Jetstar Safety Concerns
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The AO A/C were 120min ETOPS and engineering were required to carry out the ETOPS departure check before EVERY flight, whether the sector was ETOPS or not, in order to prove AO's ETOPS ability. I see no reason for jetstar to get it easy.
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Eagle,
My point was to illustrate why the process can be sped up by CASA. J* may be the owners of the maint control manual but, if anything like AO, it is merely a document that points you back to the QF system of maint (as they are the people doing the work in an already proven system - CASA kinda likes that idea.
The MCM is really only a peice of paper that CASA approves it is the reliability of your operation they really want to see before they issue extended range authorities.
If everyone got over their long haul, short haul, J*, QF ego's you would see that if it was your train set, you would take the good from whatever sets you had if it made playing more fun. So although the execs hate mail line, they do like some parts of what we do, they just won't admit it.
At the end of the day they are just planes going from A to B and this is just a delaying tactic with a lot of un-founded points in the media release.
Everyone needs a job and some may be sitting on shakier ground than others hence the nervousness about the approval - do you think AIPIA is concerned about saftey or trying to put a temporary spanner in the works for J* - what will that ultimately achieve?
My point was to illustrate why the process can be sped up by CASA. J* may be the owners of the maint control manual but, if anything like AO, it is merely a document that points you back to the QF system of maint (as they are the people doing the work in an already proven system - CASA kinda likes that idea.
The MCM is really only a peice of paper that CASA approves it is the reliability of your operation they really want to see before they issue extended range authorities.
If everyone got over their long haul, short haul, J*, QF ego's you would see that if it was your train set, you would take the good from whatever sets you had if it made playing more fun. So although the execs hate mail line, they do like some parts of what we do, they just won't admit it.
At the end of the day they are just planes going from A to B and this is just a delaying tactic with a lot of un-founded points in the media release.
Everyone needs a job and some may be sitting on shakier ground than others hence the nervousness about the approval - do you think AIPIA is concerned about saftey or trying to put a temporary spanner in the works for J* - what will that ultimately achieve?
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B McB
I have no difficulty with fast track approvals. I also believe in what is best for the Group. But process and procedure must be matched experience. The Ansett B747 introduction is an good example of CASA not provideing the correct oversight of a "Gung Ho" (but great blokes)operations team. One or two of the CASA inspectors in the melbourne office should have good recall of that incident.
oz
I would think CASA will have difficulty if what you say about NTL maint control is spot on. JQ can outsource the maintenance work. They cannot outsource their authority.
I have no difficulty with fast track approvals. I also believe in what is best for the Group. But process and procedure must be matched experience. The Ansett B747 introduction is an good example of CASA not provideing the correct oversight of a "Gung Ho" (but great blokes)operations team. One or two of the CASA inspectors in the melbourne office should have good recall of that incident.
oz
I would think CASA will have difficulty if what you say about NTL maint control is spot on. JQ can outsource the maintenance work. They cannot outsource their authority.
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Geoff will be choking on his lobster and french champagne lunch. How dare that nasty AIPA put hurdles in the way of his precious el cheapo airline.
And what will CASA do? Can CASA be taken before the courts to delay the process further assuming they roll over to qantas wishes? And will those public servants put their balls on the line making a call like this based on safety concerns?
Good to see AIPA leaders showing some cojones after all those years of the organisation behaving like a bunch of pussies. You have to smile.
And what will CASA do? Can CASA be taken before the courts to delay the process further assuming they roll over to qantas wishes? And will those public servants put their balls on the line making a call like this based on safety concerns?
Good to see AIPA leaders showing some cojones after all those years of the organisation behaving like a bunch of pussies. You have to smile.
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I can see Geoff's reaction to this now........
Ring Ring
GD - Oh I say Al, seems like we had better roll over on this one and give
the Jetstar International flying to Qantas pilots, after all it is their
birthright!
AJ - No worries GD, we'll just send the yarpies back to the sandpit, oh, and
what should we pay the Qantas boys.
GD - Better make it keen, what about AO rates, that oughta do it.
AJ - OK, well just re- do the business plan based on a 20% increase in pilot
costs, might hurt the bonus a little though!
GD - Yeah, I hear you regarding the bonus, but it looks like we have no
option. Clever boys those AIPA lads.
Click.
Then, sometime later......
Ring Ring
GD. - Hello
AJ - G'day GD, ah you know that pesky little problem we had with the ETOPs
approval?
GD - Yeah, did you get my boys onto it?
AJ - Well we did , but unfortunately it did not solve the problem, you see
CASA pointed out that it did not matter who was crewing the
aircraft, given that it was a different AOC they would only give us
120 minutes ETOPs.
GD - Bloody beaurocrats, I'll call Johnny.
AJ - Yes, well it gets worse, seems that we could not get any experienced
Qantas pilots for AO money, so we ended up training a whole bunch
of F/o's to Captains. This combined with the additional wage bill has
blown our business plan out of the water.
