Virgin Run by Bean-Counters and OHS
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Dutch Roll
There will always be somebody complaining that their rights are being denied/trampled on or whatever.
It does also sometimes appear as though some have (expect) more rights than anybody else
The Coaster
There will always be somebody complaining that their rights are being denied/trampled on or whatever.
It does also sometimes appear as though some have (expect) more rights than anybody else
The Coaster
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People who are disabled generally need little if any help. They are used to getting around on there own and can easily transfer from there own chair to an aircraft wheelchair and then to there seat. My greivence is with the families of elderly and infirm who drop Nan or Pop at the curb and expect the company to "care" for these people from the curb at one end to the curb at the other end. This goes above and beyond what any company other than a hospital or nursing home should be providing. This does happen every year come special holidays such as easter and christmas when ground staff are already pushed to the limit.
The other people who generally require assistance are of the large variety and will expect to be pushed around the airport like they are the King or Queen. God knows how these people get around at home, do they have someone push them around there house or to the shops, I think not.
Lastly a problem that has always been around is the theft of the aircraft wheelchair. These things disappear faster than they can be bought. I am not sure where they end up but over a period of time will cost any company tens of thousands of dollars.
Just a few reasons why staff would be pushing the company into this via by submitting the appropriate workcover/safety/hazard event report which requires any company these days to do something before an injury occurs.
The other people who generally require assistance are of the large variety and will expect to be pushed around the airport like they are the King or Queen. God knows how these people get around at home, do they have someone push them around there house or to the shops, I think not.
Lastly a problem that has always been around is the theft of the aircraft wheelchair. These things disappear faster than they can be bought. I am not sure where they end up but over a period of time will cost any company tens of thousands of dollars.
Just a few reasons why staff would be pushing the company into this via by submitting the appropriate workcover/safety/hazard event report which requires any company these days to do something before an injury occurs.
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Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle
Try sending an unaccompanied minor on Jetstar. 
I'd say that Jetstar did not say that the child could not travel.
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That's true Sunshine Coaster, but I can't see that your latter point (that some 'expect' more rights than anybody else) is relevant to this case at all.
A non-wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
A wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
Same right. Different ways/means of achieving it. One requires slightly more effort to be expended on the company's part. Not really all that hard, given most organizations have been doing it for a long time.
Everyone, you're entitled to your opinions, but any arguments I've seen so far on this topic suggesting that DJ are doing the right thing or that disabled people are somehow expecting greater privileges than anyone else, are weak to non-existent.
A non-wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
A wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
Same right. Different ways/means of achieving it. One requires slightly more effort to be expended on the company's part. Not really all that hard, given most organizations have been doing it for a long time.
Everyone, you're entitled to your opinions, but any arguments I've seen so far on this topic suggesting that DJ are doing the right thing or that disabled people are somehow expecting greater privileges than anyone else, are weak to non-existent.
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Dutchy..........
Just an observation and certainly not a judgement of the desirability/correctness/validity or otherwise of any of those observations.
The Coaster
Everyone, you're entitled to your opinions, but any arguments I've seen so far on this topic suggesting that DJ are doing the right thing or that disabled people are somehow expecting greater privileges than anyone else, are weak to non-existent.
The Coaster
Virgin backs down on wheelchair policy
From ABC
Virgin backs down on wheelchair policy
The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) says it is pleased that Virgin Blue has backed down on a policy change affecting disabled passengers.
The airline says wheelchair passengers will no longer have to travel with a carer at their own expense.
The commissioner responsible for disability discrimination, Graeme Innes, says the commission will continue working for the rights of disabled air travellers.
"Virgin's decision to change their policy is a good first step," he said.
"There are a range of issues impacting on passengers with disabilities in the airline industry and we've sought meetings with the Department of Transport and the airlines and disability groups to address those issues."
Paralympian Paul Nunnari raised concerns about the policy change when he was told by Virgin Blue staff that in future he would need to be accompanied by a carer at his own expense.
