Qantas Overseas Pilots jobs move Attacked
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Wimmera and others - I am sorry and apologise at the cheap shot I made at the AIPA bloke's name. Maybe I shouldn't post after a shot or two of white, but I still believe that pilots, and in particular Qantas pilots, do not enjoy a monopoly on the credit for a safe operation. I reiterate that this claim by AIPA does illlustrate just how poor is its grip on reality.
Borg - most of us could complete a law, or any other for that matter, degree were we to enjoy the down time of pilots. I'd like to see anyone complete a law degree in 4 years while holding a full-time day job and maintaining a semblance of family life. In fact, many of us do so at night time and on week-ends etc while holding full time jobs that carry much responsibility, stress etc etc. Unlike pilots, many people who work on the ground are never off the job but I don't think you would understand that concept as no one works as hard or put in the hours as you blokes do they?
Borg - most of us could complete a law, or any other for that matter, degree were we to enjoy the down time of pilots. I'd like to see anyone complete a law degree in 4 years while holding a full-time day job and maintaining a semblance of family life. In fact, many of us do so at night time and on week-ends etc while holding full time jobs that carry much responsibility, stress etc etc. Unlike pilots, many people who work on the ground are never off the job but I don't think you would understand that concept as no one works as hard or put in the hours as you blokes do they?
Grandpa Aerotart
For god's sake...QF are not trolling third world airlines for barely literate natives to come fly their aircraft for 10 cents on the dollar. They are merely hoping to attract highly experienced Australians back home to fly some of their aeroplanes. It saves on training costs...rather than promoting from within and then promoting others to fill those vacancies and then hiring newbies to replace those recently promoted they are trying to hire a group who have lots of relevant experience on the specific aeroplane type who can be checked to line in a few weeks at minimal cost...5 sims and 20 sectors.
The world has changed since beancounters started running it...we are dealing with people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing...it's in every level from Federal Govt on down, these are the people who ground Concorde. If they'd been running things 30 yrs earlier we wouldn't have had Concorde to begin with...I think it sucks but there you have it.
I agree with much of the anti QF rhetoric in relation to service standards etc but when your Captain Lunt starts scaremongering along the lines above it gets a little childish....you're exposing yourselves to ridicule by claiming QF is looking to 'outsource' pilots for Jetstar.
It very much remains to be seen whether they get enough experienced pilots who are prepared to chance being bounced back to the RHS in 2 yrs...the guys I speak to in the ME and Asia would not be prepared to take that chance on the packages being offered...but they will get a few....just remember the few they get will be a least as experienced as any QF pilot and have been made to jump through at least as many hoops as any QF pilot...and usually more. Remember that the average Ozzie captain coming home will have spent yrs flying with often very innexperienced FOs in very challenging parts of the world...often bordering on SP.
The world has changed since beancounters started running it...we are dealing with people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing...it's in every level from Federal Govt on down, these are the people who ground Concorde. If they'd been running things 30 yrs earlier we wouldn't have had Concorde to begin with...I think it sucks but there you have it.
I agree with much of the anti QF rhetoric in relation to service standards etc but when your Captain Lunt starts scaremongering along the lines above it gets a little childish....you're exposing yourselves to ridicule by claiming QF is looking to 'outsource' pilots for Jetstar.
It very much remains to be seen whether they get enough experienced pilots who are prepared to chance being bounced back to the RHS in 2 yrs...the guys I speak to in the ME and Asia would not be prepared to take that chance on the packages being offered...but they will get a few....just remember the few they get will be a least as experienced as any QF pilot and have been made to jump through at least as many hoops as any QF pilot...and usually more. Remember that the average Ozzie captain coming home will have spent yrs flying with often very innexperienced FOs in very challenging parts of the world...often bordering on SP.
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The only people who have made claims about QANTAS's safety appear to be those not in QANTAS....funny I havent seen any QANTAS pilots mention safety.....
I wonder what that means......raise your hand if you have some psychotic chip on your shoulder ........anyone anyone?
