Chief Pilots potential demise rumours....
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What is it about Qantas Pilots (a very small number I should think) that makes them want to air their dirty washing in a public forum? If I was in an airline that had the moral problem that Qantas has, I wouldnt be telling the world.
But then I guess, who cares? At least they are not being their usual sactimonious selves and belittling us other poor sods who are unworthy.
I know I shouldn't feel like this but I am enjoying watching cannibalism in action.
And it's DEBACLE boys, DEBACLE! (but its pronounced debarcle!)
james
But then I guess, who cares? At least they are not being their usual sactimonious selves and belittling us other poor sods who are unworthy.
I know I shouldn't feel like this but I am enjoying watching cannibalism in action.
And it's DEBACLE boys, DEBACLE! (but its pronounced debarcle!)
james
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Qantas pilots, in fact all Qantas Staff from my observation, have a morale problem. This is exactly why people are airing their dirty laundry on a public forum - they just don’t care any more! (kind of the definition of a morale problem wouldn’t you say?
).
The problem with morals rests with the management which in turn might have caused the morale problem.
).The problem with morals rests with the management which in turn might have caused the morale problem.
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Originally Posted by speeeedy
Qantas pilots, in fact all Qantas Staff from my observation, have a morale problem. This is exactly why people are airing their dirty laundry on a public forum - they just don’t care any more! (kind of the definition of a morale problem wouldn’t you say? ).
).
Nunc est bibendum
Lert raises an interesting scenario and one that has been the discussion point on many flight decks that I've been on over the last month or so. That is the fact that whilst crew feel very alienated from the 'management', they are fully 'engaged' with the job of being a professional pilot. We're all working to a high standard to ensure a safe, comfortable, on time and economically viable. I've watched guys and heard of guys move heaven and earth to achieve that standard whilst at the same time giving the 'company' an awful bagging for some of the methodology utilised in dealing with their employees.
Perhaps that's why some people don't think there is a problem- ultimately people like Lert don't see the effect of it. I'll take that as a back handed compliment for the level of professionalism shown by the various crews!
Perhaps that's why some people don't think there is a problem- ultimately people like Lert don't see the effect of it. I'll take that as a back handed compliment for the level of professionalism shown by the various crews!
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Keg, thats why 'Mr Mannering' wont let you resit the engagement survey. "Everythings fine, they are not out there actively crashing aeroplanes, so whats the problem?" 
Go on, be honest, you haven't seen anyone up the fuel order or the cost index, or wait for non essential catering etc etc etc "Just cos the company couldn't give a fcuk so neither do we" routine? You havent seen this on any of your trips? Or are you just too firm handed and stamp out that nonsense the moment it rears its ugly head on your flight deck?
Go on, be honest, you haven't seen anyone up the fuel order or the cost index, or wait for non essential catering etc etc etc "Just cos the company couldn't give a fcuk so neither do we" routine? You havent seen this on any of your trips? Or are you just too firm handed and stamp out that nonsense the moment it rears its ugly head on your flight deck?
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Elroy, are you saying you have seen such behaviour?
I'll tell you what happens.
Spoilt brats whinging about "how hard they got it" and "how bad it is because I should be in the next seat" and "I shouldn't have to change airplanes to take promotion" whilst doing the bare minimum in their jobs and frankly often showing a standard little better than Flying Clubs (in fact sometimes worse).
Of course they're disengaged. The company is asking them to actually justify their money and maybe work for a living instead of swanning from pi** up to pi** up.
I'll tell you what happens.
Spoilt brats whinging about "how hard they got it" and "how bad it is because I should be in the next seat" and "I shouldn't have to change airplanes to take promotion" whilst doing the bare minimum in their jobs and frankly often showing a standard little better than Flying Clubs (in fact sometimes worse).
Of course they're disengaged. The company is asking them to actually justify their money and maybe work for a living instead of swanning from pi** up to pi** up.
Nunc est bibendum
Elroy,
Heard of it? Yep- I was in a place over the last few years to hear of it frequently. Those who know me know where I was. Generally it was reported as the same few people.
