Geoff Dixon Writes To 2600 Pilots, Threatens Union Payment Cuts
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Is it just me or is all this crap sounding like a certain scene from "Life of Brian",where we're talking about Reg changing his name to Loretta. For God's sake either down tools or put up with the sh*t Dixon's dishing out.You are the keepers of your own destiny. Don't blame history or other groups for your problems. Do the f*ck something about it or get out of Dodge!!
Join Date: Sep 2001
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All this cr@p about the new IR laws coming into effect soon. Most people are scared of something they don't even understand...bit like being afraid of your own shadow. Its all scare tactics for pathetic management to use against the frightened and the ignorant worker.
Everyone just needs to take a weeks STRESS leave; can't be helped if it all occurs at the same time, after all GD is hitting everyone with some pretty stressful stuff right about now.
Put the Fleet on the Ground!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just don't Bloody RESIGN.
Everyone just needs to take a weeks STRESS leave; can't be helped if it all occurs at the same time, after all GD is hitting everyone with some pretty stressful stuff right about now.
Put the Fleet on the Ground!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just don't Bloody RESIGN.
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lower lobe, I'm not suggesting that pilots are overpaid, but the guy paying them IS!!!!! That's what matters.
And if he was paying you halfwhat you 're being paid now, he'dstill think you were overpaid. It's that simple. He will always want you for ,less.
What Dixon is paid is irrelevant. Yes it is obscene, but you don't control it, the board does. Don't fall into the trapof attemptingto compare you and him because there is no comparison.
QFInsider, it seems you are treating this Sun Tsu th ing like abible taking everything it says literally. There is no manual for what Dixon is trying to put Qantas pilots through, but you can bet he's thought it out well.
And don't believe Dixon when he says he would prefer to increase productivity than lower wages. It wasn 't so long ago he was on record as having said he was happy withpilots ' productivity. Maybe he's read Sun Tsu as well; it must say in there somewhere "confuse the enemy'.
And if he was paying you halfwhat you 're being paid now, he'dstill think you were overpaid. It's that simple. He will always want you for ,less.
What Dixon is paid is irrelevant. Yes it is obscene, but you don't control it, the board does. Don't fall into the trapof attemptingto compare you and him because there is no comparison.
QFInsider, it seems you are treating this Sun Tsu th ing like abible taking everything it says literally. There is no manual for what Dixon is trying to put Qantas pilots through, but you can bet he's thought it out well.
And don't believe Dixon when he says he would prefer to increase productivity than lower wages. It wasn 't so long ago he was on record as having said he was happy withpilots ' productivity. Maybe he's read Sun Tsu as well; it must say in there somewhere "confuse the enemy'.
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Binoculars
Just Binos
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Mackay, Australia
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Posts: 3,298 Quote:
I don’t have to like it or like people who condone Darths actions especially when some of them would not know the difference between an altimeter and a coffee machine.
Oh dear, lowerlobe, you really are more intent on shooting the messenger than hearing the message, aren't you? Several have tried, it appears all have failed. I'll try one more time. Nobody here is condoning the situation, nobody. And it simply doesn't matter what you are angry at, difficult as it may be for you to accept that.
Think what you like about me, it's irrelevant. Your fellow pilots and people who know the danger signs because they've been there before are trying to get you to see commonsense, but you are simply too angry and wrapped up in your own situation to see it.
There are no Dixon supporters here from what I can see, you are simply flailing at windmills in your anger, and I say again that until you can step back and look dispassionately at the big picture without referencing it to the way you want things to be, or stay, you are going to be no help to your own side in the upcoming fight
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I've re-posted Binoculars' statements here because he is CORRECT!
Forget what GD is paid, forget what YOU paid to get where you are, forget how skilled you are (others are also) and forget the industry as it has been until now.
THE WORLD HAS CHANGED. AND YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDES AND APPROACH IF YOU ARE TO HAVE ANY CHANCE IN THIS COMING BATTLE BEING INSTIGATED BY GD. LEARN FROM THE PAST - it's only 16.5 years ago!
Just Binos
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Mackay, Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 3,298 Quote:
I don’t have to like it or like people who condone Darths actions especially when some of them would not know the difference between an altimeter and a coffee machine.