Nunnari says it is a positive outcome for disabled people.
"I don't want to stereotype but a lot of people with disabilities don't earn a lot of money, so to come up with funds for another ticket for a carer just wasn't practical," he said.
"And the other side of that, I mean as a service as you would expect with any kind of service, it's like when you invite someone over for dinner, you accommodate them and as an airline I would expect they would accommodate all their passengers."
Virgin backs down on wheelchair policy
The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC) says it is pleased that Virgin Blue has backed down on a policy change affecting disabled passengers.
The airline says wheelchair passengers will no longer have to travel with a carer at their own expense.
The commissioner responsible for disability discrimination, Graeme Innes, says the commission will continue working for the rights of disabled air travellers.
"Virgin's decision to change their policy is a good first step," he said.
"There are a range of issues impacting on passengers with disabilities in the airline industry and we've sought meetings with the Department of Transport and the airlines and disability groups to address those issues."
Paralympian Paul Nunnari raised concerns about the policy change when he was told by Virgin Blue staff that in future he would need to be accompanied by a carer at his own expense.
Nunnari says it is a positive outcome for disabled people.
"I don't want to stereotype but a lot of people with disabilities don't earn a lot of money, so to come up with funds for another ticket for a carer just wasn't practical," he said.
"And the other side of that, I mean as a service as you would expect with any kind of service, it's like when you invite someone over for dinner, you accommodate them and as an airline I would expect they would accommodate all their passengers."
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Below I have "para-phrased" the information provided to us at work in regards to these new procedures.
If a 'disabled' passenger is able to complete the all of the following tasks without assistance they do not require a carer in flight..
- are able to reach up, pull down and don an oxygen mask, including manipulating the elastic strap, without assistance
- reach for and don a lifejacket, including fastening the strap around their waist without assistance
- fasten and unfasten their seatbelt without assistance
- understand and follow crew instructions
- self administer any medication
- assist in their own evacuation (read assist in evacuation, not evacuate themselves without assistance)
When you think about it this makes sense- eg if you are unable to don your own O2 mask you cannot expect a cabin crew member to take off their own mask, make their way up the cabin to you, pop yours on and then find one for themselves. Or make their way to you in turbulence to help you do up your seatbelt.
The need for a "carer" at departure and arrival is mainly an OHS issue. As a crew member who has taken time off on two occasions already this year for back issues I am totally in favour of this. I have on occasion seen the need for two ground crew members to push the one wheelchair up the bridge and still struggle with the weight. Can you really blame VB for wanting to protect its staff (and probably cut down on is workers comp. costs at the same time).
I agree that this new policy has not been delivered to the travelling public in the best way, it’s the training of the front-line crew to deliver the message that is the real issue here.
If a 'disabled' passenger is able to complete the all of the following tasks without assistance they do not require a carer in flight..
- are able to reach up, pull down and don an oxygen mask, including manipulating the elastic strap, without assistance
- reach for and don a lifejacket, including fastening the strap around their waist without assistance
- fasten and unfasten their seatbelt without assistance
- understand and follow crew instructions
- self administer any medication
- assist in their own evacuation (read assist in evacuation, not evacuate themselves without assistance)
When you think about it this makes sense- eg if you are unable to don your own O2 mask you cannot expect a cabin crew member to take off their own mask, make their way up the cabin to you, pop yours on and then find one for themselves. Or make their way to you in turbulence to help you do up your seatbelt.
The need for a "carer" at departure and arrival is mainly an OHS issue. As a crew member who has taken time off on two occasions already this year for back issues I am totally in favour of this. I have on occasion seen the need for two ground crew members to push the one wheelchair up the bridge and still struggle with the weight. Can you really blame VB for wanting to protect its staff (and probably cut down on is workers comp. costs at the same time).
I agree that this new policy has not been delivered to the travelling public in the best way, it’s the training of the front-line crew to deliver the message that is the real issue here.
