Australian Friendliness-Where the hell has it gone?
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Australian Friendliness-Where the hell has it gone?
Times are changing, or has Oz aviation always been this way???
I am constantly flying with other guys in the flightdeck who make a point of slagging another oz carrier. It's bl##dy embarrassing.
Walking around in Australian airport terminals, you might pass another 'fellow' oz pilot from a different oz carrier, and you'll be lucky to get a friendly "g'day" these days.
Working in Singapore for awhile, I noticed the condascending attitude SOME QF pilots had towards the local controllers...again it's bl##dy embarrassing...
What's with the attitude??
Why do we think that we are god's gift to aviation?
In reality, Jet airline operations in Australia is mundane and boring....it's hardly a breeding ground for all round flight experience that one would surely need to call themselves a true god.
Try flying in asia or europe for awhile....add this experience to your oz flying...
Then you'll realise a few things.....
1. No one is infallable
2. No airline is infallable
3. That saying g'day to other pilots is actually a normal thing to do
4. Don't bash other airlines.....It's unprofessional and just plain boring
5. Enjoy living here, appreciate what a life we have.
R
I am constantly flying with other guys in the flightdeck who make a point of slagging another oz carrier. It's bl##dy embarrassing.
Walking around in Australian airport terminals, you might pass another 'fellow' oz pilot from a different oz carrier, and you'll be lucky to get a friendly "g'day" these days.
Working in Singapore for awhile, I noticed the condascending attitude SOME QF pilots had towards the local controllers...again it's bl##dy embarrassing...
What's with the attitude??
Why do we think that we are god's gift to aviation?
In reality, Jet airline operations in Australia is mundane and boring....it's hardly a breeding ground for all round flight experience that one would surely need to call themselves a true god.
Try flying in asia or europe for awhile....add this experience to your oz flying...
Then you'll realise a few things.....
1. No one is infallable
2. No airline is infallable
3. That saying g'day to other pilots is actually a normal thing to do
4. Don't bash other airlines.....It's unprofessional and just plain boring
5. Enjoy living here, appreciate what a life we have.
R
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In the States the other week. Some one referred to QANTAS as the Hitler youth due to the fact they think they're better than everyone else!!!
I'm sure it's only a few people in reality but unfortunately they're the ones that get noticed.
I'm sure it's only a few people in reality but unfortunately they're the ones that get noticed.
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I don't know about other people who read these forums, but personally I am bored senseless by these sorts of threads.
Generalize
1) intransitive verb make sweeping statement: to state a supposed general truth about something on the basis of limited or incomplete evidence
2) intransitive and transitive verb LOGIC make inference: to infer a general conclusion from particulars, or a universal statement from an instance
In my time in Qantas, I have flown with some d*ckheads and some dead-set legends. Some pilots in QF who were cadets are arrogant smart*rses and some are just smart and possess far better piloting skills than I had at their age.
Ramius1 - You cannot use a few isolated experiences to generalize a theory about QF or Australian airline pilots. All people are different - this is a concept that I try very hard to ingrain into my children.
The world witnessed the holocaust becuase of the generalization of a madman. We had 9/11 because another madman believes that all Westerners are evil.
We are all different - how about we try to grow up and move on a little from the threads that slag off at QF/VB/(insert name here) pilots based purely on sweeping generalizations.
Generalize
1) intransitive verb make sweeping statement: to state a supposed general truth about something on the basis of limited or incomplete evidence
2) intransitive and transitive verb LOGIC make inference: to infer a general conclusion from particulars, or a universal statement from an instance
Ramius1 - You cannot use a few isolated experiences to generalize a theory about QF or Australian airline pilots. All people are different - this is a concept that I try very hard to ingrain into my children.
The world witnessed the holocaust becuase of the generalization of a madman. We had 9/11 because another madman believes that all Westerners are evil.
We are all different - how about we try to grow up and move on a little from the threads that slag off at QF/VB/(insert name here) pilots based purely on sweeping generalizations.
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Spot on Ultralights!
I KNOW I am going to get caned and canned for this, but a LOT changed FOR THE WORSE in Australian aviation in 1989 - I dare ANYONE to dispute the fact.
