Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court

[ys120fz]

Further to the last, it occurs to me that all the Jet* pilots I talk to are happy with their lot.

The dissention is coming from outside, not within. Why? One would be justified in asking.

It appears that they think they may be next in line for the chop of salary and conditions, and that could well be the case.

Are they accusing Jet* pilots of undermining the established salary and conditions? It would appear so.

Well if that's the case, you'd better get your a$$es down to the Kew home (may have now moved to Toorak) of the former CP of Virgin, because he's the one who sold out pilots in Australia for his own greedy ends, which I believe could have been up to A$20 million in shares. He is the one who started the rot for pilots in Australia, no other.

[Keg]

vs, when I checked out as an F/O on the 767 life was great. I was in the front seat, heaps of flying, great aircraft, etc. It took a couple of years before the gloss of 9-10 days off per month at home wore off but wear off it did. So sure, most of the warnings are coming from the outside- from people who have done the type of flying that J* will be doing and have done it on conditions that were suited to it and can see the massive pot hole that J* pilots are going to find themselves in within a couple of years.

It's at that time that perhaps they won't be as 'happy with their lot' as they are currently. The light at the end of the tunnel may well be an on coming train.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Massive pot hole indeed.

Chimbu, the pay rate on the B1900 notwithstanding, anyone can see that the JPC has brokered a deal that, forever more, locks J* pilots out of further pay rises for different types.

I just find this amazing that anyone would vote for it. But they did, at a 50% discount to the going rate?!!?

J* gets the A380? The management line WILL be; "You signed off on the variation... no pay rise!!"

J* gets the B777? "you signed off on the variation... no pay rise!!"

J* gets ANY larger aircraft in the future?? "you signed off on the variation... no pay rise!!!"

Or do you guys think that AJ or GD will willingly give you more money when they have an binding contract that says they don't have to?

When Rick H has gone to his management job, and the rest of you are falling asleep at 4.00am with ZERO prospect of advancing your situation barring CPI increases, don't say you weren't warned.

[Casper]

Well if that's the case, you'd better get your a$$es down to the Kew home (may have now moved to Toorak) of the former CP of Virgin, because he's the one who sold out pilots in Australia for his own greedy ends, which I believe could have been up to A$20 million in shares. He is the one who started the rot for pilots in Australia, no other.
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ys120fz,

You must be one sick (and misguided) little vegemite!

[ur2]

ys120fz,
You have hit the nail right on the head, well said !

[ys120fz]

Casper, sick for telling it how it is??? Who's sick here? It is fact that the CP of Vrigin sold out pilots to satisfy his own greed. If he had told Branson that the going rate was the same as QF, then it would have been paid. They started the rot by flying B737-300's for less than half the rate QF were doing it for. End of story!!

Thanks UR2. I know I have it right.

Keg, if somebody had told you that when you went on the 767 you would be spending only 9-10 days at home a month, would you have refused it? I bet you wouldn't have. So why bother telling these guys; let them find out for themselves. They are big boys and girls and must live with their decisions. Do you think that if somebody told a GA pilot he would only be at home for 5 days a month if he joined Qantas, that he wouldn't join? If you do, you live in a blur of fantasy.

C of B, what has it to do with you or anybody else outside Jet* pilot group? They're adults, many from other airlines with some industrial savvy. They signed an agreement, and if it's going to cost them financially, well so be it. They signed, not you. I'm not about to tell any group, pilots or otherwise, that they've screwed up their industrial agreement.

They don't need prix like you poking them from time to time saying "I told you so".

Those of you who do that are $hitting yourselves for your own future. It's the start of the rot.

But if the QF union had given them membership when originally asked, (sorry, you're not really QF pilots fellas)the QF pilots could be resting a little better these nights.

[touchncloth]

Gee I guess that because an arrangement for representation could not be arranged before this means nothing can EVER be done in the future.
Mainline is DOOMED
Jetstar is DOOMED
Virgin is DOOMED
The Regionals, yes you guessed it, DOOMED
WE ARE ALL DOOMED

Hang on I have to go and slit my wrists
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ur2]

Keg,
OH DEAR, only 10 days off a month, you poor poor thing.
What about the EVA pilots, 8 or 9 days off a month and they use up 2.5 of those days to get home and back. Or the Dragon pilots, only 8 days / month or Vietnam Airlines 6 weeks on 2 weeks off, work that out. Ask any of the Sing Air Pilots too.
Do you think you may have been a little unproductive by any chance and that you have just been brought into line with the rest of the world, and are still better off ?

