Geoff Dixon Writes To 2600 Pilots, Threatens Union Payment Cuts
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Vagabond,
“. . . . .and that the QRH solves all evils. . . . “
Actually, I only referred to the QRH in connection to Bomb On Board. I would never suggest that the QRH solves all evils, however when it comes to the extremely remote chance of having a bomb, the QRH is more than enough.
PW1830,
Perhaps you could explain which part of my post you find so offensive. I was merely commenting that the job of flying transport aircraft is far less complex as a result of technology than in days gone by, the statistics don’t lie. There are numerous ways to justify the high salaries usually paid to airline pilots but operational complexity is becoming less relevant.
You may harbor a distrust of the gadgets installed in modern aircraft but most of my colleagues are more than happy to recline behind the newspaper and work through a sudoko or two. The days of sitting at the ready, eyes fixed on the horizon and hand ready to takeover the controls are gone. 777’s and A330’s are not flown, they are monitored.
Electras and Viscounts – now that’s a different story.
“. . . . .and that the QRH solves all evils. . . . “
Actually, I only referred to the QRH in connection to Bomb On Board. I would never suggest that the QRH solves all evils, however when it comes to the extremely remote chance of having a bomb, the QRH is more than enough.
PW1830,
Perhaps you could explain which part of my post you find so offensive. I was merely commenting that the job of flying transport aircraft is far less complex as a result of technology than in days gone by, the statistics don’t lie. There are numerous ways to justify the high salaries usually paid to airline pilots but operational complexity is becoming less relevant.
You may harbor a distrust of the gadgets installed in modern aircraft but most of my colleagues are more than happy to recline behind the newspaper and work through a sudoko or two. The days of sitting at the ready, eyes fixed on the horizon and hand ready to takeover the controls are gone. 777’s and A330’s are not flown, they are monitored.
Electras and Viscounts – now that’s a different story.
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oicur, your post is a tad flippant. does your cat III which lets you autoland in marginal conditions let you do it at 30kts xwind? of course i know what you meant by your post, but it can be read many ways.
what does your fmc do with reserve fuel, my one merely reflects what i put in it preflight, or if i update it inflight. it doesnt calculate legal or company requirements for a diversion. i do that.
computers havent made the pilot necessarily relax and fall asleep, some people can fall asleep anywhere. maybe you feel at ease cause you have faith in the other pilot with you on duty, combined with the relatively reliable aircraft systems.
QRH more than enough for a bomb threat - in what sense- if you have a bomb on board your stuffed anyway?
what does your fmc do with reserve fuel, my one merely reflects what i put in it preflight, or if i update it inflight. it doesnt calculate legal or company requirements for a diversion. i do that.
computers havent made the pilot necessarily relax and fall asleep, some people can fall asleep anywhere. maybe you feel at ease cause you have faith in the other pilot with you on duty, combined with the relatively reliable aircraft systems.
QRH more than enough for a bomb threat - in what sense- if you have a bomb on board your stuffed anyway?
The Reverend
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oicur12, I have been involved in three bomb threats during my career in the Far East. Fortunately all of them hoax calls but none the less disturbing when informed by Control. Especially after one of our aircraft was blown up over Viet Nam by an in flight insurance beneficiary.
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rescue 1 said, on page 5:
Secondly, throughout my years in aviation, all I see is pilots going against and fighting other Pilots. I never see the same antagonism in the medical or legal or any other professional body, yet Pilots go about change tactics in the same way the BLF would respond.
Perhaps its time to take a look around and act as the professionals that we all claim to be.
well rescue, they do attack each other, just as much as you see pilots doing. It's not a new phenomenon. It's been going on since men were hanging from trees and still goes on in the animal kingdom. It's called "survival" and it will never change.
Some are more aggressive at it than others, but all are capable of it to a greater or lesser degree.
Secondly, throughout my years in aviation, all I see is pilots going against and fighting other Pilots. I never see the same antagonism in the medical or legal or any other professional body, yet Pilots go about change tactics in the same way the BLF would respond.
Perhaps its time to take a look around and act as the professionals that we all claim to be.
well rescue, they do attack each other, just as much as you see pilots doing. It's not a new phenomenon. It's been going on since men were hanging from trees and still goes on in the animal kingdom. It's called "survival" and it will never change.
Some are more aggressive at it than others, but all are capable of it to a greater or lesser degree.