Nothing is going to change whilst the ghosts of the past permeate the present.
I may dislike VERY much a particular pilot on the ground, but in the cockpit, professionalism prevails and you work as a team.
Because of the events of 1989, the industry became factionalised and separated, and it seems it may NEVER come back again whilst factions want to think of the greater good of one versus the greater good of ALL. Another ghost of 1989...
Would you believe I have even WITNESSED a "89 returnee" from one airline arguing with another "89 returnee" from another airline over who was the bigger "S word"! They made a distinction over that!!! So how can we ever expect to get ANYWHERE whilst there is still infighting?????????????????? It's downright childish and selfish.
In regards to QF mainline. Well, yes, they can be pompous and arrogant. That's the way a lot of them are, and that's the way a lot of them were indoctrinated. For a LONG time QF probably was the world's best airline, and the QF guys were justifiably proud. Unfortunately 6 star service has gone the way of the doddo, yet some still try to maintain the image QF worked so hard to achieve for so long. I don't see it as bad in some ways, just outdated considering QF has been well and truly surpassed by quite a few other airlines! QF is becoming an industry joke, and we all have Dixon and his crones to blame for that one. The day aviation is returned to those that know aviation, and not some pencil pushing accountant, and CEO's that know NOTHING, will be the day we all rejoice.
In the meantime, make an effort yourself to say g'day, extend the hand, or tip the hat. You may be surprised.
I KNOW I am going to get caned and canned for this, but a LOT changed FOR THE WORSE in Australian aviation in 1989 - I dare ANYONE to dispute the fact.
Nothing is going to change whilst the ghosts of the past permeate the present.
I may dislike VERY much a particular pilot on the ground, but in the cockpit, professionalism prevails and you work as a team.
Because of the events of 1989, the industry became factionalised and separated, and it seems it may NEVER come back again whilst factions want to think of the greater good of one versus the greater good of ALL. Another ghost of 1989...
Would you believe I have even WITNESSED a "89 returnee" from one airline arguing with another "89 returnee" from another airline over who was the bigger "S word"! They made a distinction over that!!! So how can we ever expect to get ANYWHERE whilst there is still infighting?????????????????? It's downright childish and selfish.
In regards to QF mainline. Well, yes, they can be pompous and arrogant. That's the way a lot of them are, and that's the way a lot of them were indoctrinated. For a LONG time QF probably was the world's best airline, and the QF guys were justifiably proud. Unfortunately 6 star service has gone the way of the doddo, yet some still try to maintain the image QF worked so hard to achieve for so long. I don't see it as bad in some ways, just outdated considering QF has been well and truly surpassed by quite a few other airlines! QF is becoming an industry joke, and we all have Dixon and his crones to blame for that one. The day aviation is returned to those that know aviation, and not some pencil pushing accountant, and CEO's that know NOTHING, will be the day we all rejoice.
In the meantime, make an effort yourself to say g'day, extend the hand, or tip the hat. You may be surprised.
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Threebars:
Thanks for your comments. I'm sorry you think that i'm trying to slag QF/VB etc. In fact the intention of the thread was quite the contrary. I'm merely trying to highlight my amazement and dismay at a very noticable trend in oz airline flying today. I have been flying jets in asia, europe, and oz for nearly 15 years. My comments are not based on "isolated" experiences as you suggest. But instead it has been based on almost weekly experiences both here and overseas. I have never noticed europeans and asians carrying on the way we do. Did '89 really cause all this?
Ultralights:
I wrote this thread partly because I have iniated pleasantries and had a mixed response. Because I work for a rival airline, does this mean that we should treat fellow pilots differently? Of course not. BTW the popcorn is good.
MK VIII:
Your comments are constructive and highlight part of the message that I wanted to convey. As I said to ultralights, I usually do say hi first...mixed responses. In europe and in asia (believe it or not), the guys are nearly always receptive.
