Four Corners
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TurbineJunkie,
Quote:
"Rather, the Degree concept is meant to be a tough HURDLE REQUIREMENT that atificially limits the number of pilots entering in this industry so that eventually as the supply side of the equation decreases causing the demand side (and therefore pay and conditions) to INCREASE."
Won't work, Degrees are a joke these days, an Arts (and crafts) degree takes 2.5 years in the UK, 3 at a push here, any well read literature or History buff could do one in 6 months, your point about having previous flight experience or a PPL is also flawed, what is there to stop daddy from buying his son a PPL , safe in the knowledge that his jimmy will get a head start on the rest ?
FYI, some cadet schemes in Euroland have a ratio of 11,000 applicants to 10-20 jobs, thats a 1000:1 ratio, some general outta school jobs used to have 100:1 or even 200:1 ratios, so it will probably get worse here, and not better.
To clarify, when I took the Aer Lingus cadet applicant process, there were 11000 applicants, sure many dropped off, but that was the initial bulk process. The 100:1 I refer to was an apprentice in the bank, all this was circa 1988 , but numbers have not declined since then, more like increased.
In Fairness, the last decade or so has seen relatively few numbers of applicants for most jobs , relatively speaking that is, 100:1 is a pretty good ratio. Anyone who jobseeked in the 90's should have a chat with someone who did it in the 70's/early 80's to find out what tough is all about, by comparison we have had it easy.
Gaunty:
"Each and every young pilot who accepts "work" under those conditions should hang their head in shame and take their share of responsibility for the state of the industry.
They have no absolutely no right to complain about their lot."
All very well to say if you are already there, it's not advice that anyone with conviction, ambition and desperation is going to take notice of, this state of affairs did not happen overnight, the industry was f(uked well before they started.
Quote:
"Rather, the Degree concept is meant to be a tough HURDLE REQUIREMENT that atificially limits the number of pilots entering in this industry so that eventually as the supply side of the equation decreases causing the demand side (and therefore pay and conditions) to INCREASE."
Won't work, Degrees are a joke these days, an Arts (and crafts) degree takes 2.5 years in the UK, 3 at a push here, any well read literature or History buff could do one in 6 months, your point about having previous flight experience or a PPL is also flawed, what is there to stop daddy from buying his son a PPL , safe in the knowledge that his jimmy will get a head start on the rest ?
FYI, some cadet schemes in Euroland have a ratio of 11,000 applicants to 10-20 jobs, thats a 1000:1 ratio, some general outta school jobs used to have 100:1 or even 200:1 ratios, so it will probably get worse here, and not better.
To clarify, when I took the Aer Lingus cadet applicant process, there were 11000 applicants, sure many dropped off, but that was the initial bulk process. The 100:1 I refer to was an apprentice in the bank, all this was circa 1988 , but numbers have not declined since then, more like increased.
In Fairness, the last decade or so has seen relatively few numbers of applicants for most jobs , relatively speaking that is, 100:1 is a pretty good ratio. Anyone who jobseeked in the 90's should have a chat with someone who did it in the 70's/early 80's to find out what tough is all about, by comparison we have had it easy.
Gaunty:
"Each and every young pilot who accepts "work" under those conditions should hang their head in shame and take their share of responsibility for the state of the industry.
They have no absolutely no right to complain about their lot."
All very well to say if you are already there, it's not advice that anyone with conviction, ambition and desperation is going to take notice of, this state of affairs did not happen overnight, the industry was f(uked well before they started.
Last edited by 7gcbc; 10th Jul 2005 at 16:33.
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7gcbc
Maybe, but you must also accept that it was the legions of "wannabes" before them and the ones before them that brought us to this point.
I have over the last 30 or so years seen hundreds of the most unlikely schemes hatched by the desperate to get those hours.
There was not one of those that didn't bust the rules, predate an existing operators client and revenue, cheep
(often their previous employer) or make a profit. Just for hours.
The airlines are complicit and the training orgs who advertise "how to become a B747 Capt for only $25,000"
If there was one single way to sort it all out, it may be IMHO (and I haven't thought it through completely ) that we go to the UK CAA ATP system and the Australian airlines and operators are required to sponsor your "frozen" CPL/ATPL issue.???
Dare I mention the word cadet here or would that be just another way for the operator to exploit the pilots "dream".
You can get a law degree but you can't practise on any one unless you have done a further apprenticeship called "articles" likewise medicine and just about any profession trade that is licensed.
Aviation is the only place that you can get a "licence" and literally be operating on real live passengers the next day.
