Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: victoria
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"So..... no, management are not feeling the pain, just the drivers."
Spot on speedy, and the lower wages are for light attendants and others at JQ,
As a manager in the QF group you can be assured that unlike the pilots/flight attendants at JQ, AJ will be on a very similar salary to a manager like JB with similar roles/responsibilities,not 100000 less!!!
many JQ managers were transferred from QF, and im sure are still on QF pay rates!!!
Thats not to say that the reality of the new market may mean that QF pilots pay is too high and JQ closer to the "market" rate?
But if true,this concept is only applied to pilots/flight attendants not to management!!!
Spot on speedy, and the lower wages are for light attendants and others at JQ,
As a manager in the QF group you can be assured that unlike the pilots/flight attendants at JQ, AJ will be on a very similar salary to a manager like JB with similar roles/responsibilities,not 100000 less!!!
many JQ managers were transferred from QF, and im sure are still on QF pay rates!!!
Thats not to say that the reality of the new market may mean that QF pilots pay is too high and JQ closer to the "market" rate?
But if true,this concept is only applied to pilots/flight attendants not to management!!!
Granted 404 Titan.
However, it's never your Philpot mates that fill the seats, it's Oz or Kiwi enthusiasts. The familar GA induced mentality of, undercut, climb a rung, undercut and climb a rung. Trouble is, top of the ladder is fast approaching!
You can't be fare to EK either. Where is the logic of a VB or J* pilot leaving Australia, despite a "loose" Arabian promise of a 380 command, and having to draw on personal savings to survive. And that's after he has sold off his assets a few years earlier to pay for his 320/737 training.
These guys have got to be aviation enthusiasts- not professionals!
However, it's never your Philpot mates that fill the seats, it's Oz or Kiwi enthusiasts. The familar GA induced mentality of, undercut, climb a rung, undercut and climb a rung. Trouble is, top of the ladder is fast approaching!
You can't be fare to EK either. Where is the logic of a VB or J* pilot leaving Australia, despite a "loose" Arabian promise of a 380 command, and having to draw on personal savings to survive. And that's after he has sold off his assets a few years earlier to pay for his 320/737 training.
These guys have got to be aviation enthusiasts- not professionals!
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 3rd Mar 2006 at 03:44.
Gnadenburg
Almost all the guys that I know that have gone to EK have been lied to by management about commands and training roles and are sick to death with the rostering but non are struggling financially. That said do I think the EK package is good? No but it isn’t as bad as you may think either.
I agree the GA mentality is creeping into the airline environment. Most airlines in this region are after training captains and experienced captains and first officers not someone straight out of GA. They are finding it very difficult to find them on the packages they are offering which are woefully inadequate by any standards. One carrier here has just deferred again its start date because it can’t find enough pilots and can’t get any aircraft. Says a lot really doesn’t it?
Almost all the guys that I know that have gone to EK have been lied to by management about commands and training roles and are sick to death with the rostering but non are struggling financially. That said do I think the EK package is good? No but it isn’t as bad as you may think either.
I agree the GA mentality is creeping into the airline environment. Most airlines in this region are after training captains and experienced captains and first officers not someone straight out of GA. They are finding it very difficult to find them on the packages they are offering which are woefully inadequate by any standards. One carrier here has just deferred again its start date because it can’t find enough pilots and can’t get any aircraft. Says a lot really doesn’t it?
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OZ
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetstar EBA variation mentions Cruise Fo's and a salary of 60% of FO's salary. Will Jetstar be recruiting off the street for these positions, or is this the equivalent pay if you are rostered for cruise support duties only. If recruiting for these positions am I correct in saying it will cost you $30000 for the initial training to then earn about $53000?!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents,
The JQ pilot group is going to vote the International EBA amendment up!
Why? Because they trust their management's word. JG told them at start up that once the airline got going he would give them parity with DJ. Trust them.
Why not. There are a couple of questions that warrant thinking about.
1. LCC's by their very nature will have a lower cost structure than a legacy airline. Therefore we should expect the JQ rate for an A330 to be lower than QF. My humble math suggests the rate should be more like A320 plus 25%?
2. If JQ cannot cope with an A330 rate of A320 plus 25%, how viable is the business case? Should the JQ pilots be looking around? India needs pilots.
