Qantas Overseas Pilots jobs move Attacked
Murgatroid
J* pilots will do what they are told- without much bullying from management. J* pilots are being used to bust QF pilots and expat pilots will eventually be used to bust seniority and any significant inflationary wage pressures.
Professional mobility will be the catch cry amongst pilots in this new and emerging playing field. Experienced and type endorsed captains will dance between airline jobs as suits. Come home to Australia for a few years, go abroad for a few years etc etc.
No such professional mobility is available to QF F/O's.
J* pilots will do what they are told- without much bullying from management. J* pilots are being used to bust QF pilots and expat pilots will eventually be used to bust seniority and any significant inflationary wage pressures.
Professional mobility will be the catch cry amongst pilots in this new and emerging playing field. Experienced and type endorsed captains will dance between airline jobs as suits. Come home to Australia for a few years, go abroad for a few years etc etc.
No such professional mobility is available to QF F/O's.
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Jetsbest,
Very well said....
I have read about a number of famously successful generals 'dividing and conquering' enemy armies. However, I have never heard of a general who has achieved success by 'dividing and conquering' his own.
This approach is destined to fail... Some may see it as good business acumen....they need to look beyond the numerals and figures indicative of the short term report card. Valued and engaged staff members have been and always will be the key to success in such a competitive service industry.
The Board of Directors and shareholders must wake up and quickly, before the company and brand are damaged beyond repair.
Very well said....
I have read about a number of famously successful generals 'dividing and conquering' enemy armies. However, I have never heard of a general who has achieved success by 'dividing and conquering' his own.
This approach is destined to fail... Some may see it as good business acumen....they need to look beyond the numerals and figures indicative of the short term report card. Valued and engaged staff members have been and always will be the key to success in such a competitive service industry.
The Board of Directors and shareholders must wake up and quickly, before the company and brand are damaged beyond repair.
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OBNO
You are quite correct. It just so happens that at the moment they will get cheap pilots who compare very favourable in the "qualified, experienced, safest" categories with those in Australia that at present cost a lot more.
Having said that, I would wager that there is probably no one in Qantas who can deliver the amount of experience on the 330 that O/S based Australians can.
Having said that, I would wager that there is probably no one in Qantas who can deliver the amount of experience on the 330 that O/S based Australians can.
Vorsicht,
Latest news is very few, ie not enough, O/S Australian A330 crews are interested. A few desperate Emirates drivers and that’s it. 10 year Dragon A330 Captain was told he would have to come as an F/O, pay for J* endorsement, 3 years cr@p pay then pay for 787 F/O endorsement if he was kept on. Believe he hung up before more of the deal was explained.
From what is being offered you could only say the whole O/S vacancy advertising exercise was a fishing expedition with no bait. The sole purpose was to further put the wind up J* & Qantas pilots so as to lower their expectations.
This could have indeed been successful with the latest rumour doing the office of some QF A330 F/O’s putting an offer to QF/J* to crew the aircraft as Captains on a deal not dissimilar, but slightly less, than AO conditions. J* pilots would take the right seat to build experience for the 787 operations when these pilots would return to mainline. Apparently, given the time limits now on J*management, this offer is a front runner and perhaps what the mechanics of these machinations have had planned all along.
All will be clear in a few months, may the shaftings continue.
Latest news is very few, ie not enough, O/S Australian A330 crews are interested. A few desperate Emirates drivers and that’s it. 10 year Dragon A330 Captain was told he would have to come as an F/O, pay for J* endorsement, 3 years cr@p pay then pay for 787 F/O endorsement if he was kept on. Believe he hung up before more of the deal was explained.
From what is being offered you could only say the whole O/S vacancy advertising exercise was a fishing expedition with no bait. The sole purpose was to further put the wind up J* & Qantas pilots so as to lower their expectations.
This could have indeed been successful with the latest rumour doing the office of some QF A330 F/O’s putting an offer to QF/J* to crew the aircraft as Captains on a deal not dissimilar, but slightly less, than AO conditions. J* pilots would take the right seat to build experience for the 787 operations when these pilots would return to mainline. Apparently, given the time limits now on J*management, this offer is a front runner and perhaps what the mechanics of these machinations have had planned all along.
All will be clear in a few months, may the shaftings continue.
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MS
I see your point. There is no doubt the O/S adds were a fishing expo.
The management are quite rightly checking all over the world to try and find what the lowest possible package is that they can offer and still crew the aircraft. Obviously if they had a deluge of people taking up the offer, it would suggest the package was too high.
If i were them, i would start way too low and move up until i get the guys i need, that way you are sure you are paying the min required.
I still think though that all they would have to do is take away the cr@p about going back to F/O in two or three years and they would probably get the guys they need.