Maybe, but you must also accept that it was the legions of "wannabes" before them and the ones before them that brought us to this point.
I have over the last 30 or so years seen hundreds of the most unlikely schemes hatched by the desperate to get those hours.
There was not one of those that didn't bust the rules, predate an existing operators client and revenue, cheep
(often their previous employer) or make a profit. Just for hours.The airlines are complicit and the training orgs who advertise "how to become a B747 Capt for only $25,000"
If there was one single way to sort it all out, it may be IMHO (and I haven't thought it through completely ) that we go to the UK CAA ATP system and the Australian airlines and operators are required to sponsor your "frozen" CPL/ATPL issue.???
Dare I mention the word cadet here or would that be just another way for the operator to exploit the pilots "dream".
You can get a law degree but you can't practise on any one unless you have done a further apprenticeship called "articles" likewise medicine and just about any profession trade that is licensed.
Aviation is the only place that you can get a "licence" and literally be operating on real live passengers the next day.
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Allegations in this and other threads has prompted a new locked thread on Illegal practices in Australian aviation, stickied at the top of this forum.
Woomera
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The Qantas Captain's hat was given to me as a gift by a Qantas Captain. We had it displayed at Paul's memorial service. Paul like most pilots would have eventually loved to work for Qantas and I know without a doubt he would have made it. He had already become an RPT Captain so we thought it was fitting. I guess The Australian thought it symbolised "The Dream"! Again the lure of that airline job leads pilots in GA to put up with slave labour conditions.
Fiona Norris
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Gaunty, I think you may be right.
For some time I have thought that the way Australia "trains" its pilots for airlines is out of step with what the airlines actually want.
A few years ago I was talking with a QANTAS check and training captain who explained their rationale for the company's requirements. Basically it was to get staff before they had developed too many bad habits that would be expensive to remove. Bad habits that time in GA develops.
Why is the requirement still there for 500 hours multi-engine command? Why aren't single-engine turbine hours considered the equivalent? Why does Australia continue to denigrate the cadet approach taken in Europe and the United States when by all accounts it works in an environment that is far less conducive to aviation than Australia?
I really doubt that several years in GA gives you any advantage in flying an airline except a very cynical approach to employers.
Please do not think this is the rant of someone who has been rejected by an airlines or cannot get the qualifications. Many years ago I did want to go there but events took another turn. Now I would not go there even if it were possible. These are just the observations of someone who looks a bit more dispassionately at the industry most of us are involved in.
For some time I have thought that the way Australia "trains" its pilots for airlines is out of step with what the airlines actually want.
A few years ago I was talking with a QANTAS check and training captain who explained their rationale for the company's requirements. Basically it was to get staff before they had developed too many bad habits that would be expensive to remove. Bad habits that time in GA develops.
Why is the requirement still there for 500 hours multi-engine command? Why aren't single-engine turbine hours considered the equivalent? Why does Australia continue to denigrate the cadet approach taken in Europe and the United States when by all accounts it works in an environment that is far less conducive to aviation than Australia?
I really doubt that several years in GA gives you any advantage in flying an airline except a very cynical approach to employers.
Please do not think this is the rant of someone who has been rejected by an airlines or cannot get the qualifications. Many years ago I did want to go there but events took another turn. Now I would not go there even if it were possible. These are just the observations of someone who looks a bit more dispassionately at the industry most of us are involved in.
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Industrial relations are very much in the news these days. Has any one thought to rub 'honest John's' nose into this? He could do some good for once and write something with teeth into the new system. In my time I had 3 complaints lodged with the Industrial Relations Commission and the AFAP. It seems all they can do is to 'encourage' the employer to do the right thing. If the employer does not 'voluntarily' comply there is no way they can be forced to, except of strike action and a strike of 1 is not very effective. 'Honest John' made a 'core promise' on TV that NO ONE will get less than the 'legal' minimum wage. Hello - wake up. Some one will need to help him put his finger on the pulse. Perhaps the AFAP could work with the ACTU?
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PLovett
exactly my point.
It's not a new concept Lufthansa, British, SQ and many others either do it that way or have a similar system.
Has the old QF system gone off the rails???
JAL at one time seriously considered ab initio training to CPL in B747s, apart from the cost why not, it's just another (biggish maybe, but what the heck) aircraft.0
If you have never flown anything else how would you know the difference and they can teach you whatever habits they want.
First solo would be interesting,
but why, in any event the guy is never ever going to fly it solo.
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to fly an aircraft, any aircraft, just the appropriate education and training.