GD - Well f@#k it then, close the bloody thing down, we might as well get
Qantas to do the whole thing. Smart boys those AIPA lads, saw this
one coming.
Dream on fellas.
This little publicity stunt will only serve to strengthen the company's resolve to marginalise, destabilise and generally undermine AIPA and its members.
Ring Ring
GD - Oh I say Al, seems like we had better roll over on this one and give
the Jetstar International flying to Qantas pilots, after all it is their
birthright!
AJ - No worries GD, we'll just send the yarpies back to the sandpit, oh, and
what should we pay the Qantas boys.
GD - Better make it keen, what about AO rates, that oughta do it.
AJ - OK, well just re- do the business plan based on a 20% increase in pilot
costs, might hurt the bonus a little though!
GD - Yeah, I hear you regarding the bonus, but it looks like we have no
option. Clever boys those AIPA lads.
Click.
Then, sometime later......
Ring Ring
GD. - Hello
AJ - G'day GD, ah you know that pesky little problem we had with the ETOPs
approval?
GD - Yeah, did you get my boys onto it?
AJ - Well we did , but unfortunately it did not solve the problem, you see
CASA pointed out that it did not matter who was crewing the
aircraft, given that it was a different AOC they would only give us
120 minutes ETOPs.
GD - Bloody beaurocrats, I'll call Johnny.
AJ - Yes, well it gets worse, seems that we could not get any experienced
Qantas pilots for AO money, so we ended up training a whole bunch
of F/o's to Captains. This combined with the additional wage bill has
blown our business plan out of the water.
GD - Well f@#k it then, close the bloody thing down, we might as well get
Qantas to do the whole thing. Smart boys those AIPA lads, saw this
one coming.
Dream on fellas.
This little publicity stunt will only serve to strengthen the company's resolve to marginalise, destabilise and generally undermine AIPA and its members.
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As a Gingerbeer earwigging this thread I am amazed at you guys taking potshots at you own union, Fk we just ousted the imbeciles running our union and all us look forward to open and accountable dialogue (it will be something new to us). They also said it's about time Engineers and pilots, as the only two certified individuals by a regulatory authority, join together and make the company accountable on it's safety and IR issues.
I mean it think,
The Australian
Pilot's President, Engineer's President sit down to discuss ways to make their associations one.
Yes you may laugh and you may laugh hard but as you do think of that cold shudder that just ran down Dixon's IR manager's spine.
The ball is in your court, hit it to the ALAEA
I mean it think,
The Australian
Pilot's President, Engineer's President sit down to discuss ways to make their associations one.
Yes you may laugh and you may laugh hard but as you do think of that cold shudder that just ran down Dixon's IR manager's spine.
The ball is in your court, hit it to the ALAEA
Folks,
Might I suggest the No1 reason Jetstar can be confident of getting rapid 180 minute approval, not twigged by anybody in previous posts, is that there is a whole new management in the CASA Airline branch.
The “Why did we string out the approval--- because we could” mob have gone. The CASA treatment of AA EROPS (and a lot of other operational approvals) was a travesty, a gross misuse of delegated authority.
Perusal of the (proposed) EDT (ne. EROPS/ETOPS) rules might also help temper some of the conspiracy theories.
Perhaps one more thing to consider, when EROPS started, nobody knew much about it, everybody coped. Given the wealth of experience now available, crew training will be a no non-event
Tootle pip!!
Might I suggest the No1 reason Jetstar can be confident of getting rapid 180 minute approval, not twigged by anybody in previous posts, is that there is a whole new management in the CASA Airline branch.
The “Why did we string out the approval--- because we could” mob have gone. The CASA treatment of AA EROPS (and a lot of other operational approvals) was a travesty, a gross misuse of delegated authority.
Perusal of the (proposed) EDT (ne. EROPS/ETOPS) rules might also help temper some of the conspiracy theories.
Perhaps one more thing to consider, when EROPS started, nobody knew much about it, everybody coped. Given the wealth of experience now available, crew training will be a no non-event
Tootle pip!!
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Originally Posted by SkyScanner
Out of curiosity.. does anyone know how many EK pilots have gone to J*?
All this scuttle butt about ETOPs - I can tell you that it is just as potentially dangerous flying a 4 engine aircraft over the Indian ocean with no where to go -its not just powerplants that cause probs! The sooner that all agencies realise this then the less hassle a two engine jet will have.
The guys from EK all have over 10 000 hours, most with over 3000 widebody command either check training etc time,Infact some are even ex QF so maybe they should get QF salary in retrospect?? Like thats really gonna happen!!
Think the QF boys need to get out a bit more and wake up and smell the roses - I pity the boys who arent/dont already have their commands 'cos I suspect that all the 787s will go to J* if they make the plan fly. So progression will slow considerably.
Good luck AIPA you will need it!