[OhSpareMe]

Here we go.......................
ur2 - I don't care what EVA or others do. Days off and home travel on them is their problem. And why would I want to talk with SING Air pilots? I don't care what they do either.
Dragon Air - not interested. Wouldn't worry me in the slightest if they had 20 days off a month. Good luck to them I would say.
Unproductive? I don't think so. In the last 5 years an increase of One Billion ASK's, profit every year, about 600 pilots hired, more aircraft - and that is just the Mainline operation.
Lets face it - the Mainline just have a better deal than you (whatever that is) and you seem to be jacked off about it. Get over it Sunshine.
And for you ys120fz - I don't care if the former CP of VB allegedly ripped off his oppos. Got stuff all to do with me.
Furthermore, there has been a standing invitation for quite a while for JETSTAR pilots to join AIPA. However,to date, only about 30 from the 250 odd have taken up that option. Guess they don't need AIPA hey?

[The Hooker Bear]

OhSpareMe,

Have a very close look at the essence of your post. You seem to be saying; "I don't care about anyone else but me", but then you imply that Jetstar pilots should have taken a different course of action in order to protect your conditions and those of the industry in general. So how is it that just because you're a genuine bona-fide Qantas Pilot (if I could emboss the words I've just typed in gold I would - really) you feel no responsibility at all to assist your peers achieve better conditions? Are you content to all let us "rot in hell" while you stay safe and warm upon your lofty perch? Do you always get others to fight your battles?

If the answer is "yes", perhaps then you and your colleagues might understand why you keep losing the war.

With regards to AIPA membership, you imply that even having the opportunity to join such a prestigious organisation should be the crowning achievement of any pilot's life - especially if that pilot was never "good enough" to join legitimately by virtue of being a genuine bona-fide Qantas Pilot.

Let me tell you why only 30 JQ pilots joined;

a) Because AIPA is openly opposed to the expansion of the company we work for.

b) Because the ARG in particular has only attempted to converse with us in order to promote the cause of the vast majority of its membership - Qantas Pilots - at our expense. Other than that we've never been acknowledged by the CoM (ask the CoM yourself why we've never been asked to pay a single premium, even after over 18 months as "members".)

c) Because those 30 pilots hoped to demonstrate faith that both of our pilot bodies could begin to work together. That faith has not been returned. See point (a). Why would anybody else join?

The fate of the aviation industry in Australia is portrayed as being in the hands of Jetstar's pilots alone - everyone else is a victim. How about you all stop being victims and start helping yourselves by helping everybody else.

"Got stuff all to do with me" just doesn't cut it anymore.

[any something else]

the writing is on the wall....

....cut to the chase.

J* is doing what should have been done long ago....bringing pilot wages back into line with other professions....the glamour and exclusivity was lost long ago.

...anyone who earns $150k ++ a year and still thinks they are on a bad wicket needs a reality check.

good luck to AIPA in their quest to secure more paying members in the future, it's going to be a hard task.

[OhSpareMe]

Hmmmm...........lets see now.

Have a very close look at the essence of your post. You seem to be saying; "I don't care about anyone else but me", but then you imply that Jetstar pilots should have taken a different course of action in order to protect your conditions and those of the industry in general. So how is it that just because you're a genuine bona-fide Qantas Pilot (if I could emboss the words I've just typed in gold I would - really) you feel no responsibility at all to assist your peers achieve better conditions? Are you content to all let us "rot in hell" while you stay safe and warm upon your lofty perch? Do you always get others to fight your battles?

errrr...........Jetstar pilots can negotiate whatever they want. They are not protecting anybodys conditions except their own. Am I also responsible for the conditions at Virgin Blue?

The fate of the aviation industry in Australia is portrayed as being in the hands of Jetstar's pilots alone - everyone else is a victim. How about you all stop being victims and start helping yourselves by helping everybody else.

That is your intepretation. You are entitled to that view. I don't share it. Like I said above - Jetstar are looking out for themselves and good on them. E

a) Because AIPA is openly opposed to the expansion of the company we work for.

And where would that policy have been expressed? (in writing please). Back it up with facts, because your statement runs counter to what I have read and heard from AIPA.

) Because the ARG in particular has only attempted to converse with us in order to promote the cause of the vast majority of its membership - Qantas Pilots - at our expense. Other than that we've never been acknowledged by the CoM (ask the CoM yourself why we've never been asked to pay a single premium, even after over 18 months as "members".)