Basically it was to get staff before they had developed too many bad habits that would be expensive to remove. Bad habits that time in GA develops.
It's not a new concept Lufthansa, British, SQ and many others either do it that way or have a similar system.
Has the old QF system gone off the rails???
JAL at one time seriously considered ab initio training to CPL in B747s, apart from the cost why not, it's just another (biggish maybe, but what the heck) aircraft.0
If you have never flown anything else how would you know the difference and they can teach you whatever habits they want.
First solo would be interesting,
but why, in any event the guy is never ever going to fly it solo.You don't need to be a rocket scientist to fly an aircraft, any aircraft, just the appropriate education and training.
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Gaunty
The impossible is happening. I can actually discern some wisdom in your latest postings. I agree with much of what you are saying.
The GA industry is ailing for a number of reasons. The economics are wrong, mainly because of govt interference and distortions.
I have to compete with other companies that are in reciept of grants, subsidies, concessions, dispensations, exceptions, protection, approvals, and selective regulation. "Not for profit" organisations are granted charter and RPT AOC's and are propped up by public subscription. ( I do not mean the RFDS)
While that happens, there will always be a shortage of money, except for the chosen few, and "legal and political cunning"will be more important than business or aviation ability.
The genuine bush pilots are being undermined by a flood of wannabies from the coastal flying schools. It is not fair on them or anyone.
It's an obscene lottery, where nearly everyone loses except the major airlines. (just like the rest of the aviation industry.)
This problem can be fixed by having the major airlines select candidates with an interview, aptitude tests etc, and an agreement, before they train, so everyone knows where they are going, or not going, GA can reduce it's accident rate by having a stable, dedicated and experienced pilot group.
Or recruit cadets. Maybe the major airlines could run their own flying schools and not have 600 flying schools churning out a flood of young pilots who soon become angry, negative people.(look at the posts on Prune)
There's more, but that's enogh for tonight.
The impossible is happening. I can actually discern some wisdom in your latest postings. I agree with much of what you are saying.
The GA industry is ailing for a number of reasons. The economics are wrong, mainly because of govt interference and distortions.
I have to compete with other companies that are in reciept of grants, subsidies, concessions, dispensations, exceptions, protection, approvals, and selective regulation. "Not for profit" organisations are granted charter and RPT AOC's and are propped up by public subscription. ( I do not mean the RFDS)
While that happens, there will always be a shortage of money, except for the chosen few, and "legal and political cunning"will be more important than business or aviation ability.
The genuine bush pilots are being undermined by a flood of wannabies from the coastal flying schools. It is not fair on them or anyone.
It's an obscene lottery, where nearly everyone loses except the major airlines. (just like the rest of the aviation industry.)
This problem can be fixed by having the major airlines select candidates with an interview, aptitude tests etc, and an agreement, before they train, so everyone knows where they are going, or not going, GA can reduce it's accident rate by having a stable, dedicated and experienced pilot group.
Or recruit cadets. Maybe the major airlines could run their own flying schools and not have 600 flying schools churning out a flood of young pilots who soon become angry, negative people.(look at the posts on Prune)
There's more, but that's enogh for tonight.
Bushy
The non-profit sector of GA is soaring ahead.
It would seem that the government has decided that non-profit is the way forward and is determined to ensure ALL g.a operators are non-profit!
It would seem that the government has decided that non-profit is the way forward and is determined to ensure ALL g.a operators are non-profit!
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Age, Habits, Hours and cultures
On the subject of experience and developing bad habits in GA. I tend to agree that GA is not the best overall place to obtainexperience for tghe airline world and that cadetships and ab initio styles are far better at tailoring pilots to produce outcomes. There are no real similarities in the equipment, safety cultures or operating environments between GA aircarft and heavy jets. Chalk and cheese.
As for experience and habits. I read on another recent thread all the attacks on the young and qantas FO who made input errors to the FMS in his 737NG and caused a terrain alert to sound on approach to Canberra. He was abused for being both "too young" and "too inexperienced" to be in the job by lots of pilots out there. Yet, right now over NSW there is probably a twenty year old flying solo in an FA-18 Hornet with less than 350 hours total time. Difference is, he is trained to do it, motivated and knows what his employer expects of him. Nobody says "boo" about him being too young or too inexperienced do they?
Quality of training, focus and motivation are what gets people over the line, the five years of bush bashing in a dilapidated old baron only make you a good baron pilot and really count for sweet FA in the heavy jet community. Take a look overseas, the proof is everywhere.