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Jeepers! Let's go one more time. Airlines have been providing assisted service for wheelchair & other disabled passengers since you had to catch a bloody pterodactyl to get from Laurentia to Gondwanaland!
OK, maybe not a pterodactyl. But what has changed to cause DJ to instigate 'apparent' restrictions over and above what everybody else does?
See my post No 1. It's cost-cutting. DJ are trying to avoid having to provide assistance (ie, extra ground staff etc) upon departure and arrival. Throw in a requirement to buy an extra ticket here & there and hey presto! A bit of money is clawed back to offset those darned fuel costs. That seems abundantly clear from the media statements made so far. OH&S is a convenient fall-guy (actually, probably more correctly, a variation on a straw-man argument. The wheelchair pax are the fall-guys).
OK, maybe not a pterodactyl. But what has changed to cause DJ to instigate 'apparent' restrictions over and above what everybody else does?
See my post No 1. It's cost-cutting. DJ are trying to avoid having to provide assistance (ie, extra ground staff etc) upon departure and arrival. Throw in a requirement to buy an extra ticket here & there and hey presto! A bit of money is clawed back to offset those darned fuel costs. That seems abundantly clear from the media statements made so far. OH&S is a convenient fall-guy (actually, probably more correctly, a variation on a straw-man argument. The wheelchair pax are the fall-guys).
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Originally Posted by DutchRoll
But what has changed to cause DJ to instigate 'apparent' restrictions over and above what everybody else does?
Originally Posted by DutchRoll
People who are disabled generally need little if any help. They are used to getting around on there own and can easily transfer from there own chair to an aircraft wheelchair and then to there seat. My greivence is with the families of elderly and infirm who drop Nan or Pop at the curb and expect the company to "care" for these people from the curb at one end to the curb at the other end. This goes above and beyond what any company other than a hospital or nursing home should be providing. This does happen every year come special holidays such as easter and christmas when ground staff are already pushed to the limit.
The other people who generally require assistance are of the large variety and will expect to be pushed around the airport like they are the King or Queen. God knows how these people get around at home, do they have someone push them around there house or to the shops, I think not.
The other people who generally require assistance are of the large variety and will expect to be pushed around the airport like they are the King or Queen. God knows how these people get around at home, do they have someone push them around there house or to the shops, I think not.
The "Carer" (on board the aircraft) part of the policy is something that will rarely come into play as people who are cannot reach up for an oxygen mask, reach down for a life jacket, fasten their own seatbelts or self-medicate will normally travel with a career. The "Assitance Person" (getting to and from the gate) part of the policy is logical, necessary for OH&S and completely non-discriminatory.
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!
Actually, when you compare VB with Qantas, it does seem like a cost cutting measure, and judging from the posts on here, they are cutting costs in OH&S for their staff too!
As a QF crew member, I regulary move disabled 'guests' around the cabin, onto and off aircraft, to and fro the loo, from aisle chair to wheelchair etc
If you have injured yourself doing these things, then your company is not providing you the correct training and/or equipment. There is no OH&S issue, if people are properly trained and have the right equipment.
On QF aircraft we have no less than 5 pieces of equipment for moving/ assisting passengers with disabilities/ unconcious passengers etc. We do a full day training course based soley on using this equipment. Ground staff do the same. Ground staff have the added advantage of having lifting machines as well.
As someone who has worked in the care sector in the past, I can assure you that pushing someone who weighs 120kg in a wheelchair should not cause injury, unless the equipment is inferior (read cheap) and the correct training hasn't been done.
Reading this, it does seem VB are more interested in the time it takes to turn around the aircraft, and avoiding the costs of providing the required equipment and staff training.
Oh, and what happens if someone becomes unable to don their own O2 mask during flight (ie unconscious) are you gonna kick them off the plane? Or just let them die (cos you could never expect a cabin crew member to assist someone with putting on an O2 mask or a seat belt
)
And who is to decide whether someone needs a wheelchair or not? There are plenty of people who can move around unassisted on a plane, but couldnt walk the incline of an aerobridge, why should it matter whether they actually need a wheelchair or not? If they believe they need one then one should be provided.
