Metro Thread
Well if nothing else, Metro drivers will get magna stick readings after seeing matainence has been done on fuel gauges from now on, I would think. Not sure if this was/wasn't done before said flight. 
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Magna sticks are NOT reliable, and have a PROVEN error of about 40USG. It takes about 15 mins to do, and most , if not ALL, operators would ONLY require that the crew do a magna stick only IF there was any doubt about the amount of fuel onboard.
IF the book matches with FUEL added + Fuel used + Fuel Guages + just re certified by engineers.... WHY would you do a magna stick ?
IF the book matches with FUEL added + Fuel used + Fuel Guages + just re certified by engineers.... WHY would you do a magna stick ?
1. 5yrs and several thousand hrs on type most in command. Never came across "unreliable" magna sticks. Anyone that can read knows that in the manual it states a discrepancy can exist.
2. Takes less than 10 seconds to drop a single magna stick and take a reading. I make that 20 secs if you're reading both and thats at leisure. Could easily be done quicker in one was in a hurry.
3. Ops manual stated that fuel had to be verified via 3 methods. We operated a hell of a lot more of this type than the operater concerned and never, that's right, NEVER had any issues of fuel starvation.
4. If you don't know the reason why a magstick should be done as part and parcel of the pre-flight then you're a lost cause. I think the word you're looking for is AIRMANSHIP. Give it a try.
I've praised the crew for getting everyone safely on the ground. No-one is doubting that. It's the reason that this had to happen is the question I seek answers to. I'll refrain from further comment on this matter and wait for the final report.
Metrosexual
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Regarding checking fuel consumed on the metro, the fuel consumed totaliser will only tell you part of the story!
How do you check if there has been a leak upstream of the fuel flow transmitter (faulty seal on a fuel cap for example)?
That's where a DIRECT READING of the fuel in the tanks with the magnastix comes in handy, as long as they are read in the proper circumstance.
How do you check if there has been a leak upstream of the fuel flow transmitter (faulty seal on a fuel cap for example)?
That's where a DIRECT READING of the fuel in the tanks with the magnastix comes in handy, as long as they are read in the proper circumstance.
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Re: Metro Thread
Bushy - the word on the NZ Metro is that the fire was post breakup. The focus has been on icing.
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Re: Metro Thread
Originally Posted by Vacant Towers
If as the Woomera suggests above that the errant Metro thread was the one regarding SEF, then indeed there was earlier discussion that saw the originator delete their initial post. This of course, saw the entire thread disappear as a consequence.
If I remember correctly, the originator mistakenly associated SEF with another operator they had a close emotional relationship with that possibly obsured reason in their outlook (and postings).
VT
If I remember correctly, the originator mistakenly associated SEF with another operator they had a close emotional relationship with that possibly obsured reason in their outlook (and postings).
VT
Cheers,
Fiona Norris
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Re: Metro Thread
Chief wiggim,
Any maintenance done on a system increases the chance of an incident involving that system. I've heard engineers refer to it as the "bath tub effect" because if you draw a graph of time since maintenance v's likelyhood of an incident , the result looks like a sectioned view of a bathtub. That is why it would be a perfect time to do a more detailed preflight on the fuel system and use the magna sticks.
Easy to say tho and harder to do in reality,
cheers
Any maintenance done on a system increases the chance of an incident involving that system. I've heard engineers refer to it as the "bath tub effect" because if you draw a graph of time since maintenance v's likelyhood of an incident , the result looks like a sectioned view of a bathtub. That is why it would be a perfect time to do a more detailed preflight on the fuel system and use the magna sticks.
Easy to say tho and harder to do in reality,
cheers
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Re: Metro Thread
5yrs and several thousand hrs on type most in command. Never came across "unreliable" magna sticks. Anyone that can read knows that in the manual it states a discrepancy can exist
I also agree that a PROPER preflight inspection is vital... I have never suggested otherwise, BUT maybe the time constraints may have led to a slightly rushed preflight ? ... I do not know.
I do know that dropping the magna sticks, and calculating the fuel onboard, and all the associated work that goes with it, takes longer than 10 seconds!
Fuel verified by three methods? ABSOLUTELY.... and you can preach airmanship all you like, but I will bet that IF you have verified fuel by three means, AND the fuel guages have recently been recalibrated, then a magnastick would be the furtherest thing from your mind!