As for experience and habits. I read on another recent thread all the attacks on the young and qantas FO who made input errors to the FMS in his 737NG and caused a terrain alert to sound on approach to Canberra. He was abused for being both "too young" and "too inexperienced" to be in the job by lots of pilots out there. Yet, right now over NSW there is probably a twenty year old flying solo in an FA-18 Hornet with less than 350 hours total time. Difference is, he is trained to do it, motivated and knows what his employer expects of him. Nobody says "boo" about him being too young or too inexperienced do they?
Quality of training, focus and motivation are what gets people over the line, the five years of bush bashing in a dilapidated old baron only make you a good baron pilot and really count for sweet FA in the heavy jet community. Take a look overseas, the proof is everywhere.
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And what happened to the infallable two pilot system, where every move is checked by the other crew member? Didn't work did it? And the same thing happened in the westwind crash some years ago. The cross check did not work.
People are human, and humans are influenced by many factors, some of which may be irrellevent, distracting,or incorrect.I have no wish to denigrate the pilots concerned, but I get angry when I read of "quality of training", Quality systems etc. etc.
That stuff is for the military. They have to think they are better than anyone else. It's their job.
But the rest of us are supposed to be able to think, and dael with facts. Not waffle about "quality training"
People are human, and humans are influenced by many factors, some of which may be irrellevent, distracting,or incorrect.I have no wish to denigrate the pilots concerned, but I get angry when I read of "quality of training", Quality systems etc. etc.
That stuff is for the military. They have to think they are better than anyone else. It's their job.
But the rest of us are supposed to be able to think, and dael with facts. Not waffle about "quality training"
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bushy I guess I should be grateful for a compliment from you however backhanded. 
I think you would find a search of my posts over the years follow a consistent theme based like yours on actual hands on real live GA experience, as did my behaviour within a certain organisation. Something they lack in spades.
Goodness, I could not find anything in your post with which I could argue without exhibiting pratdom.
Maybe this is what they call being in love, PPRuNes first internet marriage.
I think you would find a search of my posts over the years follow a consistent theme based like yours on actual hands on real live GA experience, as did my behaviour within a certain organisation. Something they lack in spades.
Goodness, I could not find anything in your post with which I could argue without exhibiting pratdom.
Maybe this is what they call being in love, PPRuNes first internet marriage.
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Ginjockey,
Cadet training and others alike might be at a much greater advantage in the training fase but the majority that come through that still know next to bugger all with regard to comand judgement and overall common sense approach to situations.
GA is a proving ground for this experience.
You say flying outback in a baron only makes a good baron pilot and has SFA re big jet flying.....What a crok of ....
Like instructing versus charter, Attitude, motivation, experience among other qualities make the pilot good. Operating techniques, speeds, procedures etc etc will of course be worlds in difference but that does not mean a pilot flying a baron is next to useless. I will not start a cadet bashing debate but I will say a great many of your so called better trained better qualified for BIG (wow) JETS pilots are so wet behind the ears and up themselves that they are more of a hindrence than a team member! Then they go and get experience and real world knowledge and hopefully get a burner job.
Hey hang on that's just like the baron pilot isn't it?
Cadet training and others alike might be at a much greater advantage in the training fase but the majority that come through that still know next to bugger all with regard to comand judgement and overall common sense approach to situations.
GA is a proving ground for this experience.
You say flying outback in a baron only makes a good baron pilot and has SFA re big jet flying.....What a crok of ....
Like instructing versus charter, Attitude, motivation, experience among other qualities make the pilot good. Operating techniques, speeds, procedures etc etc will of course be worlds in difference but that does not mean a pilot flying a baron is next to useless. I will not start a cadet bashing debate but I will say a great many of your so called better trained better qualified for BIG (wow) JETS pilots are so wet behind the ears and up themselves that they are more of a hindrence than a team member! Then they go and get experience and real world knowledge and hopefully get a burner job.
Hey hang on that's just like the baron pilot isn't it?
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maxgrad
I might be a bit old fashioned, but one of the ways I would use to "filter" the several thousand applications I might get for the "big jet job" would be to throw out those who have a bit of a problem with spelling, grammar and syntax.
I want people on the flight deck with me who are literate and able to communicate concisely, clearly and effectively.
If you can't spell how do you use a dictionary?
If I need them to look up something quickly in the QRH or whatever, then it helps if they know readin and writin and speakin.
May I suggest that the "wet behind the ears" may have a bit of an advantage over yourself.
fase, crok, hindrence, comand ?