Oh dear, lowerlobe, you really are more intent on shooting the messenger than hearing the message, aren't you? Several have tried, it appears all have failed. I'll try one more time. Nobody here is condoning the situation, nobody. And it simply doesn't matter what you are angry at, difficult as it may be for you to accept that.
Think what you like about me, it's irrelevant. Your fellow pilots and people who know the danger signs because they've been there before are trying to get you to see commonsense, but you are simply too angry and wrapped up in your own situation to see it.
There are no Dixon supporters here from what I can see, you are simply flailing at windmills in your anger, and I say again that until you can step back and look dispassionately at the big picture without referencing it to the way you want things to be, or stay, you are going to be no help to your own side in the upcoming fight
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I've re-posted Binoculars' statements here because he is CORRECT!
Forget what GD is paid, forget what YOU paid to get where you are, forget how skilled you are (others are also) and forget the industry as it has been until now.
THE WORLD HAS CHANGED. AND YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDES AND APPROACH IF YOU ARE TO HAVE ANY CHANCE IN THIS COMING BATTLE BEING INSTIGATED BY GD. LEARN FROM THE PAST - it's only 16.5 years ago!
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Is $140,000pa for a back seat driver reasonable? Apart from carrying the 'legal responsibility' card, what do these roles actually do for $100,000pa apart from taking drinks orders and filling out a nav log? You may not like to admit it, but that is reality.
then Thats when i would have the crew be as paid as much as they deserve! its not the filling out of Navlogs, its how they handle and keep control of an aircraft when the ****e really hits the fan! sadly a more likely occurence now with the thought of Outsourced deeper maintainence on the cards!
i know QF have tough criteria required to be met before getting a front seat job, but i would rather prefer a real pilot up there with the training required to save my sorry Pax arse when things turn pearshaped, Just watch Memphis Bell, in particular the scene when cruising through broken cloud, and they emerge to find themselves only a few feet behind and below another aircraft and looking at a definate collision within seconds..... which pilot would you have flying the aircraft? the cool well trained capatain? who menouvers the aircraft to safety, of the other pilot who ****es himself, screams then hides below the panel????
Last edited by Ultralights; 17th Mar 2006 at 21:11.
Given that a number of Qantas direct competitors (Singapore Airlines for example) operate with a crew of 2 captains, 1 FO and 1 SO on longhaul flights, Qantas crews are already offering substantial efficiences. If you were to assume that pay rates between the two airlines are the same (simpy for comparisions sake) that would mean that the Singapore crew cost their company something along the lines of $300K + $300K + $240K + $120K = $960K whereas the Qantas figure would be something similar to $300K + $240K + $120K + $120K = $780K. When you factor in that there are a number of Second officers who have hit their 900 hour stick limit in recent times, there appear to be arguments that SO's are actually quite productive & provide the company substantial savings.
Granted, these are only round numbers, but demonstrate the marked savings that Qantas enjoy by crewing their aircraft in this manner. Of course, the beancounters choose to ignore this; At the recent roadshows they used a slide comparing Captain pay rates between Qantas & various competitors - and quickly changed the topic when the topic of using SO's/FO's in the above scenario was raised by the audience.
Typical... So - rather than banging on about how much SO's get paid for doing 'nothing', why don't people instead lament the fact that there are probably hundreds of pilots at Qantas who are effectively fulfilling the role of FO yet receive only 60% of the compensation for doing so...
Granted, these are only round numbers, but demonstrate the marked savings that Qantas enjoy by crewing their aircraft in this manner. Of course, the beancounters choose to ignore this; At the recent roadshows they used a slide comparing Captain pay rates between Qantas & various competitors - and quickly changed the topic when the topic of using SO's/FO's in the above scenario was raised by the audience.
Typical... So - rather than banging on about how much SO's get paid for doing 'nothing', why don't people instead lament the fact that there are probably hundreds of pilots at Qantas who are effectively fulfilling the role of FO yet receive only 60% of the compensation for doing so...
