Geoff Dixon Writes To 2600 Pilots, Threatens Union Payment Cuts
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The fact is, QF Pilots feel severely undervalued because management treat them as a resource which can be easily replaced by others, possibly at a cheaper rate...
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Datum,
THAT is the manner in which pilots are treated by nearly ALL operators these days. It's sad but "them's the facts." Accept the fact that it's a case of THEM Vs YOU.
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Like I said before - GET A GRIP and show some LEADERSHIP
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Leadership IS being shown - by management against pilots! And management will always (in this case) have the support of the new IR laws and control of the media.
Somehow, you guys & gals have got to put your heads together and fight smarter. Forget PR, media and every other tactic that failed in '89.
Max,
I AM friendly in this case - but also realistic.
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Datum,
THAT is the manner in which pilots are treated by nearly ALL operators these days. It's sad but "them's the facts." Accept the fact that it's a case of THEM Vs YOU.
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Like I said before - GET A GRIP and show some LEADERSHIP
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Leadership IS being shown - by management against pilots! And management will always (in this case) have the support of the new IR laws and control of the media.
Somehow, you guys & gals have got to put your heads together and fight smarter. Forget PR, media and every other tactic that failed in '89.
Max,
I AM friendly in this case - but also realistic.
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Animalclub,
The below item in today's Australian supports your post. Still no reason for the troops not to be prepared for the worst case scenario, however.
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Mr Brown said the airline was due to renegotiate an enterprise agreement with pilots at the end of this year and was likely to seek productivity improvements rather than wage cuts.
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The below item in today's Australian supports your post. Still no reason for the troops not to be prepared for the worst case scenario, however.
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Mr Brown said the airline was due to renegotiate an enterprise agreement with pilots at the end of this year and was likely to seek productivity improvements rather than wage cuts.
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Hmm
Fighting head on we will lose. We are totally dispensible
The IR laws will ensure that.
Flying the contract, withdrawing goodwill and costing them more money puts budgetary pressure on management, something they have very little of(other than for bonus purposes)
Sun Tzu: Be extremely subtle, to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious to the point of soundlessness.
Old but true. If there is no form, the fight can't happen. Dixon wants to provoke something, until we have an advantage best to irritate without being individually identifiable. QAR's will be checked, threats have been made to certain union executives. A directive from AIPA that we will no longer speak to management without legal representation will reduce harassment of the individual.
The IR laws will ensure that.
Flying the contract, withdrawing goodwill and costing them more money puts budgetary pressure on management, something they have very little of(other than for bonus purposes)
Sun Tzu: Be extremely subtle, to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious to the point of soundlessness.
Old but true. If there is no form, the fight can't happen. Dixon wants to provoke something, until we have an advantage best to irritate without being individually identifiable. QAR's will be checked, threats have been made to certain union executives. A directive from AIPA that we will no longer speak to management without legal representation will reduce harassment of the individual.
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“like many of your colleagues who live and work in a rarifed atmosphere where your every whim is satisfied, are out of touch with reality. ”
This quote from BALERT shows exactly the problem with management and others that do not fly and that is basically jealousy…..they believe that crew are spoilt and get everything they wish for………basically tall poppy syndrome.
“People will listen if they are faced with facts and logic but a response embedded with insults, innuendo and nonsense based on incorrect assumptions will only reinforce the views of the 'reasonable man'.
Can we get some objectivity back into the discussion or have the thread locked?”
B A Lert will be on to the moderator by now asking for this thread to be banned because he does not understand or respect other view points and people that have the temerity to criticize him.He has on more than one occasion resorted to exactly the same methods as he accuses others of.
If Darth set an example of restraint when it comes to remuneration then other sections of Qantas would as well but it is the exact opposite that is occurring.
You cannot expect groups within the organization to exercise restraint when you have just given yourself a 167% pay rise in the previous financial year and earn more than the CEO’s of SIA,BA and Cathay especially when the CEO’s of those airlines have bigger fleets to manage.
People like B A LERT will never admit to this contradiction in policy especially when it is they that benefit financially through bonus’s when others have their wages and conditions reduced or slashed.
B A LERT continues to avoid the question of where he works and does he think his job could be done by someone else for less.