Please explain how AIPA is promoting the cause at your expense? (18 months without paying a membership premium. Guess you are doing well on that front) I am up for 0.85% and probably some more.

c) Because those 30 pilots hoped to demonstrate faith that both of our pilot bodies could begin to work together. That faith has not been returned. See point (a). Why would anybody else join?

In what way were they demonstrating faith? Perhaps they saw it as a good move to join as individuals. Nobody is holding a gun to head and telling them to join. It is their prerogative to join if they so wish. I would prefer them to join and negotiate with AIPA but the fact is most of them haven't joined and that is OK with me. What I said before is that the offer is there for them to join. It is not a question of them 'not being good enough' If they wish to go their own way to so be it. No problem with that.

So Hooker Bear - what exactly would you like me to do for you?
Say a prayer? Lay asleep at night worrying about how you are -as you put it - rotting in hell?

The reality is that you work for one company, and I work for another. Each company has its own employment contract that the representatives of the employees (AIPA and JPC) separately negotitated.

I didn't know JETSTAR had a base in Khazakhstan?

[speeeedy]

Once and for all, can we just sort out this issue with the days off.

Chimbu might claim he can read a contract, I beg to differ.

Now read it (Slowly….if you must).

25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in 6 roster periods. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”

Where does it say that 9 (or 10) days off is the entitlement in EACH roster period?

If you are still having a problem reading it, lets do something really simple:
A roster period is a month, so lets replace the word “roster periods” with the word “months”,

So how does this read:

You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 Months and 10 rostered days off in 6 Months.


This is but a symptom of the problem with this EBA, it is one of about 15 specific clauses where wording is a real problem. So whilst the money is a huge issue, it is not the only issue.

Any award certified with these well known problems as well as hand written lines through a number of clauses is an embarrassment.

So Chimbu, contrary to what you have said, maybe the JPC (or at least 3 of them) are morons!

[ys120fz]

Ok, it seems we have quite a few people, some pilots, and even some QF pilots it seems, who feel it is their responsibility to point out the the Jet* pilots that their contract isn't as they think it should be.

Once again, I have a number of friends who fly for Jet* and they are not complaining.

Also once again, I must question the motives of those advice givers. Why bother?? Oh, so you feel it may impact on you somewhere down the track???

OK, I understand.

But would you be prepared to listen to the advice of Jet* pilots, and others, on what you should negotiate into or out of your contract at QF? I wouldn't think so.

Speeeeedy, if you were told whilst in GA, that if yu joined QF, you would be signatory to a contract that included a clause that you may be 'rostered for 9 days off in home base every six.seven.ten roster periods', would you still sign to join QF?? Answer honestly. You'd probably enquire of pilots at QF, and find that you were home for 10 days EVERY month, and then sign. The fact that the clause is there means that you can be thus rostered, but probably wouldn't be.

[Gnadenburg]

Well I know J* pilots who believe the EBA negotiations were as amateurish as the original Impulse jet operation. They still voted 'yes' because there was no alternative, a small payrise better than none and due experience levels, are hoping they are well placed for 330-787 flying. A few years down the track, they reckon they may take a look at what the expatriate market offers.

It would be foolish of the QF pilots to believe J* will not be used as a weapon against their conditions of service. There are pilots who have yet to join J*, who will promote the future undercutting of QF mainline at all costs, to secure career progression, or a payrise.

She's your ugly sister, and you're going to have to sleep with her!

Inbred looking emoticon!

[QFinsider]

The funny thing is history keeps repeating because everyone thinks they are smarter than all those that came before. Every kid thinks they are smarter than their parents. parents know the drill, kids can't believe how much the parents "seem" to learn in a few years, say between 16 and 25...

IMO let J* have it, if QF dont push to within an inch of the J* contract I will be suprised. Joyce did it at Ryan air with a smile....

If J* believe they can do it better than mainline so be it, it would be hard to believe sitting there in GA that things can get worse, but longhaul does grind you down.It did me.Longhaul ain't glamourous it is bloody tiring..The compensation is the Cash....or is that was cash in the case of J*

If in fact it is that J* manage to bring our conditions down it will only be when they have sufficient aircraft that they can lock us out of the building and fly the trunk routes with J* aicraft. In other words we will have lost control of the flying. Most of us younger blokes are a wake up to it. We also doubt anything that comes out of management mouthes. Bring it on we can bleed the company, they can bleed us. One thing is for sure if avian flu gets going, J* int is truly screwed-Our contract is a great deal more protection than theirs will be

[Datum]

ys120fz,

You show a concerning lack of understanding all things aviation...

