Jetstar Eba
Ronnie,
I think it would be best if YOU and Gardenbug (where's the glyphosate?) buzzed off to some other forum so the rest of us could discuss this issue calmly and logically...
I think it would be best if YOU and Gardenbug (where's the glyphosate?) buzzed off to some other forum so the rest of us could discuss this issue calmly and logically...
Captain Bloggs & Big Jan
Firstly, Bloggs. That only a handful of world wide operators of Airbus were listed, all with better remunertion than J*, a point probably lost on you. Yes they weren't desirable jobs as you alluded to, but we are establishing a relative market. That no mention was made of the many legacy carriers, and comparisons of J* wages was in the main to those of developing nations, should not be lost on you.
The point could have been reinforced better by stating - " Who in the world pays less than J* for expereinced Airbus pilots? " This is where the many faces of Fat Eric would return into the fray, listing Bengali and Bhutanese Airbus pilots as happily working for J* wages.
Now Jan & Bloggs listen up. One of you in an above post, by your own admission, has admitted to a tactic of professionally undercutting contemporary QF pilots. Further stating it is none of anyone's business unless you work for QF.
I disagree. And I am not a visionary and to an extent, basing my pessimistic outlook on the legacy Impulse pilots have left. In a world of globalisation, the insatiable desire and firm belief ( by Australian low cost pilots ) that the only way to progress is to professionally undercut, is probably going to end in tears.
The legacy the orginal Impulse pilot group left- undercutting for contracts and paying for jet endorsements- has affected all Australian pilots and reshaped the marketplace. The orginal Impulse pilots have done well, using experienced gained to progress to normal paying jobs or if unable or not wanting to move, have been very lucky at being baled out by QF and used to compete against the very monster they created in Australia- although Virgin Blue pilots have made more industrial progress than Impulse/J* incidently.
The next round, the destruction of QF conditions of service by J*, will have serious regional ramifications for pilots.
Fat Eric
You digress but your reference to Indian military fast jet pilots interesting. Firstly, unlike first world military pilots, Indian AF qualifications are as transferable on the international pilot market place as that of having a bare bones Australian CPL. This is not to detract from the bravery and skill of flying an old Mig27 at 600kts around the highest battlefield in the world, the Kashmir region, with a map and a compass and a deplorable safety record.
But the surge in Indian civil aviation will see a huge demand for Indian military pilots at home. Will they go down the road of Far East Asia with it's inherent safety problems- namely Korea & Taiwan- attributed directly, in the case of Korea specifically, with the unsuccessful transition of a developing nation's military aviation culture, to that of it's rapidly expanding civilian one?
I believe we will see wage pressure in India aswell as market pressure for expereinced Airbus training airmen- earning considerably more than J* pilots.
How many training credits does J* get? I am not privy to the commercial deal they received with Airbus. Perhaps, and knowing the fortitude of the pilot group in selling out future generations, they negotiated fewer than a foreign operator would. I believe it is robbing young pilots of wages even though, like you, I have never had to pay for expensive jet training.
Skills in debating? A bit cheeky from a fellow who uses three or four PPrune handles to push a bizarre professional masochism ie: the satisfaction in declining conditions of service for Australian pilots. This perversely, when you have enjoyed working for some very good carriers.
Your hypothetical? If I were in a sensitive position, in a land of few labour protections, but where unity is respected but militancy punished, comments on such scenarios more pertinent face to face.
Multiple handles and attempts to personalise issues not very sporting.
Firstly, Bloggs. That only a handful of world wide operators of Airbus were listed, all with better remunertion than J*, a point probably lost on you. Yes they weren't desirable jobs as you alluded to, but we are establishing a relative market. That no mention was made of the many legacy carriers, and comparisons of J* wages was in the main to those of developing nations, should not be lost on you.
The point could have been reinforced better by stating - " Who in the world pays less than J* for expereinced Airbus pilots? " This is where the many faces of Fat Eric would return into the fray, listing Bengali and Bhutanese Airbus pilots as happily working for J* wages.
Now Jan & Bloggs listen up. One of you in an above post, by your own admission, has admitted to a tactic of professionally undercutting contemporary QF pilots. Further stating it is none of anyone's business unless you work for QF.
I disagree. And I am not a visionary and to an extent, basing my pessimistic outlook on the legacy Impulse pilots have left. In a world of globalisation, the insatiable desire and firm belief ( by Australian low cost pilots ) that the only way to progress is to professionally undercut, is probably going to end in tears.