Originally Posted by vagabond 47
Just love these "shiny butt Baron to Boeing NG Capts" that think Cat111a Autoland whilst having a coffee is bad WEATHER, and that the QRH solves all evils.....Shows a fundimental deficiency in Maturity with this RELIANCE on all that is electronic and that is what is scary about modern Aviation.
I only hope I'm not a passenger on his flight some day when hard earned experience is required not blind reliance on the wonders of modern aviation technology.
I guess the old addage is right.. pay peanuts get monkeys.
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Hotdog,
Bomb threats do occur; I have not suggested that they don’t. The article written by Bob Buck finished with “Airline pilots go through stuff like this all the time” after detailing a bomb on board incident. This is simply not true.
Cloudbuster,
It wouldn’t be pprune without someone arguing against a point of view that simply does not exist. Thank you for your reasoned, well constructed and objective opinion. Bravo.
I have not suggested that I have “no more to learn”. I do not for a second believe that I have no more “experience to gain”. From what part of my post you have gleaned such an impression I am not sure but please accept my apologies for misleading you.
As for any future “f@ck ups” that I may make – and I will make them - I thank the fine people in Toulouse for giving me 3 ADIRS, 2 GPS, 2 autopilots, autothrust, autoland, flight envelope protections, TCAS, EGPWS, Predictive Windshear Detection, FPV, Nav Display’s and many other goodies that thankfully will ensure that my “f@ck ups” are far less consequential than when I flew aircraft with little or no automation and that I spend less time flying the aircraft and more time monitoring its progress. And reading the paper.
I make just as many mistakes as the next person and I am fully aware that the swiss cheese is full of holes just waiting to be aligned. But I also understand that operating a glass jet requires a reliance on technology that once did not exist. The flying skills required to operate an A320 or a 777 are not the same as the skills required to operate a Conny and to argue as such is simply falling prey to a common problem facing the airline industry – the thinking of the end user often lags way behind the actual technological developments of the equipment being used. In simple terms, pilots often try to complicate something that the manufacturer has spent vast sums of money simplifying.
The main point I am trying to make is that the threats facing the operation of a modern automated aircraft are very real but also very different from many of the issues discussed in the article by Bob Buck.
Times change. That is all.
Bomb threats do occur; I have not suggested that they don’t. The article written by Bob Buck finished with “Airline pilots go through stuff like this all the time” after detailing a bomb on board incident. This is simply not true.
Cloudbuster,
It wouldn’t be pprune without someone arguing against a point of view that simply does not exist. Thank you for your reasoned, well constructed and objective opinion. Bravo.
I have not suggested that I have “no more to learn”. I do not for a second believe that I have no more “experience to gain”. From what part of my post you have gleaned such an impression I am not sure but please accept my apologies for misleading you.
As for any future “f@ck ups” that I may make – and I will make them - I thank the fine people in Toulouse for giving me 3 ADIRS, 2 GPS, 2 autopilots, autothrust, autoland, flight envelope protections, TCAS, EGPWS, Predictive Windshear Detection, FPV, Nav Display’s and many other goodies that thankfully will ensure that my “f@ck ups” are far less consequential than when I flew aircraft with little or no automation and that I spend less time flying the aircraft and more time monitoring its progress. And reading the paper.
I make just as many mistakes as the next person and I am fully aware that the swiss cheese is full of holes just waiting to be aligned. But I also understand that operating a glass jet requires a reliance on technology that once did not exist. The flying skills required to operate an A320 or a 777 are not the same as the skills required to operate a Conny and to argue as such is simply falling prey to a common problem facing the airline industry – the thinking of the end user often lags way behind the actual technological developments of the equipment being used. In simple terms, pilots often try to complicate something that the manufacturer has spent vast sums of money simplifying.
The main point I am trying to make is that the threats facing the operation of a modern automated aircraft are very real but also very different from many of the issues discussed in the article by Bob Buck.
Times change. That is all.
oicur
You take every opportunity possible to dumb down the profession. Are you a contrarian or is it just perverse symptoms of professional masochism?
In the simulator, are you required to demonstrate the ability in your Airbus to fly without ADR's in an engine failure scenario? Or manage the ambiguity of the Franglais in the QRH bomb threat, justifying your interpretation ( there are at least two ). Then post detonation, managing an emergency descent, landing etc etc.
It would seem you are paid more for what you know, more so than what you do on a sunny day.
Bob Buck " Airline pilots go through stuff like this all the time". Depending on the airline, every 90 days!
Failsafe CAT 111 a or b? You sound Arabic or Korean. Beware of sandstorms, gustfronts and typhoons.