Do you think corporate management personnel actually understand what FATIGUE (either ACUTE or CHRONIC) can do to a pilot's ability in the cockpit....Stop for a minute and think....why do successful and 'safe' airlines have established rostering/scheduling rules. They are in place to prohibit the 'system' from forcing pilots to work themselves into the ground. Remember International Operations are completely different to Domestic. These scheduling rules are in place because since the Wright Brothers people have learnt these lessons the hard way, that is with their LIVES....many accidents can be attributed to FATIGUE...

This is one of the problems now facing the aviation industry, especially LCC. Efficient verses Safe operations. A very very good reason to have operational experience within any Flight Operations department and for that matter, the corporate management level.

If the JPC have pushed this EBA through not understanding the possibilities this presents....they are IGNORANT. If however, they pushed this deal through, with the knowledge they should have....they are NEGLIGENT. Most impotantly, it is the responsibility of the Senior Pilots within any organisation (Airline or GA operation) to stand up for what is safe and fair...they MUST educate and guide their managers on what is safe and sustainable...it is their DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY...

I just hope, for the sake of all JETSTAR International pilots that AIPA can stop this deal dead in the water!

[ys120fz]

Noble sentiments indeed, Datum, but if you think the management gives a $hit about that stuff, think again. It's no different from CRM; the airline management mouths support, but really care no more about it than a tick in the CASA box. That's a fact.

Most companies to my knowledge use the CAO's or equivalent duty time limitations as their own limitations. I think the days of more restrictive work practices due to perceived fatigue, or sheer lack of interest are long gone, except perhaps with the dinosaur Qantas (I'm guessing here).

They would have a senior Captain flying a 747-400 earning less than the cleaners if they could, working harder, and wouldn't think twice about it.

Thank you for your observation that I know little about aviation. It seems you know even less about matters business.

I've yet to see an aviation manager prepared to be educated and guided by ANYBODY, let alone be educated and guided by a pilot, however senior. Get a grip on reality boy.

QF insider, be careful. I recall some years back in Australia, two airlines said just that. We can't lose they said. They'll have to lock us out they said. So the management did lock them out, and they did lose. Not everybody will hold the line, in fact very few will because they will still be gun shy over the '89 thing.

You are not irreplaceable!!! Don't ever think you are, because the day you start thinking that, you've become fodder for the management pigs.

Gnadenburg, that's exactly what will happen. Future Jet* recruits will be prepared to undercut the incumbents for employment, continuity, and promotion, but they're no different from any other group, pilots or otherwise. In my opinion, anybody who is holding a job in Australia would be insane to look at contract jobs, and come the time, most of those who say that is their intention, will reconsider.

Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Say Jet* pilots were being paid the same, or in excess of that being paid to QF pilots. Do youthink for a second that the QF pilots wouldn't be offering to do it even cheaper to get the
A380 flying, the 777's, etc. You bet they would.

I'm off flying for a few days.

[QFinsider]

Tsun Tsu...the art of war

I suggest you read it ys120fz

I would never walk into the killing zone. The IR laws will make strike action impossible, or almost so.
What I am talking about is simple. I can fly, my colleagues can fly. some of us posess tertiary qualifications the board could only hope for.
I can do their job, can they do mine? No one on the board can jump in and fly a 747-400 or a 737....

No matter what spin they put on it, we control the revenue. Sick leave, not answering phones, etc etc. There are plenty of ways to get a point across without walking into a kill zone.

Until all flight crew realise they can't survive without us, anymore than we survive without them we are screwed. It is a case of not playing to their strength....

[ys120fz]

QF INsider, with that attitude you're beaten already. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings for you.

You're missing afundamental point and that is not everybody, or even many will hold the line. Many will use it as an opportunity to leap frog their colleagues. It's human nature, unfortunately.

CX went through the sick leave, not answering the phone, going sick at out ports routine, but did it get the 49 sackees reinstated. Noooooo!

What you have to remember, and the AIPA forgot, or didn't know back in that year, is that tactically, the management is months, or even years, ahead of you in thinking. It pi$$es me off when I realize that too, but it's a fact. You and I may be pilots, but chiefs like Dixon, from the Wagga School of Economics, will eat you. You wouldn't know what hit you or where it came from.

They'll be ready, and Australians working overseas will stream back and do your job for you.

I'll be one.

Would you care to answer the question I posed in the penultimate paragraph of post # 58?? I'll read it when I arrive back.