Bueller Bueller ??? ?
I wonder what that means......raise your hand if you have some psychotic chip on your shoulder ........anyone anyone?
Bueller Bueller ??? ?
A question. Is it a legal/legislative requirement for QANTAS Group pilots to be Australian citizens or is it just current QANTAS recruiting practice? I think AIPA was just trying to pin down QF management intentions in a public forum. Thay have succeeded, in that QF have confirmed Australian citizens only will be recruited.
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Equaliser,
I personally know of one QF mainline pilot who is not an Australian citizen and does not hold an Australian passport (although he has done in the past). I believe there are others. He was hired in the last couple of years whilst working for an overseas airline.
Different situation though as he joined at the bottom of the QF seniority list as is usual practice so noone really gets their g-bangers in a knot...
VI
I personally know of one QF mainline pilot who is not an Australian citizen and does not hold an Australian passport (although he has done in the past). I believe there are others. He was hired in the last couple of years whilst working for an overseas airline.
Different situation though as he joined at the bottom of the QF seniority list as is usual practice so noone really gets their g-bangers in a knot...
VI
Chimbu, I agree that Qantas would like to attract expatriates back for sound business reasons. However, whats to stop the Qantas beancounters from requesting lower and lower pilot pay until it is recruiting barely literate pilots from third world countries? I mean its going to do that with its maintenance isn't it? At least that is what is threatened.
Furthermore, Feynemans appendix to the Challenger report explains both the attractiveness of this approach to management as well as it's perils.
It's a bit like what happened to Ansett. The business was gutted of maintenance planning professionals and it took about five years, by my calculations, before the damage finally became apparent.
Furthermore, Feynemans appendix to the Challenger report explains both the attractiveness of this approach to management as well as it's perils.
It's a bit like what happened to Ansett. The business was gutted of maintenance planning professionals and it took about five years, by my calculations, before the damage finally became apparent.
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Sunfish what absolute rubbish regarding J* recruiting foreign pilots with broken english.There are many HIGHLY QUALIFIED AUSTRALIANS with a multitude of airbus experience and jet experience in my part of the world who are very interested in joining J* INTL.
To advertise in Asia and the Middle East was to directly target airlines such as EK,CX and KA where there are many AUSTRALIANS working for very reputable carriers in the region.
To tarnish the intent of the advertisement is laughable.
I would much rather have my family sit down the back of an airbus with a experienced airbus crew from this part of the region when shooting a ILS in Typhoon weather or dealing with poor ATC in south east asia.
The OVERWHELMING majority of second officers joining QF have minimal experience on a global scale and would barely qualify for a job in the darkest corners of the globe with a marginal contract company.
As to QF safety record, directly attributing this to the almighty skill and financial demands of the QF pilot group, i just fall of my chair laughing in how naive you all really are down there.
To advertise in Asia and the Middle East was to directly target airlines such as EK,CX and KA where there are many AUSTRALIANS working for very reputable carriers in the region.
To tarnish the intent of the advertisement is laughable.
I would much rather have my family sit down the back of an airbus with a experienced airbus crew from this part of the region when shooting a ILS in Typhoon weather or dealing with poor ATC in south east asia.
The OVERWHELMING majority of second officers joining QF have minimal experience on a global scale and would barely qualify for a job in the darkest corners of the globe with a marginal contract company.
As to QF safety record, directly attributing this to the almighty skill and financial demands of the QF pilot group, i just fall of my chair laughing in how naive you all really are down there.
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Originally Posted by Iakklat
As to QF safety record, directly attributing this to the almighty skill and financial demands of the QF pilot group, i just fall of my chair laughing in how naive you all really are down there.
Regardless of what you think about QF pilots, someone at QF, be it the pilots, engineers, Cabin Crew, or the training department - someone at the coal face is responsible for the fairly good record of safety.
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B A Lert, what I was saying was that there are many Qantas Second Officers with with more experience than some Qantas captains. A substantial amount have (pre Qantas) jet time including wide body command hours.