Seen it in the last 18 months on the 767? No.
Seen it on my short time on the 744? No.
If someone tried it on me, I'd question it. Beyond that we're playing Geoffrey Robertson (or is it Robinson?!?!
) hypotheticals.
If you're not going to add something constructive Lucius, find somewhere else to play!
Heard of it? Yep- I was in a place over the last few years to hear of it frequently. Those who know me know where I was. Generally it was reported as the same few people.
Seen it in the last 18 months on the 767? No.
Seen it on my short time on the 744? No.
If someone tried it on me, I'd question it. Beyond that we're playing Geoffrey Robertson (or is it Robinson?!?!
) hypotheticals. If you're not going to add something constructive Lucius, find somewhere else to play!
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Hmmm LV. Thanks for telling me how it is. I originally had you pegged as a QF wannabe that failed to get in and now hates QF pilots. I then thought, hang on, maybe a "has been" com member that was dumped at the last election, and now thinks all QF pilots who voted against you are scum. Now, it seems you are suitably qualified to judge the performance of other techies and rank their performance based on what you saw at an aero club. Very impressive.
Nah, I'll stick with the wannabe. What year did you miss out?
As for your assessment of engagement, it is so far from the mark, you sure you aren't in management, or at least in an advisory role?
Nah, I'll stick with the wannabe. What year did you miss out?
As for your assessment of engagement, it is so far from the mark, you sure you aren't in management, or at least in an advisory role?
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Geez Keg, I stand corrected! Maybe they were a little more discrete by diguising it with comments like "weather avoidance fuel" or "rolling tempos" or "extra taxi"? 
Ok, i'll see myself out.
Ok, i'll see myself out.
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Originally Posted by Keg
I'll take that as a back handed compliment for the level of professionalism shown by the various crews!
Cheers.
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Elroy,
Pal, I notice you don't find fault with what I say, just the fact that I say it. You use the argument "he puts the counter-point, ergo he must not know the facts or have an ulterior motive." Sorry, not valid.
Keg, sorry old son but you have missed the point too. This thread is not for construction. Quite the opposite in fact.
Pal, I notice you don't find fault with what I say, just the fact that I say it. You use the argument "he puts the counter-point, ergo he must not know the facts or have an ulterior motive." Sorry, not valid.
Keg, sorry old son but you have missed the point too. This thread is not for construction. Quite the opposite in fact.
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LV ole Pal, I'll tell you whats not valid, it is those pathetic complaints you have made up, that you think are the pilot bodies basis for lack of engagement.
"How hard they got it". This is just BS. The pilot body realise they are in a privilaged position, they are happy with current T&Cs, they dont want them reduced due to "Market Forces" that our own management created. We are told that jester is the new yard stick for T&Cs and we now have to compete with them. This would be valid if they were opposition, but they are part of the Qantas group. Not conducive to good morale or engagement or company loyalty.
"I should be in the next seat". We have seniority that determines who gets the next seat. Seniority is not an issue that is causing disengagement. So again, BS.
"Changing planes for promotion?" If you think vertical promotion is still an issue, think again. Bidding is now open for the 380. Just move over to that.
Your reasons for disengagement show a distinct lack of touch that only comes from outside the company or an aloof individual with absolutely no comprehension of the issues that are of concern to the pilot body.
So yes, I do find fault with what you say, it is isn't hard when you speak absolute cr@p.
"How hard they got it". This is just BS. The pilot body realise they are in a privilaged position, they are happy with current T&Cs, they dont want them reduced due to "Market Forces" that our own management created. We are told that jester is the new yard stick for T&Cs and we now have to compete with them. This would be valid if they were opposition, but they are part of the Qantas group. Not conducive to good morale or engagement or company loyalty.
"I should be in the next seat". We have seniority that determines who gets the next seat. Seniority is not an issue that is causing disengagement. So again, BS.