The point maybe moot now though, cos with this publicity, I doubt anyone with so much as a hearing aid would consider flying with them
As a QF crew member, I regulary move disabled 'guests' around the cabin, onto and off aircraft, to and fro the loo, from aisle chair to wheelchair etc
If you have injured yourself doing these things, then your company is not providing you the correct training and/or equipment. There is no OH&S issue, if people are properly trained and have the right equipment.
On QF aircraft we have no less than 5 pieces of equipment for moving/ assisting passengers with disabilities/ unconcious passengers etc. We do a full day training course based soley on using this equipment. Ground staff do the same. Ground staff have the added advantage of having lifting machines as well.
As someone who has worked in the care sector in the past, I can assure you that pushing someone who weighs 120kg in a wheelchair should not cause injury, unless the equipment is inferior (read cheap) and the correct training hasn't been done.
Reading this, it does seem VB are more interested in the time it takes to turn around the aircraft, and avoiding the costs of providing the required equipment and staff training.
Oh, and what happens if someone becomes unable to don their own O2 mask during flight (ie unconscious) are you gonna kick them off the plane? Or just let them die (cos you could never expect a cabin crew member to assist someone with putting on an O2 mask or a seat belt
)And who is to decide whether someone needs a wheelchair or not? There are plenty of people who can move around unassisted on a plane, but couldnt walk the incline of an aerobridge, why should it matter whether they actually need a wheelchair or not? If they believe they need one then one should be provided.
The point maybe moot now though, cos with this publicity, I doubt anyone with so much as a hearing aid would consider flying with them
Last edited by cart_elevator; 1st Jun 2006 at 18:50.
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No airline is saying that disabled passengers/prisoners/children of a certain age cannot travel... they are just saying that if a passenger needs any assistance during/embarking/disembarking a flight a carer/guardian is needed.
Did Jetstar state that the child could not travel?...
Jetstar refused the child to travel unaccompanied, unlike the other two airlines. Therefore, they are the only airline in Australia that require a carer/guardian for children of a certain age.
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depends on the age of the child bullwinkle
with Qantas, any child under the age of 5 must be accompanied by an adult or a Qantas escort [paid for]. 4 for domestic services.
So, no, jetstar isnt the only airline that would require a carer/guardian for children of a certain age !
Was also the same for AN
"Wot-evaa"
with Qantas, any child under the age of 5 must be accompanied by an adult or a Qantas escort [paid for]. 4 for domestic services.
So, no, jetstar isnt the only airline that would require a carer/guardian for children of a certain age !
Was also the same for AN
"Wot-evaa"
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Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle
Unaccompanied, yes!
Jetstar refused the child to travel unaccompanied, unlike the other two airlines. Therefore, they are the only airline in Australia that require a carer/guardian for children of a certain age.
Jetstar refused the child to travel unaccompanied, unlike the other two airlines. Therefore, they are the only airline in Australia that require a carer/guardian for children of a certain age.
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Originally Posted by DutchRoll
That's true Sunshine Coaster, but I can't see that your latter point (that some 'expect' more rights than anybody else) is relevant to this case at all.
A non-wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
A wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
Same right.
A non-wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
A wheelchair bound person expects to be able to have a seat in an aeroplane.
Same right.
"Rights" have to be given/granted by someone or organisation.
No one has the "right" to travel on an aircraft without the permission of the operator of the flight. You are granted permission to travel on an aircraft if the operator gives you some sort of pass. If the operator chooses to to attach conditions to that travel, such as paying money or not being drunk etc., so be it. I don't think airlines are common carriers yet.
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Jetstar obviously did NOT say that the child could not travel.
Jetstar said he could not travel!
He was subsequently re-booked with Virgin Blue, who said he could.
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Re: Jetstar's unaccompanied child issue it's state on their website (see below). To summarise if the child is not yet in secondary school (12 y.o for arguments sake) Jetstar will not accept them unaccompanied.