Iakklat,
So now pilots from your region are the only ones we should trust! I would love to know on what basis this assertion is made. I'll stick with the fact that major airlines worldwide value the skill and training of Australian pilots in general
As for QF experience levels another furphy. Most guys have substantial time before joining and with commands taking minimum 15 years have substantial time up at that point to. A lot more than a lot of my mates at EK and KA had when they got their commands!!!
So now pilots from your region are the only ones we should trust! I would love to know on what basis this assertion is made. I'll stick with the fact that major airlines worldwide value the skill and training of Australian pilots in general
As for QF experience levels another furphy. Most guys have substantial time before joining and with commands taking minimum 15 years have substantial time up at that point to. A lot more than a lot of my mates at EK and KA had when they got their commands!!!
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Equaliser you have to be kidding me right.
No there isnt a SUBSTANTIAL amount of second officers that have significant jet experience that have joined QANTAS and certainly EPIRB THE MAJORITY didnt have widebody experience let alone fly a commercial airline jet prior to joining QF. Again i am talking about a MAJORITY.
The exception to the jet experience is the ex Ansett guys who were unfortunate enough to score a job as a second officer.
I have never said that aircrew from my part of the region are the only ones we should trust ,when in fact , a vast majority of commanders in my part of the region are AUSTRALIANS and from other "respectable" aviation countries such as the UK and Canada.
The age versus experience level of guys overseas currently interested in a AIRBUS command with J* INTL far exceeds anything that QF mainline can offer from interested second officers and first officers, especially in terms of AIRBUS and experience in the south east asian region verbatim!!!
I am tired of hearing this propoganda dribble from the mainline pilot group that J* Intl will be recruiting non english speaking,marginal standard aircrew from third world airlines from around the world. Hardly the case given the overwhelming response to J* Intls recent advertisement for experienced A330 and A320 crews.
When running a business, like Mr Joyce, naturally you want to employ the most qualified people in the marketforce that are interested, and believe it or not, that is exactly what he is going to do!!
No there isnt a SUBSTANTIAL amount of second officers that have significant jet experience that have joined QANTAS and certainly EPIRB THE MAJORITY didnt have widebody experience let alone fly a commercial airline jet prior to joining QF. Again i am talking about a MAJORITY.
The exception to the jet experience is the ex Ansett guys who were unfortunate enough to score a job as a second officer.
I have never said that aircrew from my part of the region are the only ones we should trust ,when in fact , a vast majority of commanders in my part of the region are AUSTRALIANS and from other "respectable" aviation countries such as the UK and Canada.
The age versus experience level of guys overseas currently interested in a AIRBUS command with J* INTL far exceeds anything that QF mainline can offer from interested second officers and first officers, especially in terms of AIRBUS and experience in the south east asian region verbatim!!!
I am tired of hearing this propoganda dribble from the mainline pilot group that J* Intl will be recruiting non english speaking,marginal standard aircrew from third world airlines from around the world. Hardly the case given the overwhelming response to J* Intls recent advertisement for experienced A330 and A320 crews.
When running a business, like Mr Joyce, naturally you want to employ the most qualified people in the marketforce that are interested, and believe it or not, that is exactly what he is going to do!!
Last edited by Iakklat; 5th May 2006 at 09:10.
Iakklat...
I haven't gone through all the threads with a fine tooth comb but I believe it was Sunfish who first implied that "J* Intl will be recruiting non english speaking,marginal standard aircrew from third world airlines", not "the mainline pilot group". I don't believe it's the majority view of mainline pilots, or AIPA for that matter, that the J*Int recruits are sub-standard. What is frustrating the QF pilots is that;
- despite QF having a repututation for VERY picky criteria for its pilots (yes, arguably pointlessly so given the proficiency of many rejected candidates), and
- despite its enviable, and very marketable reputation, and
- despite many of QF's staff having the opportunity and potential to work elsewhere in the past but choosing the pay discount to stay in Oz, and
- despite being one of the most profitable airlines in the world at present thanks in large part to the workforce it has had to date, and
- despite having, to date, a very compliant pilot group whose contracts allow some 'world's best practice' crewing complements and pay for long-haul operations and 'world's best practice' contract flexibilities, pay and annual limits in Short-haul operations, and
- despite all its staff 'playing by the rules' and, in the case of pilots, gaining experience under the contract rules until promotional opportunities arise in accord with existing agreements,
Qantas management has given the distinct impression that it was all for nought!