"Changing planes for promotion?" If you think vertical promotion is still an issue, think again. Bidding is now open for the 380. Just move over to that.
Your reasons for disengagement show a distinct lack of touch that only comes from outside the company or an aloof individual with absolutely no comprehension of the issues that are of concern to the pilot body.
So yes, I do find fault with what you say, it is isn't hard when you speak absolute cr@p.
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Dear Elroy,
Thanks for playing ball.
OK so we have to compete with Jetstar? Is that better or worse than having to compete with Emirates or Singair or another non Q LCC like Virgin Blue? Is that better or worse than Q having to compete with other airlines for a dedicated workforce? Mate globalisation weren't invented by Q but by golly they're stuck in it now. People just want no progress (like being made to work harder) ...when it happens they whinge.
Seniority not an issue? Guess you haven't been following the SBL saga? People want promotion to be as fast as in 2002. When they don't get it they whinge.
Sorry mate, again no cigar. Guys are mighty peeved that they have to work for a living on lesser types instead of swanning away on the MRV.
One thing you do learn and I'll tell you this for free...when people get peeved they whinge...but not necessarily about the things that have peeved them.
Thanks for playing ball.
The pilot body realise they are in a privilaged position, they are happy with current T&Cs, they dont want them reduced due to "Market Forces" that our own management created. We are told that jester is the new yard stick for T&Cs and we now have to compete with them.
I should be in the next seat". We have seniority that determines who gets the next seat. Seniority is not an issue that is causing disengagement. So again, BS.
"Changing planes for promotion?" If you think vertical promotion is still an issue, think again. Bidding is now open for the 380. Just move over to that.
One thing you do learn and I'll tell you this for free...when people get peeved they whinge...but not necessarily about the things that have peeved them.
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Ok, I'll bite! Of course it is better to fight an external fight with management and staff headed in a common direction. It beats the hell out of fighting each other, and trying to compete in that environment. Jester and QF are competing in completely seperate markets. GD knows this, he has said it numerous times. You dont see Daimler Benz starting a price war with Kia, they are smart enough to know that they would lose. Plenty of full service airlines have failed by making that mistake. JQ was set up to compete with VB, now they are saying we must compete with it. Go figure...
As for a fight with singas and EK, different story. Different game. We are fighting with an inferior product, and an uncompetetive playing field in the form of foreign investment limitations and a massive tax imbalance.
SBLs? Only an issue for a few greedy children who dont want to share their toys. They are too busy fighting to realise that Daddy is manouvering to take their toys away from all of them. Those closer to the door can hear Daddy in the hall, and are watching for the door handle to turn. Doesnt mean we have a problem with seniority though. No one else has come up with a fairer system for promotion, or bidding, but they have come up with a fairer system for rostering, so it needs to be discussed, voted on, and tested. Anyway, the disengagement is with the company, not between factions within the pilot body. Different arguement.
Everybody knows that promotion in 2001/2 was due to the demise of AN, and the rush for both QF and VB to fill the substantial market share void left in its wake. It was a gift to both operators that we probably wont see again in the near future. No one was expecting that rush to continue. The slow down has also come at a time where the group has seen massive expansion, with the mainline pilots knowing that every command, every jet that went to Jester wasnt going to mainline, and we weren't even given a seat at the table to discuss an AO type deal. So yes promotion has slowed, its no suprise to us why. No one sitting here wondering where their command went, they can see them on the tarmac at every domestic terminal.
I'll tell you this for free, when a group prides itself on a long standing good working relationship with managment suddenly thumbs their nose at you and doesnt want to move forward as one with the company anymore, it may pay to listen, and not just think you know why.
Of course it is better to fight an external fight with management and staff headed in a common direction. It beats the hell out of fighting each other, and trying to compete in that environment. Jester and QF are competing in completely seperate markets. GD knows this, he has said it numerous times. You dont see Daimler Benz starting a price war with Kia, they are smart enough to know that they would lose. Plenty of full service airlines have failed by making that mistake. JQ was set up to compete with VB, now they are saying we must compete with it. Go figure...As for a fight with singas and EK, different story. Different game. We are fighting with an inferior product, and an uncompetetive playing field in the form of foreign investment limitations and a massive tax imbalance.