Virign will take unaccompanied children and cabin crew will supervise between the age of 5-11. 12 y.o is considered adult and they can travel unsupervised.
Re: Virgin's wheelchair/disabled policy, it seems Jetstar have a policy very similar policy without the media hoo-ha....
Children Requiring Supervision
Jetstar generally requires that passengers are able to travel independently. We do not have the systems, staff or facilities required to assume responsibility for assistance and supervision of passengers. Children requiring supervision will not be regarded as able to travel independently on the basis that they may cause a disruption or endanger themselves or others if travelling unaccompanied. As a guide, children who are not yet attending secondary school will be regarded as unable to travel independently and will not be eligible to travel unless they are accompanied by an appropriate Accompanying Passenger*. Jetstar may require proof that children are currently attending secondary school at check-in. Despite these guidelines, if a child is attending secondary school but their parent or guardian considers that the child is not sufficiently independent to travel unaccompanied using the service provided by Jetstar, they must notify Jetstar. Jetstar is not able to carry such passengers unaccompanied.
Limited Special Assistance
Generally Jetstar will not allow a person to travel without an Accompanying Passenger* unless the person can travel independently, meaning that they can travel safely without assistance, supervision or both. There are limited exceptions to this and you should contact the Jetstar Call Centre for further information. We do not have the systems, staff or facilities required to assume responsibility for such assistance and supervision. However, we do provide limited special assistance services to accommodate customers who need to travel with a guide dog, hearing or mobility dog, customers who require a wheelchair and customers who require two seats for themselves. If you need to use these special services you must contact Jetstar Reservations in Australia on 131 538 (+61-3-8341-4901) and in New Zealand on 0800 800 995. Those who have made special arrangements through Jetstar Reservations will be boarded first.
Virign will take unaccompanied children and cabin crew will supervise between the age of 5-11. 12 y.o is considered adult and they can travel unsupervised.
Re: Virgin's wheelchair/disabled policy, it seems Jetstar have a policy very similar policy without the media hoo-ha....
Children Requiring Supervision
Jetstar generally requires that passengers are able to travel independently. We do not have the systems, staff or facilities required to assume responsibility for assistance and supervision of passengers. Children requiring supervision will not be regarded as able to travel independently on the basis that they may cause a disruption or endanger themselves or others if travelling unaccompanied. As a guide, children who are not yet attending secondary school will be regarded as unable to travel independently and will not be eligible to travel unless they are accompanied by an appropriate Accompanying Passenger*. Jetstar may require proof that children are currently attending secondary school at check-in. Despite these guidelines, if a child is attending secondary school but their parent or guardian considers that the child is not sufficiently independent to travel unaccompanied using the service provided by Jetstar, they must notify Jetstar. Jetstar is not able to carry such passengers unaccompanied.
Limited Special Assistance
Generally Jetstar will not allow a person to travel without an Accompanying Passenger* unless the person can travel independently, meaning that they can travel safely without assistance, supervision or both. There are limited exceptions to this and you should contact the Jetstar Call Centre for further information. We do not have the systems, staff or facilities required to assume responsibility for such assistance and supervision. However, we do provide limited special assistance services to accommodate customers who need to travel with a guide dog, hearing or mobility dog, customers who require a wheelchair and customers who require two seats for themselves. If you need to use these special services you must contact Jetstar Reservations in Australia on 131 538 (+61-3-8341-4901) and in New Zealand on 0800 800 995. Those who have made special arrangements through Jetstar Reservations will be boarded first.
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yep, gotta agree with cart elevator QF are supplying plenty of training for staff (espec ground staff), in the way to use all the different lifting devices. With the Eagle-lifter once all ground staff have been trained we will not lift anybody thats what the Eagle is for, one model for all jets and a yet to be approved model for the Dash's with lifters also to located close to checkin and in departure areas
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Dont you hate it when the corporate greedy world consider your 12yr old to be an adult. If they are an adult, then they should be able to buy a beer from your stinking organisation. If they cant, then they are not a f#@%kn adult!