When an opportunity has arisen to circumvent existing staff rather than be open, inclusive and honest, they've taken the easy road and are trying to burn their own. When justifying this course they have used half-truths, part-truths and convenient spin to try to bolster their arguments. When their constant mantra is cost-cutting due to fuel price rises there is NO evidence that their own belts are being tightened too or that "we're all in this together people". (Their bonuses are evidently too valuable for that level of commitment) When targeting savings there seems to be NO accountability or explanation for expensive drains on the 'QF group' like J* Asia.
The staff are not fools. They can see J* using QF fuel hedging, QF purchasing power for new aircraft, QF engineering assistance, QF airport facilities, QF simulators and training facilities, QF jets, recent pilots recruited through the QF system, and even the QF reputation! Yet J* is actively seeking to exclude 'pollution' from mainline, and the criteria preclude even most regional pilots from other parts of the QF group from applying.
In QF's double-speak, "world's best practice" means "cheaper than QF", "employee engagement" means "they're not leaving so hit 'em harder", and the phrase "we value our people" is followed in action by a muttered "unless we can avoid dealing with them". The examples of profitable airlines like Southwest (lower management pay than QF but higher staff pay) are completely overlooked when convenient.
For me, that about sums it up, and I wish it weren't that way. I know most of my work-mates are practical, proficient, flexible individuals who have helped get QF where it is today and aspire to a long, innovative and prosperous career in aviation, preferably with QF. It's just that I am underwhelmed by the deplorable leadership and poor communication I have observed. I just hope it gets better soon.
- despite QF having a repututation for VERY picky criteria for its pilots (yes, arguably pointlessly so given the proficiency of many rejected candidates), and
- despite its enviable, and very marketable reputation, and
- despite many of QF's staff having the opportunity and potential to work elsewhere in the past but choosing the pay discount to stay in Oz, and
- despite being one of the most profitable airlines in the world at present thanks in large part to the workforce it has had to date, and
- despite having, to date, a very compliant pilot group whose contracts allow some 'world's best practice' crewing complements and pay for long-haul operations and 'world's best practice' contract flexibilities, pay and annual limits in Short-haul operations, and
- despite all its staff 'playing by the rules' and, in the case of pilots, gaining experience under the contract rules until promotional opportunities arise in accord with existing agreements,
Qantas management has given the distinct impression that it was all for nought!
When an opportunity has arisen to circumvent existing staff rather than be open, inclusive and honest, they've taken the easy road and are trying to burn their own. When justifying this course they have used half-truths, part-truths and convenient spin to try to bolster their arguments. When their constant mantra is cost-cutting due to fuel price rises there is NO evidence that their own belts are being tightened too or that "we're all in this together people". (Their bonuses are evidently too valuable for that level of commitment) When targeting savings there seems to be NO accountability or explanation for expensive drains on the 'QF group' like J* Asia.
The staff are not fools. They can see J* using QF fuel hedging, QF purchasing power for new aircraft, QF engineering assistance, QF airport facilities, QF simulators and training facilities, QF jets, recent pilots recruited through the QF system, and even the QF reputation! Yet J* is actively seeking to exclude 'pollution' from mainline, and the criteria preclude even most regional pilots from other parts of the QF group from applying.
In QF's double-speak, "world's best practice" means "cheaper than QF", "employee engagement" means "they're not leaving so hit 'em harder", and the phrase "we value our people" is followed in action by a muttered "unless we can avoid dealing with them". The examples of profitable airlines like Southwest (lower management pay than QF but higher staff pay) are completely overlooked when convenient.