J* seem to be trying a new angle. i.e trying to get DEC but without unduly influencing the seniority system. In my opinion proper seniority systems are pretty much dead in the water, and rightly so. They are probably the single biggest hurdle to pilot conditions. If we were all free to chase the best conditions without being penalised by seniority, i believe that we would be able to force the conditions to improve. Simply because there would be no penalty to switch jobs as there is now. Sure seniority is good for the senior guys in majors provided you are near the top. Ask a guy who is mid on the list at a US major. He has probably been downgraded to F/O and can't leave because he risks going to the bottom of someone elses list. He can however come to the ME as a DEC. Which do you think is better?
The management are quite rightly checking all over the world to try and find what the lowest possible package is that they can offer and still crew the aircraft. Obviously if they had a deluge of people taking up the offer, it would suggest the package was too high.
If i were them, i would start way too low and move up until i get the guys i need, that way you are sure you are paying the min required.
I still think though that all they would have to do is take away the cr@p about going back to F/O in two or three years and they would probably get the guys they need.
J* seem to be trying a new angle. i.e trying to get DEC but without unduly influencing the seniority system. In my opinion proper seniority systems are pretty much dead in the water, and rightly so. They are probably the single biggest hurdle to pilot conditions. If we were all free to chase the best conditions without being penalised by seniority, i believe that we would be able to force the conditions to improve. Simply because there would be no penalty to switch jobs as there is now. Sure seniority is good for the senior guys in majors provided you are near the top. Ask a guy who is mid on the list at a US major. He has probably been downgraded to F/O and can't leave because he risks going to the bottom of someone elses list. He can however come to the ME as a DEC. Which do you think is better?
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MS Your Dragon A330 mate must have misunderstood or making something up. He comes already A330 endorsed therefore no endorsement cost. Transfer to B787 at Company expense (says so in agreement) The only impediment is his assessment of pay and conditions and whether or not likely to retain Command after 3 years.
The ideal candidate is somebody already endorsed A320 or 330 approaching retirement who would like to work out of Oz for the last couple of years and fade gracefully away.
I suspect many of the large number of applicants are not aware of the 3 year command deal.
The ideal candidate is somebody already endorsed A320 or 330 approaching retirement who would like to work out of Oz for the last couple of years and fade gracefully away.
I suspect many of the large number of applicants are not aware of the 3 year command deal.
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I'm in the LHS of the 330 for EK. I think of nothing more than coming back to OZ, but under the J* terms with the chance of a pay cut and back to the RHS.....there is no way. Sure, My mates talk about it over a beer, but I don't know more than a half dozen who are seriously thinking about it and some of them are a few years from retirement anyway. I wouldn't panic about the masses returning from here. (Unless I don't have many mates...)
Max AoB,
I don't believe that was ever their true interest, yes they would have been happy to get 40 A330 Captains on a dirt cheap deal but I know their(J*/QF management) not so naive. Those applying have been wasting their time as this was primarily an exercise in conditioning the local workforce.
Fistfokker, you sound like you work for those Industry Fokkers. I was just recounting what I was told and NO I don't believe my mate was misunderstood. Perhaps he sounded too keen so they threw in the bit about comming on as an F/O and having to buy an endorsement just to discourage him. As for what's said in some agreement with the JPC, people without honour shouldn't expect much in return, any such agreement is not worth the paper it's written on until after it's been honoured.
This is a "deal" only self serving delusional JPC members understand, for the rest, 3 years would be the time it takes to get enough command hours to get a real job on real conditions with a decent employer.
OBNO
What they don't seem to realize is that cheapest should include a pilots total operation not just his wage. The cost of fuel is very topical at the moment so consider this;
The average QF pilot operates 800 hrs a year at around 5000kg/hr = 4000000kg
4000000kg/0.78 = 5128205 ltrs
5128205 ltrs * AUD$0.68 per ltr = $3487179 Say 3.5 Million AUD
Operating technique could vary this amount by several percent but even at just one percent it adds up to 35K dollars per annum.
Alternately, consider 800 hrs per annum with an average sector of 5 hours = 160 sectors. A measly 200 kg per sector saving/loss would equal 32000 kg (41025 ltrs) of fuel which is worth about 28K per annun.
Most sectors we currently fly on the A330 we are able to burn 1000 to 1500kg less than flight plan, 140K-210K saving per annum.
Lots of numbers but that's the name of the game, it's not just what you pay a pilot which makes him cheap.
Vorsicht,
You wouldn’t go to the cheapest dentist or car mechanic because they often cost a lot more and cause more pain, same deal with pilots.
As for seniority I mostly agree, it is a big hurdle to pilot conditions. Whilst management would like the benefits of hiring & firing at will, they also know seniority is a major draw card in retaining qualified pilots in which they have invested millions of dollars. The prospect of working for an operation without seniority would be akin to working in a gay whore house, you’d have to take it up the Kyber to get on, I think many of us have seen such situations in GA, not fun.