R
Thanks for your comments. I'm sorry you think that i'm trying to slag QF/VB etc. In fact the intention of the thread was quite the contrary. I'm merely trying to highlight my amazement and dismay at a very noticable trend in oz airline flying today. I have been flying jets in asia, europe, and oz for nearly 15 years. My comments are not based on "isolated" experiences as you suggest. But instead it has been based on almost weekly experiences both here and overseas. I have never noticed europeans and asians carrying on the way we do. Did '89 really cause all this?
Ultralights:
I wrote this thread partly because I have iniated pleasantries and had a mixed response. Because I work for a rival airline, does this mean that we should treat fellow pilots differently? Of course not. BTW the popcorn is good.
MK VIII:
Your comments are constructive and highlight part of the message that I wanted to convey. As I said to ultralights, I usually do say hi first...mixed responses. In europe and in asia (believe it or not), the guys are nearly always receptive.
R
Last edited by Ramius1; 2nd Apr 2005 at 09:25.
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Lemme guess - you wear tan slacks and a white shirt, with a leather jacket in cold climes? And you work with F/A's derided by a lot here as vapid blonde bimbos?
How did I score on the psychic test?
And I even have a further sneaking suspicion exactly who you ARE
Unfortunately, the attitude you describe has permeated even to the new young talent as well. It is a shame. A lot even walk with their head down, not held high in pride as they used to. the position of pilot has been SO eroded in Australia, it is about as respected as a bus driver. After all, Hawke did equate us all to one, albeit glorified!
Times, they are a-changing...
How did I score on the psychic test?
And I even have a further sneaking suspicion exactly who you ARE
Unfortunately, the attitude you describe has permeated even to the new young talent as well. It is a shame. A lot even walk with their head down, not held high in pride as they used to. the position of pilot has been SO eroded in Australia, it is about as respected as a bus driver. After all, Hawke did equate us all to one, albeit glorified!
Times, they are a-changing...
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Most of the Qf heroes are prima donnas who sleep in the uniform, but there is a minority who are true blue normal blokes/gals who love the job no matter what the uniform or aircraft. The minority cringe when some one whose only exposure to aviation is with the red rat makes an obtuse remark. I would like to think they will grow out of it but I am not so sure.
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If someone can tell me how old the youngest person involved in the '89 dispute was at the time and then tell me when that persons sixty fifth birthday is I'll be able to tell you when the "89" problems will start to disappear! 
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By my reckoning, around 25 to 26 years to go!
I think your analysis will be correct too Omark44, considering how deep betrayal embeds itself in someone's psyche.
But, we are digressing too much from the centreline! A gentle tap on the pedals and bring this back into line...
I don't find the condescending tone Ramius found between QF and WSSS controllers at all uncommon. It seems endemic in a lot of professions dealing in Asia, let alone pilot. I find it ever so amusing to hear Customs officers and similar talking slow in stacchetto half-words to try to communicate with Asian people, or even raising their voice like it will somehow help! The ones that talk in syllables and raise their voice REALLY raise my hackles, and feel like having a gentle word in the idiots ear.
I have never found any Singaporean that was educated in Singapore difficult to anderstand. Some Malaysians, yes, but never a Singaporean. You just have to LISTEN. A pilot that talks on the radio in the aforementioned syllabic tones is not only a halfwit, he is endangering the flow of proper and fluent communication!
Qantas says they are one big happy family of companies, yet they are TOTALLY divided within themselves. You have MANY separate entities: Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Qantas Mainline, Qantas Domestic, Qantas Link, National Jet, and so on almost ad infinitum! Each of these separate entities seems to possess it's own contract of employment (which seems to change at the CEO's whim). Each of these entities seems NOT to be ACTUALLY compatible with each other in relation to contract, pay scale and award, aircraft, seniority and bidding, and infrastructure. And each PILOT does not necessarily belong to the same union / representative group, with AFAP, AIPA, TWU, and god alone knows what other representative organisation! Is it any wonder one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing in Qantas??????
One must wonder if Dixon has scripted out an enormous theatrical production, with staff as his actors, and the world his stage, with the government and shareholders writing and rewriting the script, and accountants sitting poised with calculator and a bottle of liquid paper ready to blot out something that doesn't fit the Qantas equation.