SBLs? Only an issue for a few greedy children who dont want to share their toys. They are too busy fighting to realise that Daddy is manouvering to take their toys away from all of them. Those closer to the door can hear Daddy in the hall, and are watching for the door handle to turn. Doesnt mean we have a problem with seniority though. No one else has come up with a fairer system for promotion, or bidding, but they have come up with a fairer system for rostering, so it needs to be discussed, voted on, and tested. Anyway, the disengagement is with the company, not between factions within the pilot body. Different arguement.
Everybody knows that promotion in 2001/2 was due to the demise of AN, and the rush for both QF and VB to fill the substantial market share void left in its wake. It was a gift to both operators that we probably wont see again in the near future. No one was expecting that rush to continue. The slow down has also come at a time where the group has seen massive expansion, with the mainline pilots knowing that every command, every jet that went to Jester wasnt going to mainline, and we weren't even given a seat at the table to discuss an AO type deal. So yes promotion has slowed, its no suprise to us why. No one sitting here wondering where their command went, they can see them on the tarmac at every domestic terminal.
I'll tell you this for free, when a group prides itself on a long standing good working relationship with managment suddenly thumbs their nose at you and doesnt want to move forward as one with the company anymore, it may pay to listen, and not just think you know why.
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Dear Elroy,
Not correct. Customers are generally more than happy with our product. We excel at safe, friendly, efficient Australian service. We also excel at being inconsistent in the delivery of that service and that is the area we must improve on. We must get it right every time. If the price is much the same people like to fly the big Q. If I can help to get that consistency and price to competitive levels without hurting myself or family I will.
You are correct in saying that there is a perception of competition between Q and JQ. I think this is more a perception (closet fear) than a fact. The airlines are in fact complimentary. Sure management wants to play up the competition aspects but do we let them? I say no! I say business as usual! They are, after all, different business models. Keep them separate.
Hypothetically if JQ hadn't happened where would all those commands be? You can bet they would not have been at Q. JQ exists only to protect market share of Q.
Listen to what? I generally make up my own mind on things thanks mate. Haven't seen too much recently to change my mind. Generally when I see someone doing something silly I don't imitate.
We are fighting with an inferior product
You are correct in saying that there is a perception of competition between Q and JQ. I think this is more a perception (closet fear) than a fact. The airlines are in fact complimentary. Sure management wants to play up the competition aspects but do we let them? I say no! I say business as usual! They are, after all, different business models. Keep them separate.
No one sitting here wondering where their command went, they can see them on the tarmac at every domestic terminal.
when a group prides itself on a long standing good working relationship with managment suddenly thumbs their nose at you and doesnt want to move forward as one with the company anymore, it may pay to listen, and not just think you know why.
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Customers are more happy with our product, we just cant deliver it? Seriously? Inferior product, which ever way you want to justify it. The company knows we would be decimated if we had to go head to head with SQ and EK on the pacific run, so they hide behind the thin veil of government protectionism while accusing the opposition of doing exactly that. If they thought for one minute they had a better product, they would allow them to fly it to show them how things are done. Remember, you said we were having globalisation thrust on us. Where is the evidence of it?
Hypothetically speaking? OK, if the management allowed us to negotiate an AO style agreement with JQ, then yes, our junior guys commands are parked next to us at the terminal. Do you think hiring direct entry captains from overseas is an efficient ethical use of labour while the compay pays displaced A330 crews to sit around in mainline? Or are they just whingers who dont want to work too? Remember, the 330 for JQ is just there for the short term anyway.
As for "listen to what?" The company scores the lowest "Engagement" result in corporate history, do I really need to elaborate? Or are we just all whingers, and that is that. Dont want to discuss it anymore!