I'd have the effo drop them at every turnaround
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Re: Metro Thread
[QUOTE][/I do know that dropping the magna sticks, and calculating the fuel onboard, and all the associated work that goes with it, takes longer than 10 seconds!
QUOTE]
Again Wiggum you've let yourself down. Go and do some homework on the topic before posting your comical but nonetheless garbage on here. If you had even the remotest clue as to what you are posting you would cease and desist. Simple as that.......
QUOTE]
Again Wiggum you've let yourself down. Go and do some homework on the topic before posting your comical but nonetheless garbage on here. If you had even the remotest clue as to what you are posting you would cease and desist. Simple as that.......
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Re: Metro Thread
so how long exactly would you take to do it? I would agree about 5 mins to do both magna sticks, reseat them, clean your hands and do the calculations ?
IF you want to be PEDANTIC, which YOU probably do, Defenestrator, then YES, it will take about 2 seconds to ACTUALLY drop a magnastick. All the associated work that goes with it is where the extra time is.
IF you want to be PEDANTIC, which YOU probably do, Defenestrator, then YES, it will take about 2 seconds to ACTUALLY drop a magnastick. All the associated work that goes with it is where the extra time is.
Re: Metro Thread
People this argument is stupid
What has been estblished here is that the fuel was not properly checked/verified
If it was checked and the correct fuel on board loaded the aeroplane would not have attempted to leave the sky before the crew intended it to.
What happens now is up to SEA/CASA/ the engineering company and the crew themselves.
Lets hope It doesn't happen again
By putting the thoughts down readers will at least cement the idea fuel management in ALL forms is paramount
What has been estblished here is that the fuel was not properly checked/verified
If it was checked and the correct fuel on board loaded the aeroplane would not have attempted to leave the sky before the crew intended it to.
What happens now is up to SEA/CASA/ the engineering company and the crew themselves.
Lets hope It doesn't happen again
By putting the thoughts down readers will at least cement the idea fuel management in ALL forms is paramount
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Re: Metro Thread
Magna Sticks are great in theory,
but what happens when the AFM states that the magna's should be accurate to within 2 US GALS (13.4lbs) and then the maintenance manual allows up to 16 US GALS (214.2lbs total) per side discrepancy. Well there goes over 2/3 of your fixed reserves. Metros are good for nothing and far out dated. They need to be all pushed together in a big pile and set alite.....
Well thats my 2 cents
but what happens when the AFM states that the magna's should be accurate to within 2 US GALS (13.4lbs) and then the maintenance manual allows up to 16 US GALS (214.2lbs total) per side discrepancy. Well there goes over 2/3 of your fixed reserves. Metros are good for nothing and far out dated. They need to be all pushed together in a big pile and set alite.....
Well thats my 2 cents
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Re: Metro Thread
OK, not a Metro driver, but if in doubt (and subject to load) then top the darn tanks off so you can see they're full! 
Three things you can't live without:
1. Altitude above
2. Runway aft
3. Fuel back in the bowser
(
Duck for cover)
VHCU
Three things you can't live without:
1. Altitude above
2. Runway aft
3. Fuel back in the bowser
(
Duck for cover)VHCU
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Cheer up
If you knew what the remaining useful load of a Metro with full tanks is, you wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement. Same goes for most other commercial aircraft. We won't even bother to go into performance penalties.
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Re: Metro Thread
IF you want to be PEDANTIC, which YOU probably do, Defenestrator, then YES, it will take about 2 seconds to ACTUALLY drop a magnastick. All the associated work that goes with it is where the extra time is.
Give it away Wiggum for your own sake. You've insulted every pilot that fly's the metro with your ignorance. Maybe when you graduate to a turbine RPT operation you'll understand the difference. Hopefully so.
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Re: Cheer up
Good to see the Aussie spirit of cheerfulness is alive and well:
Errm, well I did say:
And as for most other commercial aircraft having a remaining useful load with full tanks, please... Where's Mr. Boeing when you need him?
VHCU
Originally Posted by BackdoorBandit
If you knew what the remaining useful load of a Metro with full tanks is, you wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement. Same goes for most other commercial aircraft. We won't even bother to go into performance penalties.
Originally Posted by VH-Cheer Up
OK, not a Metro driver, but if in doubt (and subject to load)...
VHCU
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What was this thread about, anyway?
This thread is wallowing all over the place, seldom on topic, and degenerating into a p***s measuring contest.
Game over, children.
Woomera (Eastern States)
Game over, children.
Woomera (Eastern States)