A nasty version of Othello if you will...
I think your analysis will be correct too Omark44, considering how deep betrayal embeds itself in someone's psyche.
But, we are digressing too much from the centreline! A gentle tap on the pedals and bring this back into line...
I don't find the condescending tone Ramius found between QF and WSSS controllers at all uncommon. It seems endemic in a lot of professions dealing in Asia, let alone pilot. I find it ever so amusing to hear Customs officers and similar talking slow in stacchetto half-words to try to communicate with Asian people, or even raising their voice like it will somehow help! The ones that talk in syllables and raise their voice REALLY raise my hackles, and feel like having a gentle word in the idiots ear.
I have never found any Singaporean that was educated in Singapore difficult to anderstand. Some Malaysians, yes, but never a Singaporean. You just have to LISTEN. A pilot that talks on the radio in the aforementioned syllabic tones is not only a halfwit, he is endangering the flow of proper and fluent communication!
Qantas says they are one big happy family of companies, yet they are TOTALLY divided within themselves. You have MANY separate entities: Jetstar, Jetstar Asia, Qantas Mainline, Qantas Domestic, Qantas Link, National Jet, and so on almost ad infinitum! Each of these separate entities seems to possess it's own contract of employment (which seems to change at the CEO's whim). Each of these entities seems NOT to be ACTUALLY compatible with each other in relation to contract, pay scale and award, aircraft, seniority and bidding, and infrastructure. And each PILOT does not necessarily belong to the same union / representative group, with AFAP, AIPA, TWU, and god alone knows what other representative organisation! Is it any wonder one hand doesn't know what the other one is doing in Qantas??????
One must wonder if Dixon has scripted out an enormous theatrical production, with staff as his actors, and the world his stage, with the government and shareholders writing and rewriting the script, and accountants sitting poised with calculator and a bottle of liquid paper ready to blot out something that doesn't fit the Qantas equation.
A nasty version of Othello if you will...
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Ramius
Ramius,
It was never there. Certainly in a group, their own environment, or after a few drinks. But on their own, one on one, Australians are in fact, a most shy and reserved people for the most part.
On your other point, unfortunately, Asian racism is endemic to mainstream Australian society (only not openly displayed). And vice versa to a lesser degree.
It was never there. Certainly in a group, their own environment, or after a few drinks. But on their own, one on one, Australians are in fact, a most shy and reserved people for the most part.
On your other point, unfortunately, Asian racism is endemic to mainstream Australian society (only not openly displayed). And vice versa to a lesser degree.
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Scrubbed,
Me thinks you take great offence at BEING ON that list propagated by said Tasmanian.
To wit, fat slob SIA man ignored you for a reason. Afterall, we NOT on the list walk THROUGH ghosts.
Failed the IQ test, maybe, but passed the check ride in terms of integrity, loyalty, BALLS, honour, discipline....... and went to a better paying and rewarding job than any award or airline in Australia ever offered.
Must start carrying a Berty Bettle clicker in the nav bag again.... CLICK CLICK, CLICK CLICK. Now, run along and play like a god cockroach...
Racism shown by Australians to asians is not as covert as so many think, and the reverse racism is VERY evident in Singapore especially. After all, we are all Ang Moh Kwee to them (Red Haired Devils). I lived and worked in Singapore for a long time, and it takes a LONG time for you to be fully accepted into a social structure - even then you know you are NOT "one of them" regardless. It's their country, so, you get over it.
The atitude SCRUBBED (how so incredibly apt a name!) serves no good purpose whatsoever, and only further erodes the professionalism of Australian pilots. If Scrubbed has not learnt by now (probably since Ansett collapsed and found himself in a backwater job in Asia because no one else wants him) how precise and anal Asian controllers are, then ship out Scrubbed. It's not going to change, and your total disregard for proper RT is a menace to us all.
I am sorry to have wallowed in the mud and slung some at this cockroach, but his attitude just riles me, and once again demonstrates the nature of so many of his fellow ghosts.
A word of advice Scabbed, er, Scrubbed, DON'T try to mend bridges, because those bridges were dynamited so MANY MANY years ago.