Ultralights, you clearly have never flown a 747. The reality (there's that word again) is that a 747 in 2006 is not a B17 in 1944. These days you have 5 seconds to disengage the autopilot and smoothly pitch the aircraft out of the red-zone. If you are approaching an imminent collision without TCAS, you're dead. Ace or not.
The assumption that increased renumeration directly relates to increased safety is a fallacy. It's nice to lament the legends of the past: the various United Airlines pilots dealing with simultaneous depressurisations and engine failures, but these days the travelling public don't really care whether you're an ex-RAAF fighter pilot, an ex-night freight punter, or an ex-tropical adventurer. They want a cheap ticket, a professional tone, and maybe an Aussie accent, but that's as far as it goes.
AIPA members should pay close attention to Kearnsey's farewell... "pilots do more damage to pilots than any employer could ever dream of doing". Like it or not, it's time to think laterally and creatively about workplace agreements and move towards the future, rather than hold onto an out-of-date past.
The assumption that increased renumeration directly relates to increased safety is a fallacy. It's nice to lament the legends of the past: the various United Airlines pilots dealing with simultaneous depressurisations and engine failures, but these days the travelling public don't really care whether you're an ex-RAAF fighter pilot, an ex-night freight punter, or an ex-tropical adventurer. They want a cheap ticket, a professional tone, and maybe an Aussie accent, but that's as far as it goes.
AIPA members should pay close attention to Kearnsey's farewell... "pilots do more damage to pilots than any employer could ever dream of doing". Like it or not, it's time to think laterally and creatively about workplace agreements and move towards the future, rather than hold onto an out-of-date past.
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I reckon if Mr. Dixon is reading this thread he would say to himself that it is all going to plan,as expected, the natives are fighting among themselves.He would then go out and enjoy his weekend.
Where I come from there is a large seaport, it employed over two hundred river pilots who were the highest paid pilots in the UK.The port authority wanted to negotiate new terms, the pilots gave them the finger because they were invincible nobody could do their job because the river was one of the hardest estuaries to navigate in the world.The port authority employed some experienced pilots from elsewhere, gave them a month,s training on the river. The local pilots went on strike new pilots came in by the score and the river is now run with less pilots at a fair rate of pay and less than ten of them are originals.
The message is that the river pilots were not invincible, the only people who believed the war stories about difficulty and accidents were the original river pilots themselves.
Don't fall into the same trap, change is coming and if you don't get involved you wil be worse off than if you didn't.
Where I come from there is a large seaport, it employed over two hundred river pilots who were the highest paid pilots in the UK.The port authority wanted to negotiate new terms, the pilots gave them the finger because they were invincible nobody could do their job because the river was one of the hardest estuaries to navigate in the world.The port authority employed some experienced pilots from elsewhere, gave them a month,s training on the river. The local pilots went on strike new pilots came in by the score and the river is now run with less pilots at a fair rate of pay and less than ten of them are originals.
The message is that the river pilots were not invincible, the only people who believed the war stories about difficulty and accidents were the original river pilots themselves.
Don't fall into the same trap, change is coming and if you don't get involved you wil be worse off than if you didn't.
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i think you have missed my point...
i am aware that a vast majority of Pax dont care about anything other than the price of the ticket, but there is still a large group of people who are scred ****less about flying, and fly QF in some security that the aircraft are well maintained and flown by the top crew that the company can find!
and yes, 99.999% of flight go wothout a hitch, but its that unforseen percentage when the skill of the crew WILL be the difference between being interviewd in the media, or your name chissled into a monument or headstone.
I know some will see my post as saying the higher paid = better pilot, but the perception of the public is that QF pilots, based around the company reputation, are the best in the industry.
i am aware that a vast majority of Pax dont care about anything other than the price of the ticket, but there is still a large group of people who are scred ****less about flying, and fly QF in some security that the aircraft are well maintained and flown by the top crew that the company can find!
and yes, 99.999% of flight go wothout a hitch, but its that unforseen percentage when the skill of the crew WILL be the difference between being interviewd in the media, or your name chissled into a monument or headstone.
I know some will see my post as saying the higher paid = better pilot, but the perception of the public is that QF pilots, based around the company reputation, are the best in the industry.