For me, that about sums it up, and I wish it weren't that way. I know most of my work-mates are practical, proficient, flexible individuals who have helped get QF where it is today and aspire to a long, innovative and prosperous career in aviation, preferably with QF. It's just that I am underwhelmed by the deplorable leadership and poor communication I have observed. I just hope it gets better soon.
Last edited by Jetsbest; 6th May 2006 at 01:08.
There is another post on another thread that talks about Qantas's "De-Australianisation" strategy. I stand by what I said. The current Qantas management appetite for lower and lower costs will never be satisfied, so yes, one day it will be third world pilots with broken English.
On a slightly different note, If you want to do anything about your terms and conditions, apart from continually whine, you are going to have to attack the Qantas BRAND and state that it is no longer "the spirit of Australia", unless it is manned by Australians.
On a slightly different note, If you want to do anything about your terms and conditions, apart from continually whine, you are going to have to attack the Qantas BRAND and state that it is no longer "the spirit of Australia", unless it is manned by Australians.
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I worry about flying with pilots who are not born here or trained here. It's bad enough in the circuit at YMMB on some days trying to hear what someone is trying to say, and knowing, that if he cannot work out what to say he is going to say nothing at all because that is the culture he grew up in.
Wake up and smell the VB guys..when are you going to realise that aviation is a GLOBAL market? there are far and away more Aussies flying in more crowded..more complex..and more profitable skies than many of you on here can even contemplate.
Jet* are just trying to capitalise on this..they have a cost of doing business..and want to make a profit. End of story..if you dont want the job dont take it
And in case nobody else has actually noticed, the ranks of experienced narrow and wide-body crews..are VERY VERY thin....hence some of the latest EK offers
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Anbody considering a DEC with J* should carefully consider the following clauses in the J* agreement.
"Such pilots will be issued a seniority number below all existing pilots on the seniority list in order of start date"
"Such pilots will be employed as a full time First Officer but may be transferred on a temporary basis for a fixed period as Captain during the implementation period of any new aircraft type. The term will normally not exceed two years with the exception of the A330 interim aircraft which may be three years. The company will consult the Jetstar Pilots Council about extensions beyond these periods."
So all the Airbus command time in the world isn't going to matter a single bit when you get booted back to F/O status. Think you'll get a 787 command, think again, there is 150-200 F/O's waiting ahead of you.
"Such pilots will be issued a seniority number below all existing pilots on the seniority list in order of start date"
"Such pilots will be employed as a full time First Officer but may be transferred on a temporary basis for a fixed period as Captain during the implementation period of any new aircraft type. The term will normally not exceed two years with the exception of the A330 interim aircraft which may be three years. The company will consult the Jetstar Pilots Council about extensions beyond these periods."
So all the Airbus command time in the world isn't going to matter a single bit when you get booted back to F/O status. Think you'll get a 787 command, think again, there is 150-200 F/O's waiting ahead of you.
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Jetsbest,
There has been a mass of postings on this forum re the vagaries of QF’s industrial relations record of the past decade. Most of them allude to some of the points you make but none sum up the dominant perception of the majority of its employees and a growing proportion of the general public as succinctly as you have. Thanks for that.
Sunfish is right however in that if any recognition and acceptance of the corporate knowledge and value of current employees was ever going to happen, it would have by now. The fact that QF are trading and profiting on and from the very nationalism that management practices and planning are undermining is the only chink in the armour. The trouble is that such a strategy carries the real risk of self harm and this is why management are confident the odds are in their favour.
There has been a mass of postings on this forum re the vagaries of QF’s industrial relations record of the past decade. Most of them allude to some of the points you make but none sum up the dominant perception of the majority of its employees and a growing proportion of the general public as succinctly as you have. Thanks for that.
Sunfish is right however in that if any recognition and acceptance of the corporate knowledge and value of current employees was ever going to happen, it would have by now. The fact that QF are trading and profiting on and from the very nationalism that management practices and planning are undermining is the only chink in the armour. The trouble is that such a strategy carries the real risk of self harm and this is why management are confident the odds are in their favour.