Rant over, I will see myself out....
Rant over, I will see myself out....
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Oh, and what happens if someone becomes unable to don their own O2 mask during flight (ie unconscious) are you gonna kick them off the plane? Or just let them die (cos you could never expect a cabin crew member to assist someone with putting on an O2 mask or a seat belt )
We all know that a couple of minutes will pass from the time the masks drop until the time it is safe for us to breathe again without the need for supplementary oxygen. And in this time irreversible damage can occur to the human brain if it receives no oxygen. Imagine that you have a loved one travelling onboard who is unable to don an O2 mask without assistance, I’m guessing they would not be in too good shape by the time a cabin crew member gets to them. And to think this could have been easily avoided by having someone travel with them.
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Some facts about altitude, oxygen and decompression. The amount of oxygen saturation in the typical person's bloodstream at various altitudes is:
Sea Level - 97%
10000 ft - 90%
20000 ft - 70%
30000 ft - 20%
40000 ft - 5%
It is not correct to say that when an aircraft suffers a decompression that you are suddenly not breathing any oxygen. You are breathing oxygen and it is getting into your blood stream - albeit at a reduced level. Breathing oxygen from the drop down masks simply increases your oxygen blood saturation levels to a more 'normal' level.
Now what happens in a decompression? Lets examine a worst case scenario. The aircraft is at 35 000 ft and loses a cargo door. The cabin altitude will increase rapidly from about 8000ft, but it will not instantly go to 35000ft. Thats because whilst it's a big hole, it's still just a hole and cabin air will take time to escape. At the same time the aircraft's pressurisation system will still be pumping air into the cabin partially offsetting the air escaping. Meanwhile our steely eyed avaitors up front will put the aircraft into a rapid descent. About 30 seconds later the 'climbing' cabin altitude will meet the descending aircraft, lets say 30000ft, and the cabin altitude will then decrease with the aircraft down to 10000ft. All this will take about two minutes.
So what downs this mean for passengers who can't put on an oxygen mask.
Their blood oxygen saturation levels will be around 92% in the cruise, will decrease to around 20% in about 30 seconds during the decompression and then increase to 90% over the next 90 seconds during the rapid descent.
It is unlikely that any permanent damage will occur in this situation - although during the event a person might become unconscious but would recover quickly when the aircraft descended to lower altitudes.
Sea Level - 97%
10000 ft - 90%
20000 ft - 70%
30000 ft - 20%
40000 ft - 5%
It is not correct to say that when an aircraft suffers a decompression that you are suddenly not breathing any oxygen. You are breathing oxygen and it is getting into your blood stream - albeit at a reduced level. Breathing oxygen from the drop down masks simply increases your oxygen blood saturation levels to a more 'normal' level.
Now what happens in a decompression? Lets examine a worst case scenario. The aircraft is at 35 000 ft and loses a cargo door. The cabin altitude will increase rapidly from about 8000ft, but it will not instantly go to 35000ft. Thats because whilst it's a big hole, it's still just a hole and cabin air will take time to escape. At the same time the aircraft's pressurisation system will still be pumping air into the cabin partially offsetting the air escaping. Meanwhile our steely eyed avaitors up front will put the aircraft into a rapid descent. About 30 seconds later the 'climbing' cabin altitude will meet the descending aircraft, lets say 30000ft, and the cabin altitude will then decrease with the aircraft down to 10000ft. All this will take about two minutes.
So what downs this mean for passengers who can't put on an oxygen mask.
Their blood oxygen saturation levels will be around 92% in the cruise, will decrease to around 20% in about 30 seconds during the decompression and then increase to 90% over the next 90 seconds during the rapid descent.
It is unlikely that any permanent damage will occur in this situation - although during the event a person might become unconscious but would recover quickly when the aircraft descended to lower altitudes.