Moderator, please feel free to remove this, but at least leave it long enough for Scrubbed to read and comprehend! I do apologise the the transgression. The attitude shown is EXACTLY what Ramius was describing in the original post!
Me thinks you take great offence at BEING ON that list propagated by said Tasmanian.
To wit, fat slob SIA man ignored you for a reason. Afterall, we NOT on the list walk THROUGH ghosts.
Failed the IQ test, maybe, but passed the check ride in terms of integrity, loyalty, BALLS, honour, discipline....... and went to a better paying and rewarding job than any award or airline in Australia ever offered.
Must start carrying a Berty Bettle clicker in the nav bag again.... CLICK CLICK, CLICK CLICK. Now, run along and play like a god cockroach...
Racism shown by Australians to asians is not as covert as so many think, and the reverse racism is VERY evident in Singapore especially. After all, we are all Ang Moh Kwee to them (Red Haired Devils). I lived and worked in Singapore for a long time, and it takes a LONG time for you to be fully accepted into a social structure - even then you know you are NOT "one of them" regardless. It's their country, so, you get over it.
The atitude SCRUBBED (how so incredibly apt a name!) serves no good purpose whatsoever, and only further erodes the professionalism of Australian pilots. If Scrubbed has not learnt by now (probably since Ansett collapsed and found himself in a backwater job in Asia because no one else wants him) how precise and anal Asian controllers are, then ship out Scrubbed. It's not going to change, and your total disregard for proper RT is a menace to us all.
I am sorry to have wallowed in the mud and slung some at this cockroach, but his attitude just riles me, and once again demonstrates the nature of so many of his fellow ghosts.
A word of advice Scabbed, er, Scrubbed, DON'T try to mend bridges, because those bridges were dynamited so MANY MANY years ago.
Moderator, please feel free to remove this, but at least leave it long enough for Scrubbed to read and comprehend! I do apologise the the transgression. The attitude shown is EXACTLY what Ramius was describing in the original post!
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Scrubbed,
Many people have good reasons for remembering the date in history which effectivly ceased any pilot and union cohesian in Aust, and LOOK where it all is now.
As to S'Pore controlers, whilst not the most imaginative in the world, need to know when YOU want to descend, they don't have your exact profile in their heads as they have multiple types/weights etc to contend with as well as Nationalities who have quite different ways of doing things in similar A/C.
Also there is a "policy" of NOT using holding patterns at WSSS as going in circles means that the system can't handle the traffic, so you get vectors, best was for me a 40NM final all at 3000', SO as the controler has the cards/miles to go in his head, not yours things vary a lot as to when HE may think you need a descent.
Did my 10 yrs there, just enjoy the flying was the way to go.
As to Aussie Mateship, Qantas were on of the VERY FEW A/C who would flash landing lights when passing on the airways, or sometimes other carriers who by the voice had an Aussie crew???
C YA
Many people have good reasons for remembering the date in history which effectivly ceased any pilot and union cohesian in Aust, and LOOK where it all is now.
As to S'Pore controlers, whilst not the most imaginative in the world, need to know when YOU want to descend, they don't have your exact profile in their heads as they have multiple types/weights etc to contend with as well as Nationalities who have quite different ways of doing things in similar A/C.
Also there is a "policy" of NOT using holding patterns at WSSS as going in circles means that the system can't handle the traffic, so you get vectors, best was for me a 40NM final all at 3000', SO as the controler has the cards/miles to go in his head, not yours things vary a lot as to when HE may think you need a descent.
Did my 10 yrs there, just enjoy the flying was the way to go.
As to Aussie Mateship, Qantas were on of the VERY FEW A/C who would flash landing lights when passing on the airways, or sometimes other carriers who by the voice had an Aussie crew???
C YA
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I have to go through LAX quite a lot these days as I get to airline to work, in order to start my tours.
The QF guys I've met have been very friendly, well presented and very conversational. I don't reckon there's a problem at all.
The QF guys I've met have been very friendly, well presented and very conversational. I don't reckon there's a problem at all.