Inferior product, which ever way you want to justify it. The company knows we would be decimated if we had to go head to head with SQ and EK on the pacific run, so they hide behind the thin veil of government protectionism while accusing the opposition of doing exactly that. If they thought for one minute they had a better product, they would allow them to fly it to show them how things are done. Remember, you said we were having globalisation thrust on us. Where is the evidence of it?Hypothetically speaking? OK, if the management allowed us to negotiate an AO style agreement with JQ, then yes, our junior guys commands are parked next to us at the terminal. Do you think hiring direct entry captains from overseas is an efficient ethical use of labour while the compay pays displaced A330 crews to sit around in mainline? Or are they just whingers who dont want to work too? Remember, the 330 for JQ is just there for the short term anyway.
As for "listen to what?" The company scores the lowest "Engagement" result in corporate history, do I really need to elaborate? Or are we just all whingers, and that is that. Dont want to discuss it anymore!
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Dear Elroy,
Sorry, in which way is the product inferior? Specifics please and customer survey results please.
Incorrect. Q knows it would lose market share on the Pacific. Equal losses would be felt by United and ANZ. Q can only maintain some sort of protection on the Pacific if it can show that it is a company that is trying to compete against unfair opposition. Very hard to do that with a perception of fat-cat staff.
And why should they do that? They have people who will do it for less. Don't say because we're loyal employees because you keep saying we ain't! You guys keep going on about how disengaged you are. Why trust the disengaged ones? Why trust a mob whose "president elect" couldn't keep his mouth shut even before he was elected?
.Inferior product, which ever way you want to justify it.
The company knows we would be decimated if we had to go head to head with SQ and EK on the pacific run, so they hide behind the thin veil of government protectionism while accusing the opposition of doing exactly that.
OK, if the management allowed us to negotiate an AO style agreement with JQ,
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specifics
Lucius,
Quote…..
“Sorry, in which way is the product inferior? Specifics please and customer survey results please.”
As you believe that our product is superior ,please give me specifics and details as well as customer surveys that show that we do have a superior product to EK and SIA !
Quote…..
“Sorry, in which way is the product inferior? Specifics please and customer survey results please.”
As you believe that our product is superior ,please give me specifics and details as well as customer surveys that show that we do have a superior product to EK and SIA !
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[QUOTE=Lucius Vorenus]Dear Elroy,
Sorry, in which way is the product inferior? Specifics please and customer survey results please.
NOTE TO LV:
QF's service is crap! - expensive crap at that! - and Australians know this and are spreading the word. Where have you been? Under a rock or head in the sand?
MENTAL NOTE TO SELF:
Do not waste time spelling things out to idiots like this in future if you can help it.
Bo!
Sorry, in which way is the product inferior? Specifics please and customer survey results please.
NOTE TO LV:
QF's service is crap! - expensive crap at that! - and Australians know this and are spreading the word. Where have you been? Under a rock or head in the sand?
MENTAL NOTE TO SELF:
Do not waste time spelling things out to idiots like this in future if you can help it.
Bo!
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Dear Gentle Correspondents,
Rather than flaming me perhaps you should read again what I said:
Now you disagree. You say our customers are unhappy. You say we don't excel at safe, friendly efficient Australian service.
Well pardon me but every time I am in the cabin, every time I am at the cockpit door when they deplane, every time I talk to customers of ours wherever I meet them they tell me the above things without prompting. They like us but they are price sensitive and we are inconsistent.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Here's another quote of mine:
Feeling peeved chaps?
Rather than flaming me perhaps you should read again what I said:
Customers are generally more than happy with our product. We excel at safe, friendly, efficient Australian service. We also excel at being inconsistent in the delivery of that service and that is the area we must improve on. We must get it right every time. If the price is much the same people like to fly the big Q.
Well pardon me but every time I am in the cabin, every time I am at the cockpit door when they deplane, every time I talk to customers of ours wherever I meet them they tell me the above things without prompting. They like us but they are price sensitive and we are inconsistent.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Here's another quote of mine:
when people get peeved they whinge...but not necessarily about the things that have peeved them.