The legacy the orginal Impulse pilot group left- undercutting for contracts and paying for jet endorsements- has affected all Australian pilots and reshaped the marketplace. The orginal Impulse pilots have done well, using experienced gained to progress to normal paying jobs or if unable or not wanting to move, have been very lucky at being baled out by QF and used to compete against the very monster they created in Australia- although Virgin Blue pilots have made more industrial progress than Impulse/J* incidently.
The next round, the destruction of QF conditions of service by J*, will have serious regional ramifications for pilots.
Fat Eric
You digress but your reference to Indian military fast jet pilots interesting. Firstly, unlike first world military pilots, Indian AF qualifications are as transferable on the international pilot market place as that of having a bare bones Australian CPL. This is not to detract from the bravery and skill of flying an old Mig27 at 600kts around the highest battlefield in the world, the Kashmir region, with a map and a compass and a deplorable safety record.
But the surge in Indian civil aviation will see a huge demand for Indian military pilots at home. Will they go down the road of Far East Asia with it's inherent safety problems- namely Korea & Taiwan- attributed directly, in the case of Korea specifically, with the unsuccessful transition of a developing nation's military aviation culture, to that of it's rapidly expanding civilian one?
I believe we will see wage pressure in India aswell as market pressure for expereinced Airbus training airmen- earning considerably more than J* pilots.
How many training credits does J* get? I am not privy to the commercial deal they received with Airbus. Perhaps, and knowing the fortitude of the pilot group in selling out future generations, they negotiated fewer than a foreign operator would. I believe it is robbing young pilots of wages even though, like you, I have never had to pay for expensive jet training.
Skills in debating? A bit cheeky from a fellow who uses three or four PPrune handles to push a bizarre professional masochism ie: the satisfaction in declining conditions of service for Australian pilots. This perversely, when you have enjoyed working for some very good carriers.
Your hypothetical? If I were in a sensitive position, in a land of few labour protections, but where unity is respected but militancy punished, comments on such scenarios more pertinent face to face.
Multiple handles and attempts to personalise issues not very sporting.
Bugger. The glyphosate didn't work. He's back.
Gardenbug, the way you continue to harp on, without providing one ounce of a suggestion about how to stop the rot and instead accuse us of being "professional undercutters", tantamount to being called a scab, makes me increasingly happy to undercut you when I get the chance, because you deserve it, pal.
Crank the mixture ratio up to 50% will you, honey?
Edited for spelling.
Gardenbug, the way you continue to harp on, without providing one ounce of a suggestion about how to stop the rot and instead accuse us of being "professional undercutters", tantamount to being called a scab, makes me increasingly happy to undercut you when I get the chance, because you deserve it, pal.
Crank the mixture ratio up to 50% will you, honey?
Edited for spelling.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 22nd Jul 2005 at 07:59.
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Gnads,
If you are not privy to the number of training credits obtained when Jetstar ordered the Airbus fleet then why would you make implications based on such information?
I am unsure which of my comments lead you to believe that I gain any sort of satisfaction from the decline in conditions of service in the Australian airline industry.
You accuse me and other ppruners on this and other occasions of using multiple user names. Such siege mentality will not help your argument at all.
If you are not privy to the number of training credits obtained when Jetstar ordered the Airbus fleet then why would you make implications based on such information?
I am unsure which of my comments lead you to believe that I gain any sort of satisfaction from the decline in conditions of service in the Australian airline industry.
You accuse me and other ppruners on this and other occasions of using multiple user names. Such siege mentality will not help your argument at all.
Gnads,
actually none of the Impulse Pilots were ever required to fork out for their jet endorsements - they had to provide a bank guarantee for 2 years return of service ie. a bond. The VB newies had to get their own rating - a trend which has now caught on downunder.
Hmmm...supply and demand again.
actually none of the Impulse Pilots were ever required to fork out for their jet endorsements - they had to provide a bank guarantee for 2 years return of service ie. a bond. The VB newies had to get their own rating - a trend which has now caught on downunder.
Hmmm...supply and demand again.
Last edited by Watchdog; 23rd Jul 2005 at 03:05.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I wonder what the relationship is between the "easy money" (the lines of credit the banks so freely offer), and the willingness of pilots to pay for just about anything, is.
You two have been having a fun time during my 3 days away, Big Jan and Ronnie......sorry to disappoint you, B J, but I haven't had internet access during that period.
You two have been having a fun time during my 3 days away, Big Jan and Ronnie......sorry to disappoint you, B J, but I haven't had internet access during that period.