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I have had a bit of a look at the requirements for ETOPS approval. Although there are a number of regulatory hoops to be passed through I am unable to find anything that refers to, or requires any tech crew experience other than the ability to hold an ATPL appropriate to the aircraft.
It refers to engine/airframe combinations - Airbus input
Systems reliability
Systems redundancy
Maintenance procedures
Airport Availability
Weather Criteria
etc
I cannot find a single reference to minimum aircrew experience for ETOPS.
Am I missing something? Or is this all just a big windup by AIPA?
It refers to engine/airframe combinations - Airbus input
Systems reliability
Systems redundancy
Maintenance procedures
Airport Availability
Weather Criteria
etc
I cannot find a single reference to minimum aircrew experience for ETOPS.
Am I missing something? Or is this all just a big windup by AIPA?
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Now, let me see. I'm going to take a weally big pwane from point A to point B acwoss the water. Then I gonna have a ETOPS Entry Point here and an ETOPS Exit Point there. Now the weather at some alternate airports is going to have to meet this cloud base and Viz. Shhhh###tt, that was hard to work out. How am I ever goin to fly it. ????? Now I know what AIPA is so concerned about. AIPA. What a rag outfit. 
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Typically, pilots show thier complete lack of industrial savvy. AIPA, you say?
No, the idiots here hanging said association. Ever heard of playing the game? Thats what happening here.
Now, before you go troppo at my comment of industrial savvy, forget about AIPA past and watch AIPA new.
Read the latest AIPA newsletter? Times have changed.....
No, the idiots here hanging said association. Ever heard of playing the game? Thats what happening here.
Now, before you go troppo at my comment of industrial savvy, forget about AIPA past and watch AIPA new.
Read the latest AIPA newsletter? Times have changed.....
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Turbo,
Exactly my point in earlier posts, crew training would have to be one of the least things CASA is worried about (not that it does not have to be completed) but an experienced ETOPS crew is far less significant than a proven, reliable aircraft with the required parts fitted getting them there.
It is not like a crew needs 1000 hours experience flying ETOPS sectors and then they are now elligible - like I said a last ditch effort by the association to prevent the inevitable - pick your battles I say. Maybe trying to unite pilots together would be a priority , as long as individuals are selling themselves cheaper than the next man the company will do as it pleases - wouldn't you.
Exactly my point in earlier posts, crew training would have to be one of the least things CASA is worried about (not that it does not have to be completed) but an experienced ETOPS crew is far less significant than a proven, reliable aircraft with the required parts fitted getting them there.
It is not like a crew needs 1000 hours experience flying ETOPS sectors and then they are now elligible - like I said a last ditch effort by the association to prevent the inevitable - pick your battles I say. Maybe trying to unite pilots together would be a priority , as long as individuals are selling themselves cheaper than the next man the company will do as it pleases - wouldn't you.
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Not exactly a wind up.. But attrocious sensationalist reporting by the Today show and channel nine.. They are the ones who accused AIPA of saying the pilots were not experienced enough..
We all know that the flying bit of ETOPS is easy once you get your head around it.
Read the article again.
Not once does AIPA accuse the pilots of not having enough experience. AIPA accuses JETSTAR (the operation) of not having enough experience.
We all know that the flying bit of ETOPS is easy once you get your head around it.
Read the article again.
Not once does AIPA accuse the pilots of not having enough experience. AIPA accuses JETSTAR (the operation) of not having enough experience.
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It says Jetstar has "limited operational, engineering, maintenance and experience base
I have read the article and the quote above is from it.
Which is why I replied that the Maintenance will be done by the same people and organisation that looks after the QF fleet now, which is why I don't think the AIPA argument will hold water.
For if you argue that Jetstar Int is not safely maintained to operate ETOPS therefore the QF fleet is same. If you beleive the QF fleet is unsafe why is that you have waited for a start-up airline to make your voice heard.
Don't shoot this messenger because I like to see AIPA play the game and shoot a broadside across managements bow but the above is how I see AIPA's arguemnt being reported in the press.
Bolty
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Aw! C'mon guys...Leadsled summed it up!
Etops/Erops...call it what you like!...
It's a non event to professional pilots!!
Strewth!!...is this an amateur show or what!!
Oh! and by the way, the Poisoned rat is on the money too!
Why do we waste our time with PPLs and CPLs on this forum??
Etops/Erops...call it what you like!...
It's a non event to professional pilots!!
Strewth!!...is this an amateur show or what!!
Oh! and by the way, the Poisoned rat is on the money too!
Why do we waste our time with PPLs and CPLs on this forum??
Last edited by amos2; 20th Jul 2006 at 10:14.
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Read Mr Joyce's words about his Jetstar pilots....."some very experienced people". Christ I would hope he had the words "they are all...."
Leave the flying to the Qantas Pilots.
VB pilot
Leave the flying to the Qantas Pilots.
VB pilot