This quote from BALERT shows exactly the problem with management and others that do not fly and that is basically jealousy…..they believe that crew are spoilt and get everything they wish for………basically tall poppy syndrome.
“People will listen if they are faced with facts and logic but a response embedded with insults, innuendo and nonsense based on incorrect assumptions will only reinforce the views of the 'reasonable man'.
Can we get some objectivity back into the discussion or have the thread locked?”
B A Lert will be on to the moderator by now asking for this thread to be banned because he does not understand or respect other view points and people that have the temerity to criticize him.He has on more than one occasion resorted to exactly the same methods as he accuses others of.
If Darth set an example of restraint when it comes to remuneration then other sections of Qantas would as well but it is the exact opposite that is occurring.
You cannot expect groups within the organization to exercise restraint when you have just given yourself a 167% pay rise in the previous financial year and earn more than the CEO’s of SIA,BA and Cathay especially when the CEO’s of those airlines have bigger fleets to manage.
People like B A LERT will never admit to this contradiction in policy especially when it is they that benefit financially through bonus’s when others have their wages and conditions reduced or slashed.
B A LERT continues to avoid the question of where he works and does he think his job could be done by someone else for less.
CEOs are not pilots. Geoff gets paid a lot, and most of the workers don't like it, but its the Board and the shareholders that decide what to pay him, not you.
It doesn't matter whether BALert is a pencil pusher or not, the comments made are facts. Lowerlobe, you've tried to dismiss the statements as irrelevant because BALert doesn't sound like a pilot... so what? That doesn't remove their truth. It is time you and the rest started waking up to reality.
Pilots are a resource. We may not like to be labelled as such as it takes away some perceived dignitiy, but that doesn't change the way employers regard employees anywhere in the world.
Pilots are in exactly the same boat as the Flight Attendants and the Engineers. The significant decisions Qantas made with regard to these two groups were based on the same rationale that Geoff will probably use on the pilots. Is over $70,000pa for a junior sandwich maker reasonable? Is $140,000pa for a back seat driver reasonable? Apart from carrying the 'legal responsibility' card, what do these roles actually do for $100,000pa apart from taking drinks orders and filling out a nav log? You may not like to admit it, but that is reality.
The sooner the pilot body starts to accept reality, the sooner some positive work can be done on your own sustainable futures program.
It doesn't matter whether BALert is a pencil pusher or not, the comments made are facts. Lowerlobe, you've tried to dismiss the statements as irrelevant because BALert doesn't sound like a pilot... so what? That doesn't remove their truth. It is time you and the rest started waking up to reality.
Pilots are a resource. We may not like to be labelled as such as it takes away some perceived dignitiy, but that doesn't change the way employers regard employees anywhere in the world.
Pilots are in exactly the same boat as the Flight Attendants and the Engineers. The significant decisions Qantas made with regard to these two groups were based on the same rationale that Geoff will probably use on the pilots. Is over $70,000pa for a junior sandwich maker reasonable? Is $140,000pa for a back seat driver reasonable? Apart from carrying the 'legal responsibility' card, what do these roles actually do for $100,000pa apart from taking drinks orders and filling out a nav log? You may not like to admit it, but that is reality.
The sooner the pilot body starts to accept reality, the sooner some positive work can be done on your own sustainable futures program.
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LTBC....Darth pays himself 5 times what the CEO of SIA gets and who has a bigger fleet to manage and darth assigns himself the pay and actioned by the board not the sharholders...
BALERTS comments are irrelevant because they do not adress the issue of a bench mark for most QF workers on one hand being the cheapest you can get and the other benchmark for the corporate club being one of the most expensive especially in terms of fleet size.
If you want to have credibility then you have to behave in a fashion that creates it..Thats what you and BALERT have not addressed..
I'm glad you mentioned Darths sustainable future and Australian employee minimising program becasue that is exactly what it is
Emplyoyees of an organisation are not a resource or a liability they are an asset which Darth is ignoring
By the way,you are not a J* techie are you?..I wonder.....because your idea of reality is different to others
the REALITY is that the J* guys and girls blinked first in a game of chicken and darth has won again
LTBC..will you tell us what fleet you are on and will BALERT tell us where he works?....some how I doubt it
BALERTS comments are irrelevant because they do not adress the issue of a bench mark for most QF workers on one hand being the cheapest you can get and the other benchmark for the corporate club being one of the most expensive especially in terms of fleet size.
