bet than a either a public or private qf.
Takeover risk
If MaqBank is successful, this puppy is going to mortgaged to the hilt. Any crisis could precipitate a financial train wreck. Guess who bears the risk? The staff, suppliers and customers.
"Consider also the value of the deal if interest rates continue to rise next year, Qantas has a mid-air calamity and oil prices skyrocketed"
Chanticleer, AFR Friday 24 Nov 2006
This would put a private qf into a chapter 11 style scenario. Think your superannuation is safe because it is in a separate company?
My understanding of the Ansett insolvency, staff become creditors, fighting to get your their own contributions, plus 9% since 1992, despite more generous entitlements in their contracts, ouch!
Could this happen again?
Of course, now we have super choices, moving your money elswhere may be prudent.
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Hi all,
Having considered this very situation, I am about to remove my super from quaintarses grasp and stick it into an independant aussie share fund.
Having had a reasonable amount of super from elsewhere when I joined, I would be especially bitter if GD nicked off with his share of the $110 mil, leaving me the crumbs.
And on morale again...
Do you ever bother to peruse PPrune GD? I guess not.
Perhaps the Chief Accountant does. I was reading an article about how most of the "easy" cost savings had been implemented in the relentless QF drive to the bottom line. One of those is, I assume, the fuel levy on Staff Travel. Maaaaate if you think that was an "easy" money saver, you are in for a rough ride. it has been taken very badly by all the staff I have talked to.
Having had a reasonable amount of super from elsewhere when I joined, I would be especially bitter if GD nicked off with his share of the $110 mil, leaving me the crumbs.
And on morale again...
Do you ever bother to peruse PPrune GD? I guess not.
Perhaps the Chief Accountant does. I was reading an article about how most of the "easy" cost savings had been implemented in the relentless QF drive to the bottom line. One of those is, I assume, the fuel levy on Staff Travel. Maaaaate if you think that was an "easy" money saver, you are in for a rough ride. it has been taken very badly by all the staff I have talked to.
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F/O's leaving
One would think that even on a salary which was less than other F/O's around the world, the F/O's would stay since motivation isn't primarily influenced by financial remuneration, and that the Australian lifestyle offerings would outweigh the difference in salary that QF offer.
Since they are leaving at an alarming rate anyway, one really needn't take a long hard look at the scenario to figure out that the cause must be morale/job satisfaction related.
Is it any wonder when it's going to take anything up to 18 years for a Captaincy??
Ugh....
520.
Since they are leaving at an alarming rate anyway, one really needn't take a long hard look at the scenario to figure out that the cause must be morale/job satisfaction related.
Is it any wonder when it's going to take anything up to 18 years for a Captaincy??
Ugh....
520.
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Promotion is not the only reason that crew are leaving .Back in the 70's it would take nearly that time for promotion as well.We had second officers with that much experience or close to it and who could actually do take offs and landings.
No this is more about the light at the end of the tunnel being extinguished.If you know what is going to happen when you get to that stage most will wait but now when you get to that point the rewards will not be worth the wait.
No this is more about the light at the end of the tunnel being extinguished.If you know what is going to happen when you get to that stage most will wait but now when you get to that point the rewards will not be worth the wait.