3. Why should the F/O's fly the A330 for A320 rates? Will there really be promotion for you? It will cost JQ to train you. Does the EBA discuss that terrible pilot word "seniority", or will the appointments be former AN mates first, then any hazelton lads (JG) and the externals who pay for their endorsements? Where and when will JQ F/O exercise their seniority, or don't you care? Are all captains going to the A330 in seniority order? If not, when can you expect to be given a go? Will you have to pay for your endorsement? Are you sure JQ is going to give it to you? Is that in writing, or is it on a verbal agreement form?
4. Have you asked AJ about AWA's? Have you got a clear answer or was it a little hazy? The LCC model would suggest AWA's is the right solution.
5. Are you sure about your accomodation and allowances OS?
6. What about crew rest on the all Y class aircraft? have your read the CAO requirements and are you sure they will be complied with?
7. Who is going to look after you if you have an incident / accident overseas? Maybe you should talk to AIPA or one of the QF1 crew.
8. Are your really safisfied that the JPC has got the best deal, or have they been "had", again, by Oldmeadow, JG and the leprechaun crying poor?
Some thoughts that should be going through your head!!!
The JQ pilot group is going to vote the International EBA amendment up!
Why? Because they trust their management's word. JG told them at start up that once the airline got going he would give them parity with DJ. Trust them.
Why not. There are a couple of questions that warrant thinking about.
1. LCC's by their very nature will have a lower cost structure than a legacy airline. Therefore we should expect the JQ rate for an A330 to be lower than QF. My humble math suggests the rate should be more like A320 plus 25%?
2. If JQ cannot cope with an A330 rate of A320 plus 25%, how viable is the business case? Should the JQ pilots be looking around? India needs pilots.
3. Why should the F/O's fly the A330 for A320 rates? Will there really be promotion for you? It will cost JQ to train you. Does the EBA discuss that terrible pilot word "seniority", or will the appointments be former AN mates first, then any hazelton lads (JG) and the externals who pay for their endorsements? Where and when will JQ F/O exercise their seniority, or don't you care? Are all captains going to the A330 in seniority order? If not, when can you expect to be given a go? Will you have to pay for your endorsement? Are you sure JQ is going to give it to you? Is that in writing, or is it on a verbal agreement form?
4. Have you asked AJ about AWA's? Have you got a clear answer or was it a little hazy? The LCC model would suggest AWA's is the right solution.
5. Are you sure about your accomodation and allowances OS?
6. What about crew rest on the all Y class aircraft? have your read the CAO requirements and are you sure they will be complied with?
7. Who is going to look after you if you have an incident / accident overseas? Maybe you should talk to AIPA or one of the QF1 crew.
8. Are your really safisfied that the JPC has got the best deal, or have they been "had", again, by Oldmeadow, JG and the leprechaun crying poor?
Some thoughts that should be going through your head!!!
Last edited by Lagrange; 3rd Mar 2006 at 05:54. Reason: typo
Aircraft,
Yes yes yes you made your point some posts ago. And you quoted me incorrectly.
Baxter,
Read the post above yours. If Braz and other drivers are on poor conditions, then at least they can aspire to the bigger jets/outfits which pay more (provided the JQ guys get a reasonable deal). BTW, NJS have scrapped the 30k pay-for-your-endorsement. You know why? Because they aren't getting the people they need. They are bypassing NJS to go to other bigger operators. That is the effect that pay deals like the one the JQ pilots will vote on have on G/A. The whole industry lifts. Perhaps not at the bottom, but up a bit, it does.
Yes yes yes you made your point some posts ago. And you quoted me incorrectly.
Baxter,
From an outsider looking in, do you think that whatever the outcome of the Jet* vote, that will have flow on effects to the regional ops ie D8, Braz, saab, etc.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all of you who feel that the Jetstar EBA variation is an attack on your pay and T & C's, there is something you can do about it.Instead of expecting the Jetstar crew to stand up for you, why don't you all take the initiative and do something about it.I suggest you all down tools this weekend to support a rejection of this terrible document.If this happens I am sure the Jetstar crews will support you by voting NO!
Before you dismiss this idea as ridiculous (which it is), Just think, this is exactly what you expect the Jetstar crews to do for you.
How does that saying go "walk a mile in someone elses shoes".
Before you dismiss this idea as ridiculous (which it is), Just think, this is exactly what you expect the Jetstar crews to do for you.
How does that saying go "walk a mile in someone elses shoes".
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"this is exactly what you expect the Jetstar crews to do for you."
Hardly. The J* crews have full-time jobs flying A320's around. There is no pressure on them from that front at all.