I'll hold my bet on;
Anyone raise?
I wouldn't panic about the masses returning from here.
Fistfokker, you sound like you work for those Industry Fokkers. I was just recounting what I was told and NO I don't believe my mate was misunderstood. Perhaps he sounded too keen so they threw in the bit about comming on as an F/O and having to buy an endorsement just to discourage him. As for what's said in some agreement with the JPC, people without honour shouldn't expect much in return, any such agreement is not worth the paper it's written on until after it's been honoured.
I suspect many of the large number of applicants are not aware of the 3 year command deal.
OBNO
They are after only one thing - THE CHEAPEST!
The average QF pilot operates 800 hrs a year at around 5000kg/hr = 4000000kg
4000000kg/0.78 = 5128205 ltrs
5128205 ltrs * AUD$0.68 per ltr = $3487179 Say 3.5 Million AUD
Operating technique could vary this amount by several percent but even at just one percent it adds up to 35K dollars per annum.
Alternately, consider 800 hrs per annum with an average sector of 5 hours = 160 sectors. A measly 200 kg per sector saving/loss would equal 32000 kg (41025 ltrs) of fuel which is worth about 28K per annun.
Most sectors we currently fly on the A330 we are able to burn 1000 to 1500kg less than flight plan, 140K-210K saving per annum.
Lots of numbers but that's the name of the game, it's not just what you pay a pilot which makes him cheap.
Vorsicht,
You wouldn’t go to the cheapest dentist or car mechanic because they often cost a lot more and cause more pain, same deal with pilots.
As for seniority I mostly agree, it is a big hurdle to pilot conditions. Whilst management would like the benefits of hiring & firing at will, they also know seniority is a major draw card in retaining qualified pilots in which they have invested millions of dollars. The prospect of working for an operation without seniority would be akin to working in a gay whore house, you’d have to take it up the Kyber to get on, I think many of us have seen such situations in GA, not fun.
I'll hold my bet on;
QF A330 F/O’s putting an offer to QF/J* to crew the aircraft as Captains on a deal not dissimilar, but slightly less, than AO conditions
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This is what they are hoping for to start the house of cards falling.
QF F/os to break rank and take a command for less than they are earning at present.That will sound the death nell for the QF body.
As for foreign (read: ex An /TAA pilots, remember them?,who have been working overseas ) , there are at least 2 already there and more comming.
Hurry, hurry QF F/Os, better get an offer on the table but, quick.
I think that getting over qualifications and experience hurdle will probably be a major problem for QF F/Os.
As for the "operating techniques vs fuel" saving mumbo jumbo, are you suggesting that QF pilots have learned so much about operting 330s in the short time they have had them that they know more than other operators?
All operators that I know just seem to follow the book.Airbus know best in all cases. The fuel saving on sectors is more to do with the variation of your flight planning system ( it's limitations 0compared with actual burns and tracking than operating techniques.
QF F/os to break rank and take a command for less than they are earning at present.That will sound the death nell for the QF body.
As for foreign (read: ex An /TAA pilots, remember them?,who have been working overseas ) , there are at least 2 already there and more comming.
Hurry, hurry QF F/Os, better get an offer on the table but, quick.
I think that getting over qualifications and experience hurdle will probably be a major problem for QF F/Os.
As for the "operating techniques vs fuel" saving mumbo jumbo, are you suggesting that QF pilots have learned so much about operting 330s in the short time they have had them that they know more than other operators?
All operators that I know just seem to follow the book.Airbus know best in all cases. The fuel saving on sectors is more to do with the variation of your flight planning system ( it's limitations 0compared with actual burns and tracking than operating techniques.
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Quote from Murgatroid
"So all the Airbus command time in the world isn't going to matter a single bit when you get booted back to F/O status. Think you'll get a 787 command, think again, there is 150-200 F/O's waiting ahead of you."
Murgatroid, you must be the most naive bloke about. JQ does not and will not respect seniority. The JPC gave seniority away in JQ a long time ago. AJ will move all his pilots to AWA's to avoid it. And, he will get away with it. Why? cause seniority is illegal. AND he has promised GD that he will deliver AWA first in the QF group. Don't believe me? ask the Head of People and see if he gives you a straight answer. He certainly couldn't when I asked him. In fact his avoidance of the question would have done Downer proud!
"So all the Airbus command time in the world isn't going to matter a single bit when you get booted back to F/O status. Think you'll get a 787 command, think again, there is 150-200 F/O's waiting ahead of you."