If you want to have credibility then you have to behave in a fashion that creates it..Thats what you and BALERT have not addressed..
I'm glad you mentioned Darths sustainable future and Australian employee minimising program becasue that is exactly what it is
Emplyoyees of an organisation are not a resource or a liability they are an asset which Darth is ignoring
By the way,you are not a J* techie are you?..I wonder.....because your idea of reality is different to others
the REALITY is that the J* guys and girls blinked first in a game of chicken and darth has won again
LTBC..will you tell us what fleet you are on and will BALERT tell us where he works?....some how I doubt it
Last edited by lowerlobe; 17th Mar 2006 at 04:51.
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Tsun Tsu....the art of war. All very well until you're under fire.
Ever heard this: When you're up to your ar$e in alligators it's very difficult to remember that your original aim was to drain the awamp.
Pilots are trained to fly aeroplanes, deal with emergencies, manage crises, and the listgoes on, but when called on to mount an
industrial campaign they are hopelesss. and events of many years ago proved that.
I'll say it again Qantas pilots. Good luck. You're going to need it and I'm on your sidefor what that'sworth.
Can't remember who said he's not envious of Qantas pilots, but he came in for a bit of flak furtherup the page. Mayhave been BALert.
Well I' ve been airlineflying for 30 years, short haul, long haul and in between haul, and let me say I'm not envious of Qantas pilots or any other pilots. This is just a job as any job becomes.
I don't need to put a uniform on and walkdown a concourse to feelgood about myself. I can t wait for retirement in a couple of years. Simulators, BOC, hosties, I'm over it all.
I think this is a $hit of a lifestyle and wouldn't encourage any youngguy to take it up. It's just too difficutl to keep a family together and live a normal life
Let me say agin; Qantas pilots be very careful because the man is after you. I hopehe doesn't do a jobon you, but if you think you on the game, better think again. Dixon is months ahead in his tactical war.
lowerlobe, you're not listening to what others are saying, namely, Dixson doesn'tcare if h e has value for money or not, whether you're the safest, best, cheapest, etc., he wants you for less.
Ever heard this: When you're up to your ar$e in alligators it's very difficult to remember that your original aim was to drain the awamp.
Pilots are trained to fly aeroplanes, deal with emergencies, manage crises, and the listgoes on, but when called on to mount an
industrial campaign they are hopelesss. and events of many years ago proved that.
I'll say it again Qantas pilots. Good luck. You're going to need it and I'm on your sidefor what that'sworth.
Can't remember who said he's not envious of Qantas pilots, but he came in for a bit of flak furtherup the page. Mayhave been BALert.
Well I' ve been airlineflying for 30 years, short haul, long haul and in between haul, and let me say I'm not envious of Qantas pilots or any other pilots. This is just a job as any job becomes.
I don't need to put a uniform on and walkdown a concourse to feelgood about myself. I can t wait for retirement in a couple of years. Simulators, BOC, hosties, I'm over it all.
I think this is a $hit of a lifestyle and wouldn't encourage any youngguy to take it up. It's just too difficutl to keep a family together and live a normal life
Let me say agin; Qantas pilots be very careful because the man is after you. I hopehe doesn't do a jobon you, but if you think you on the game, better think again. Dixon is months ahead in his tactical war.
lowerlobe, you're not listening to what others are saying, namely, Dixson doesn'tcare if h e has value for money or not, whether you're the safest, best, cheapest, etc., he wants you for less.
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My enemies' enemies shall become my allies
My enemies' enemies aren't necessarily my allies.
Jetstar have come along and set a new benchmark, and guess what? The @rsehole GD wants to use it ALREADY!
You proud of yourselves over there in J* fellas? We warned you. Any chance of progressing your case for wage increase has just flashed by you, with a blinding brilliance.
Idiots.
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Relax737..
You would have to be in a coma to not know what Darth is trying to do however I don’t have to like it or like people who condone Darths actions especially when some of them would not know the difference between an altimeter and a coffee machine.