All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession.
Hardly. The J* crews have full-time jobs flying A320's around. There is no pressure on them from that front at all.
All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jobs are available in India for experienced Captains endorsed on A330 for US$18k per month! QF mainline 737 training Captains are interviewing for jobs there on leave without pay as well for around US$13k per month. If so many guys are out there for Jetstar Int jobs why do the Indians need to offer so many TAX FREE Dollars??
The deal offered here is Crap!
Big Jan, some of us are prepared to do that but ALL must do it.
The deal offered here is Crap!
Big Jan, some of us are prepared to do that but ALL must do it.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by The_Cutest_of_Borg
"this is exactly what you expect the Jetstar crews to do for you."
Hardly. The J* crews have full-time jobs flying A320's around. There is no pressure on them from that front at all.
All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession.
Hardly. The J* crews have full-time jobs flying A320's around. There is no pressure on them from that front at all.
All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession.
Yeah, and if flying around A-320s on their existing agreement is so bad, who do they have to blame for that?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Down Under
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Tankengine
......If so many guys are out there for Jetstar Int jobs why do the Indians need to offer so many TAX FREE Dollars??
The deal offered here is Crap!....
The deal offered here is Crap!....
This does NOT mean our Terms and Conditions in Australia should get worse before they get any better.....
Australian Pilots are relatively highly trained and experienced aviators, whatever your particular background (GA, ADF, cadet..) Your valuable skills and knowledge should be rewarded....Therefore, don't sell yourselves out...
For the sake of all Professional Pilots in Australia and those wannabees - VOTE NO.
THIS DEAL IS CRAP!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession”
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that the main argument being put forth by QF pilots is that by accepting a lower pay scale, Jetstar pilots are setting a precedent that could have flow on effects to QF mainline. The concern being that QF management will then reduce the salary levels for mainline crew. Therefore, Jetstar pilots should simply out gun the company and refuse the offer until a more substantial package is on the table in order to protect the conditions of the mainline employees.
Lets take this step by step. Over to the QF pilots for the next exchange.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that the main argument being put forth by QF pilots is that by accepting a lower pay scale, Jetstar pilots are setting a precedent that could have flow on effects to QF mainline. The concern being that QF management will then reduce the salary levels for mainline crew. Therefore, Jetstar pilots should simply out gun the company and refuse the offer until a more substantial package is on the table in order to protect the conditions of the mainline employees.
Lets take this step by step. Over to the QF pilots for the next exchange.
Originally Posted by The Professor
“All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession”
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that the main argument being put forth by QF pilots is that by accepting a lower pay scale, Jetstar pilots are setting a precedent that could have flow on effects to QF mainline. The concern being that QF management will then reduce the salary levels for mainline crew. Therefore, Jetstar pilots should simply out gun the company and refuse the offer until a more substantial package is on the table in order to protect the conditions of the mainline employees.
Lets take this step by step. Over to the QF pilots for the next exchange.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that the main argument being put forth by QF pilots is that by accepting a lower pay scale, Jetstar pilots are setting a precedent that could have flow on effects to QF mainline. The concern being that QF management will then reduce the salary levels for mainline crew. Therefore, Jetstar pilots should simply out gun the company and refuse the offer until a more substantial package is on the table in order to protect the conditions of the mainline employees.
Lets take this step by step. Over to the QF pilots for the next exchange.
If you look at the wider picture, it is far from just QF pilots who will be affected.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Down Under
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One other point I would like to make....
The last QF Mainline Long Haul EBA - EBA 7 was voted up by just 58%....
Hardly a strong YES Vote....why...becuase it was a CRAP DEAL for junior pilots.
Again - many Senior Pilots voted YES because a number of the 'offsets' did not apply or directly affect them....Unfortunately, providing their junior pilots with POOR LEADERSHIP (a common trend in QF)....I understand a 3% increase in pay would mean quite a lot to a Senior Captain (when you fact Super into the equation etc).....But I bet when you started in QF the Senior guys looked out for you!
My point is that if EBA 7 had of been voted on by only the more Junior 50% of Long Haul Pilots it would have been voted down convincingly.....
Clearly, the current JETSTAR proposal may possibly reward a very lucky few at the top (even then the deal is still CRAP)....
However, for most, especially the more junior JETSTAR Pilots and those waiting to join...this deal is undeniably and completely unsatisfactory...