You take every opportunity possible to dumb down the profession. Are you a contrarian or is it just perverse symptoms of professional masochism?
In the simulator, are you required to demonstrate the ability in your Airbus to fly without ADR's in an engine failure scenario? Or manage the ambiguity of the Franglais in the QRH bomb threat, justifying your interpretation ( there are at least two ). Then post detonation, managing an emergency descent, landing etc etc.
It would seem you are paid more for what you know, more so than what you do on a sunny day.
Bob Buck " Airline pilots go through stuff like this all the time". Depending on the airline, every 90 days!
Failsafe CAT 111 a or b? You sound Arabic or Korean. Beware of sandstorms, gustfronts and typhoons.
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Oicur, did you go the same school that Bob Hawke went to for flying lessons? The one that taught him that airline pilots are just glorified bus drivers?
I have seen the damage that attitudes like this have had on the industry Stateside. A local flying school has had three accidents in three successive months. The increasing problem comes with insurance and liability. No flying school can afford to pay a livable wage in this part of the country, so the self-defeating cycle just continues.
We were in New Orleans the other night on a ferry leg in and learned that a charter outfit flying a light jet refused to land there without a VASI.
How 'bout we actually get back to putting down the newspapers and card games, (I can't actually believe your company doesn't have policies against this, that's what crew rest is for), and go back to hand-flying once in a while when the boredom sets in? It might just save you one day..being able to fly proficiently.
I have seen the damage that attitudes like this have had on the industry Stateside. A local flying school has had three accidents in three successive months. The increasing problem comes with insurance and liability. No flying school can afford to pay a livable wage in this part of the country, so the self-defeating cycle just continues.
We were in New Orleans the other night on a ferry leg in and learned that a charter outfit flying a light jet refused to land there without a VASI.
How 'bout we actually get back to putting down the newspapers and card games, (I can't actually believe your company doesn't have policies against this, that's what crew rest is for), and go back to hand-flying once in a while when the boredom sets in? It might just save you one day..being able to fly proficiently.
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Originally Posted by ys120fz
rescue 1 said, on page 5:
well rescue, they do attack each other, just as much as you see pilots doing. It's not a new phenomenon. It's been going on since men were hanging from trees and still goes on in the animal kingdom. It's called "survival" and it will never change.
well rescue, they do attack each other, just as much as you see pilots doing. It's not a new phenomenon. It's been going on since men were hanging from trees and still goes on in the animal kingdom. It's called "survival" and it will never change.
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Gnads, chris, cloudy etc - being a bit paranoid are we not.
No one has suggested that flying is easy, just different to what it was and i agree. gimmee the 744 any day over a classic - much easier to operate. automation makes our jo easier - no question about it. autothrust especially.
getting upset cos you think its going to result in lower pay is stupid - every industry job builds itself into mystery just to justify maintaining conditions of service.
flying is no different.
No one has suggested that flying is easy, just different to what it was and i agree. gimmee the 744 any day over a classic - much easier to operate. automation makes our jo easier - no question about it. autothrust especially.
getting upset cos you think its going to result in lower pay is stupid - every industry job builds itself into mystery just to justify maintaining conditions of service.
flying is no different.
Originally Posted by Dynasty Trash Hauler
Gnads, chris, cloudy etc - being a bit paranoid are we not.
Originally Posted by oicur12
I have not suggested that I have “no more to learn”. I do not for a second believe that I have no more “experience to gain”. From what part of my post you have gleaned such an impression
These three statements gave me the impression you have not been flying multi crew jet transport for very long or you are one of those pilots who like to dumb down our profession.
1: "the aircraft I fly is capable of CatIII landing in zero viz, let alone marginal weather"
I always used to get annoyed when another crew member said the aircraft could land itself to a visitor on the flight deck. Flippant and inaccurate. Have you ever experienced x-winds or turbulence in excess of that which the autopilot in the aircraft you fly could safely handle?
2: "what exactly do you "do" with reserve fuel that the FMC doesn't calculate for you?"
With experience you learn that the FMC cannot predict for example when an aircraft might blow a tire closing the airport you wanted to land at or the weather forecasters got it completely wrong and you now need an alternate.
3: "I have never met an airline pilot who has been subject to a bomb threat"
I have. Stick around a little longer and I'll bet you do.
I'm sure you've heard the old adage
"There are old pilots and bold pilots but none that are old and bold"
Hmmmm