Murgatroid, you must be the most naive bloke about. JQ does not and will not respect seniority. The JPC gave seniority away in JQ a long time ago. AJ will move all his pilots to AWA's to avoid it. And, he will get away with it. Why? cause seniority is illegal. AND he has promised GD that he will deliver AWA first in the QF group. Don't believe me? ask the Head of People and see if he gives you a straight answer. He certainly couldn't when I asked him. In fact his avoidance of the question would have done Downer proud!
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Eagleman,
Think what you may about what will and will not happen in the future.
The simple fact is that if you join J* today as DEC, you join as an F/O and that "temporary command" clause is what you sign up to. If you don't believe me - phone them yourself.
You may be lucky in the future, you may not. But the real question is, do you give away your command somewhere else to take the current deal? Some will, some won't.
Also, an AWA to look forward to can make things a lot worse yourself - DEC or not, seniority or not. Some people better be careful what they wish for or what they sign up for!
Finally, AJ is starting to find out what the big wide world is all about when you're not under the super protective environment of big brother QF - ala J* Asia. J* Int will be not much different and is a big gamble. The board will only let either bleed so much then bye bye AJ, bye bye GD.
Think what you may about what will and will not happen in the future.
The simple fact is that if you join J* today as DEC, you join as an F/O and that "temporary command" clause is what you sign up to. If you don't believe me - phone them yourself.
You may be lucky in the future, you may not. But the real question is, do you give away your command somewhere else to take the current deal? Some will, some won't.
Also, an AWA to look forward to can make things a lot worse yourself - DEC or not, seniority or not. Some people better be careful what they wish for or what they sign up for!
Finally, AJ is starting to find out what the big wide world is all about when you're not under the super protective environment of big brother QF - ala J* Asia. J* Int will be not much different and is a big gamble. The board will only let either bleed so much then bye bye AJ, bye bye GD.
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Hey Mud Skipper,
.....and just where would that be, what do you have in mind?
I certainly hope your not suggesting Australian J*/QF pilots taking Direct Entry Commands over F/Os at other airlines who don't respect seniority.
for the rest, 3 years would be the time it takes to get enough command hours to get a real job on real conditions with a decent employer.
I certainly hope your not suggesting Australian J*/QF pilots taking Direct Entry Commands over F/Os at other airlines who don't respect seniority.
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A Mate has just shown me the allocations for the A330's for J* Int, ie the assignments from the A320 to Wide body.
Almost all vacancies have been filled from within. Won't be many outsiders in this first batch by the look of it.
So much for the hoards of expats.
Almost all vacancies have been filled from within. Won't be many outsiders in this first batch by the look of it.
So much for the hoards of expats.
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Most sectors we currently fly on the A330 we are able to burn 1000 to 1500kg less than flight plan, 140K-210K saving per annum.
We usually get within 250-350kg on our Boeing and Airbus fleets
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Murgatroid
The promise AJ made to all the JQ current F/O's was that they would have commands by the end of 2006.
This promise was based on current JQ pilots moving to the 330. So far the interest has been deafening in its absence. So DECs are introduced for the the start up - 2 years. Are you happy to wait another two years for a command on the promise of a bullying little irishman! Seriously, this guy has no respect for the pilot group. And that is not going to change.
All your current management pilots are DECs. Are they going to revert to F/O staus in four months time? No mate they wont. And will you get by-pass. No mate, they are mangagement pilots and by-pass doesn't apply to them.
As I said, I think you are a little naive. Having said that mate, I hope for the sake of a lot of bloody good lads, that I am proved wrong.
The promise AJ made to all the JQ current F/O's was that they would have commands by the end of 2006.
This promise was based on current JQ pilots moving to the 330. So far the interest has been deafening in its absence. So DECs are introduced for the the start up - 2 years. Are you happy to wait another two years for a command on the promise of a bullying little irishman! Seriously, this guy has no respect for the pilot group. And that is not going to change.
All your current management pilots are DECs. Are they going to revert to F/O staus in four months time? No mate they wont. And will you get by-pass. No mate, they are mangagement pilots and by-pass doesn't apply to them.
As I said, I think you are a little naive. Having said that mate, I hope for the sake of a lot of bloody good lads, that I am proved wrong.
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Hey Eagle man
On the QF cabin crew discussions you posted this comment.
You don't have to work in the industry you know!
well err, take your own advice!
Um ever heard of the word hypocrite!
On the QF cabin crew discussions you posted this comment.
You don't have to work in the industry you know!
well err, take your own advice!
Um ever heard of the word hypocrite!
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Give up Cart Exchange. There's nothing hypocritical about Eagleman's views. Don't you realise that it's much easier for meal chuckers to find jobs elsewhere than pilots? After all, unlike professional pilots, you don't outlay tens of thousands of dollars and years of your life training to get a job as a FA. Instead, you have a couple of inerviews, six weeks of brain dead training and you're away. Not that simple for your colleagues in the pointy end. Equally, not that simple for them to go elsewhere as it is for your lot.