Like most of the Junior QF Mainline Long Haul Pilots did in EBA 7- VOTE NO and stick it to management. This deal is CRAP and they know it!
The last QF Mainline Long Haul EBA - EBA 7 was voted up by just 58%....
Hardly a strong YES Vote....why...becuase it was a CRAP DEAL for junior pilots.
Again - many Senior Pilots voted YES because a number of the 'offsets' did not apply or directly affect them....Unfortunately, providing their junior pilots with POOR LEADERSHIP (a common trend in QF)....I understand a 3% increase in pay would mean quite a lot to a Senior Captain (when you fact Super into the equation etc).....But I bet when you started in QF the Senior guys looked out for you!
My point is that if EBA 7 had of been voted on by only the more Junior 50% of Long Haul Pilots it would have been voted down convincingly.....
Clearly, the current JETSTAR proposal may possibly reward a very lucky few at the top (even then the deal is still CRAP)....
However, for most, especially the more junior JETSTAR Pilots and those waiting to join...this deal is undeniably and completely unsatisfactory...
Like most of the Junior QF Mainline Long Haul Pilots did in EBA 7- VOTE NO and stick it to management. This deal is CRAP and they know it!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“I'd make more money labouring than as Jetstar FO.”
Maybe you would, so if your career focus is money and nothing else then grab a shovel and get to work. I don’t think you will though.
Maybe you would, so if your career focus is money and nothing else then grab a shovel and get to work. I don’t think you will though.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There really is no problem here.If the Jetstar crew accept this deal they can rot on their terrible conditions.
This will not affect any who have posted here with all their wonderful advice and who are obviously experts in negotiating employment conditions.So I am sure they will be standing shoulder to shoulder and will negotiate for nothing less than they think they are worth with steel like resolve.
This will not affect any who have posted here with all their wonderful advice and who are obviously experts in negotiating employment conditions.So I am sure they will be standing shoulder to shoulder and will negotiate for nothing less than they think they are worth with steel like resolve.
for the sake of the profession.
Originally Posted by Big Jan
There really is no problem here.If the Jetstar crew accept this deal they can rot on their terrible conditions.
This will not affect any who have posted here with all their wonderful advice and who are obviously experts in negotiating employment conditions.So I am sure they will be standing shoulder to shoulder and will negotiate for nothing less than they think they are worth with steel like resolve.
This will not affect any who have posted here with all their wonderful advice and who are obviously experts in negotiating employment conditions.So I am sure they will be standing shoulder to shoulder and will negotiate for nothing less than they think they are worth with steel like resolve.
J* International conditions will be come benchmark. This is business. Next outfit, or new fleet type, that flies internationally out of Oz, will offer benchmark minus X%. Australian pilots will accept it.
AnQrKa
Some pretty high paying jobs there. I see you are burdened with golden handcuffs! Unless of course, you become AnQrKaJ*.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where I'm not alarmed
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Tankengine] If so many guys are out there for Jetstar Int jobs why do the Indians need to offer so many TAX FREE Dollars??/QUOTE]
Obviously we have a deep thinker here!
Obviously we have a deep thinker here!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The dark corner of the bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahhh vitriol is a wonderful thing!!!. Ive really enjoyed reading the ney sayer posts in the last while. Both here and on rooroom. Thankfully, jetstar guys can sleep peacefully in the knowledge that if, as encouraged by many mailine guys, they vote the EBA ammendment down most if not all QF pilots would happily walk out in support of their now isolated "Collegues".
Whats that I hear you say? That would never happen. Just look at the level of support that has been forthcoming thus far. It doesnt matter for me as my time aloft is fast becoming limmited by age. Its the current batch of, in my opinion, very competent FOs that need the oportunities provided by international ops. As to what the mainline guys think? who gives a rats. You are certainly not the benchmark of professionalism. Try working OS and get out of the rafia mat society that has been created for you hide in.
Mainline guys looking after Number One. Zero support from the professional benchmark set. How would you vote?
Gorging on panninis DM
Whats that I hear you say? That would never happen. Just look at the level of support that has been forthcoming thus far. It doesnt matter for me as my time aloft is fast becoming limmited by age. Its the current batch of, in my opinion, very competent FOs that need the oportunities provided by international ops. As to what the mainline guys think? who gives a rats. You are certainly not the benchmark of professionalism. Try working OS and get out of the rafia mat society that has been created for you hide in.
Mainline guys looking after Number One. Zero support from the professional benchmark set. How would you vote?
Gorging on panninis DM