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And while Qantas says some senior pilots earning as much as $375,000 fly only 65 hours a month (and some even have second jobs), AIPA claims Qantas pilots' higher wages are based on the fact they work harder and smarter than their Virgin counterparts.
"Virgin Blue pilots are lucky to average 650 hours a year in the air ... That's where the difference [in salary] comes from," MrWoods said.
"Virgin Blue pilots are lucky to average 650 hours a year in the air ... That's where the difference [in salary] comes from," MrWoods said.
2003: 788.5 hrs
2004: 814.9 hrs
2005: 779.6 hrs
.... and I try to avoid as much work as possible!!!
Would someone please pass on to Capt. Woods to get his facts right before he slags of at Virgin pilots again!
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The assumption that increased renumeration directly relates to increased safety is a fallacy.
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Renumeration relates indirectly to safety; renumeration relates to engagement, which directly affects safety. Reducing this adversly affects motivation. Safety very much is a factor in this whole saga. Bean counters can't comprehend the task...
Grandpa Aerotart
Comparing QF crews to EK, SQ etc pay is also a fallacy....EK pilots do not pay 49% income tax...they pay none...SQ pay 15%.
If the UAE introduced similar personal income tax rates EK pilot's pay would skyrocket...if it didn't EK would be grounded within hours.
This is the single biggest difference between Oz airline and many foriegn airline's aircrew cost bases.
Imagine the total gross payroll difference across the entire airline when comparing QF,EK,SQ...but we'll fix it not by evening up the paying field but by taking it out of your hide!
On that subject where will the tax revenues come from when the Govt and management have driven everyone down to much lower paid jobs with commensurately lower tax?
Does anyone still wonder why the 'need' for GST?
If the UAE introduced similar personal income tax rates EK pilot's pay would skyrocket...if it didn't EK would be grounded within hours.
This is the single biggest difference between Oz airline and many foriegn airline's aircrew cost bases.
Imagine the total gross payroll difference across the entire airline when comparing QF,EK,SQ...but we'll fix it not by evening up the paying field but by taking it out of your hide!
On that subject where will the tax revenues come from when the Govt and management have driven everyone down to much lower paid jobs with commensurately lower tax?
Does anyone still wonder why the 'need' for GST?
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Firstly, it would seem to me that everyone is overreacting to Mr Dixon's note.
Secondly, throughout my years in aviation, all I see is pilots going against and fighting other Pilots. I never see the same antagonism in the medical or legal or any other professional body, yet Pilots go about change tactics in the same way the BLF would respond.
Perhaps its time to take a look around and act as the professionals that we all claim to be.
Secondly, throughout my years in aviation, all I see is pilots going against and fighting other Pilots. I never see the same antagonism in the medical or legal or any other professional body, yet Pilots go about change tactics in the same way the BLF would respond.
Perhaps its time to take a look around and act as the professionals that we all claim to be.
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Originally Posted by B A Lert
Take a look at the numbers at Jetstar, Virgin Blue, and in the case of Cabin Crew only, Australian Airlines. All of these people are working for a damned sight less than those at Qantas doing the same jobs. Your comments show just how much you, like many of your colleagues who live and work in a rarifed atmosphere where your every whim is satisfied, are out of touch with reality.
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Impartial executives
Is it really true that qantas pays $5000,000 to the executives of the pilots union???
Is this bribery??
Can theses "executives" be expected to be impartial in their dealins with the company??
Oh well, I guess we do live in the land of the underarm bowlers.
We are pretyy good at selling wheat too.
Is this bribery??
Can theses "executives" be expected to be impartial in their dealins with the company??
Oh well, I guess we do live in the land of the underarm bowlers.
We are pretyy good at selling wheat too.
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Yep, but it's not bribery. The short story is the $500,000 has been negotiated into the contract over the past 30+ years at the expense of pay rises and conditions. Think of it as cutting out the middle man. Instead of Qantas giving the money to the pilots who then pay the union, the company gives it direct to AIPA.
As for impartiality, I guess Qantas reneging on this agreement because they don't like the direction the union is heading is a pretty good indicator they have stayed impartial.
As for impartiality, I guess Qantas reneging on this agreement because they don't like the direction the union is heading is a pretty good indicator they have stayed impartial.