This isn't personal, just an observation.
If you want to be perceived as a professional then you need to appear to be well educated.
The way we use our language is the guide to others as to how we think and process information.
I might be a bit old fashioned, but one of the ways I would use to "filter" the several thousand applications I might get for the "big jet job" would be to throw out those who have a bit of a problem with spelling, grammar and syntax.
I want people on the flight deck with me who are literate and able to communicate concisely, clearly and effectively.
If you can't spell how do you use a dictionary?
If I need them to look up something quickly in the QRH or whatever, then it helps if they know readin and writin and speakin.
May I suggest that the "wet behind the ears" may have a bit of an advantage over yourself.
fase, crok, hindrence, comand ?
This isn't personal, just an observation.
If you want to be perceived as a professional then you need to appear to be well educated.
The way we use our language is the guide to others as to how we think and process information.
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This is an internet forum Gaunty and quite frankly I don't give a rats rear entrance with regards to spelling.
You, I can see are well versed in spelling and grammar and choose to "discuss' matters from an english teachers bent.
I would rather discuss the aviation issues and save my spelling and dictionary skills for my professional life as a pilot and letter writing.
I have a job and do not intend to apply for a position through PPRUNE to gain any further employment. This isn't personal either , just a statement to you to look at the content of my post and not grade me on syntax.
Oh by the way I have nothing against flying heavy metal but the attitudes of some who may operate them.
I have incorrect spelling here too, but choose to leave it so you have something to do while responding to the content.
You, I can see are well versed in spelling and grammar and choose to "discuss' matters from an english teachers bent.
I would rather discuss the aviation issues and save my spelling and dictionary skills for my professional life as a pilot and letter writing.
I have a job and do not intend to apply for a position through PPRUNE to gain any further employment. This isn't personal either
, just a statement to you to look at the content of my post and not grade me on syntax.Oh by the way I have nothing against flying heavy metal but the attitudes of some who may operate them.
I have incorrect spelling here too, but choose to leave it so you have something to do while responding to the content.
ginjockey
The reality at my company is that over the last three years Cadet’s have a greater failure rate at attaining a command than pilots that come into the company with prior experience. Only 54% of trainees pass their command line check that were cadets or ex flight engineers compared to 85% that were direct entry pilots. These are the hard cold facts. Someone with prior ex GA experience doesn’t stand out from the crowd as any worse than someone with prior airline experience or military experience and that is from a pilot base of about 2000 individuals.
The reality at my company is that over the last three years Cadet’s have a greater failure rate at attaining a command than pilots that come into the company with prior experience. Only 54% of trainees pass their command line check that were cadets or ex flight engineers compared to 85% that were direct entry pilots. These are the hard cold facts. Someone with prior ex GA experience doesn’t stand out from the crowd as any worse than someone with prior airline experience or military experience and that is from a pilot base of about 2000 individuals.
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The company I work for seems to have been quite lucky with the cadets they have. These guys are well mannered, smart and proactive. They will however need to gain command time at some stage, how do they do this effectively if QF or another major don't take them on?
Does anyone know the cadet acceptance rate into the major carriers and any command delays compared to GA entry staff?
Does anyone know the cadet acceptance rate into the major carriers and any command delays compared to GA entry staff?
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Previous flying experience whether GA, military or whatever helps a pilot to maintain situational awareness when under pressure. It is the loss of this SA that is the main contributing factor in airline accidents. Some have it better than others.
I believe a good pilot is a good pilot no matter what he is flying. Notice I said good pilot not just a skilled pilot. Having grown up around GA maintenance I saw lots of skilled pilots march into the hangar demanding this and that with little respect or knowledge about what they were saying. I also saw the odd good pilot come in and have a discussion with an engineer and he would listen to the engineer and learn and the aeroplane would be fixed pronto.
What are these bad habits you all seem to talk of? What crap! Resting your foot on the dash is about the only bad habit there is room for in my company, other that it is SOP's which by design remove bad habits from the cockpit.
I believe a good pilot is a good pilot no matter what he is flying. Notice I said good pilot not just a skilled pilot. Having grown up around GA maintenance I saw lots of skilled pilots march into the hangar demanding this and that with little respect or knowledge about what they were saying. I also saw the odd good pilot come in and have a discussion with an engineer and he would listen to the engineer and learn and the aeroplane would be fixed pronto.
What are these bad habits you all seem to talk of? What crap! Resting your foot on the dash is about the only bad habit there is room for in my company, other that it is SOP's which by design remove bad habits from the cockpit.