I was merely pointing out the discrepancy in Darths slash and burn philosophy to his acceptance of his own pay packet and others in the corporate club
J* tech crew acceptance of his offer has not only affected QF mainline tech crew but all others employed by Darth in the QF group as well and that is something that J* crew have not thought of…
If he can get a cruise F/O for $45000 then what is going to offer cabin crew and others that will work for J*International
You would have to be in a coma to not know what Darth is trying to do however I don’t have to like it or like people who condone Darths actions especially when some of them would not know the difference between an altimeter and a coffee machine.
I was merely pointing out the discrepancy in Darths slash and burn philosophy to his acceptance of his own pay packet and others in the corporate club
J* tech crew acceptance of his offer has not only affected QF mainline tech crew but all others employed by Darth in the QF group as well and that is something that J* crew have not thought of…
If he can get a cruise F/O for $45000 then what is going to offer cabin crew and others that will work for J*International
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You got it in one..
podbreak
I have never in my years in and watching business/ finance before QF, heard of an executive who publicly belates his workforce...
As i continue to say if we simply fly the contract he will look increasingly stupid...
A330 maintenance offshore(today), last week's announcment and now this.....
The public may be in-different to our plight, but they are scared of workchoices...Sunfish had it right a concerted campaign bringing together the attack on the australianness of the "icon"
Formless resistence that generates additional cost pressure..we can outlast him and give him nothing to aim at, flying the contract to the letter of the law
podbreak
I have never in my years in and watching business/ finance before QF, heard of an executive who publicly belates his workforce...
As i continue to say if we simply fly the contract he will look increasingly stupid...
A330 maintenance offshore(today), last week's announcment and now this.....
The public may be in-different to our plight, but they are scared of workchoices...Sunfish had it right a concerted campaign bringing together the attack on the australianness of the "icon"
Formless resistence that generates additional cost pressure..we can outlast him and give him nothing to aim at, flying the contract to the letter of the law
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I don’t have to like it or like people who condone Darths actions especially when some of them would not know the difference between an altimeter and a coffee machine.
Think what you like about me, it's irrelevant. Your fellow pilots and people who know the danger signs because they've been there before are trying to get you to see commonsense, but you are simply too angry and wrapped up in your own situation to see it.
There are no Dixon supporters here from what I can see, you are simply flailing at windmills in your anger, and I say again that until you can step back and look dispassionately at the big picture without referencing it to the way you want things to be, or stay, you are going to be no help to your own side in the upcoming fight.
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Dear Dear Binoculars..
I have never read 3 paragraphs about nothing until now…you must be management
I’m not angry at all in fact quite the opposite I’m just curious reading posts from people who think that other people are overpaid and have never done that persons job but know everything.
This is all about the “me” generation and Darth is appealing to them and succeeding
I have never read 3 paragraphs about nothing until now…you must be management
I’m not angry at all in fact quite the opposite I’m just curious reading posts from people who think that other people are overpaid and have never done that persons job but know everything.
This is all about the “me” generation and Darth is appealing to them and succeeding
Oh come on lowerlobe, BALert and I are no more likely to tell the world where we come from than you are to sign a post with your real name. That's the beauty of Pprune isn't it? However, you don't have to stress about applying the Jetstar brush to make yourself feel better about my point of view.
It's time for mainline pilots to get their heads out of the sand and start thinking of working with Dixon rather than whining about how protected the industry used to be.
It's time for mainline pilots to get their heads out of the sand and start thinking of working with Dixon rather than whining about how protected the industry used to be.
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OK so now we can dispense with that question as I imagine we can all guess who you work for..but
Now we are talking really naïve…can you imagine trying to talk and work with Darth …Not all that long ago a few other naïve people thought you could negotiate with old Adolf as well but we all know how that story finished…
As I said in my previous post this is the “me” generation and old Darth is making the most of it….sad really
Now we are talking really naïve…can you imagine trying to talk and work with Darth …Not all that long ago a few other naïve people thought you could negotiate with old Adolf as well but we all know how that story finished…
As I said in my previous post this is the “me” generation and old Darth is making the most of it….sad really
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Management? Try checking profiles before you blindly accuse everyone of being the enemy.
Yes, it is.
Yes. He is.
Yes, it is.
It would seem that perhaps you are finally getting the hang of it now.
this is the “me” generation....
and old Darth is making the most of it….
sad really.....
It would seem that perhaps you are finally getting the hang of it now.