CASA reply to PPRuNe email re TVL.

[Mainframe]

Well, did Four Corners get to Townsville?

Have they filmed Batman and Robin?

I guess we need to wait and see when it goes to air, if it does.

[Stink Finger]

Very recently Pinnochio had the opportunity, and stepped up to the plate, to make an ass of himself at YHID.

Pinnochio and company ramped a very junior pilot who was flying a Class B single engine piston aircraft at YHID.

During this two tremendous crimes were commited by the pilot:

1. Having luggage secured by means of seat belt on a empty passenger seat ( not control seat and baggage weighing about 25 kg) ,

2. Removing and re-installing a seat in the aircraft.

The pilot was set apon by pinnochio ( verbally), publicly berated in front of his peers for these terrible crimes.

When they were shown the relevant, what do you call those things,,,,ummm,,,, regulations that allowed all of the above, they responded by informing the pilot they were not going to write up RCA's for these offences.

What a very very poor show, if you make a mistake Pinnochio, have the balls to admit it.

Do you think this pilot ( or anyone else that witnessed this show )has a very high opinion of CASA's representation.

[Torres]

They have a long history, almost without exception, of making fools of themselves in the Straits to the extent on one previous occasion, the Director himself went to personally witness this den on inniquity!

Times have changed. Some faces have changed. Philosophy remains the same!

[gaunty]

Stink Finger

When they were shown the relevant, what do you call those things,,,,ummm,,,, regulations that allowed all of the above, they responded by informing the pilot they were not going to write up RCA's for these offences.

How very decent of them.

As the operator I would at the the very least have demanded a personal apology to the youngster, followed by a fairly vigorous "please explain" to B1 and 2 with stat decs from witnesses, cc'd to the Minister and the opposition shadow. If you put it writing they are bound to reply.

Squawking about it here might make you feel better, but will not bring any tangible results.
Just make sure you have your facts clear and calmy communicated.

[Stink Finger]

Squawking about it here , is the means by which we are starting to see action.

As has previously been pointed out, many many letters, many many CP's and MD have made the journey to CB, apparently 700 odd complaints, and Lil Ol Pprune seems to be the most direct and effective medium.

[Woomera]

Well, at least this thread has been read 18,496 times ........ and I'll wager a few of those were in the building on the corner of Northbourne Avenue & Barry Drive Canberra.



Woomera

[Captain Starlight]

Stinkfinger

Always delighted to see your presence on this thread.

Pinoccio's desire to please his "illustrious leader" knows no bounds. Such is the nature of his desire to please.

Let him enjoy himself. Having been sacked or asked to leave from virtually any aviation job he's had is quite a cross to bear.

Little does he realise that his past form will result in yet another career change, out of aviation.

As for his "illustrious leader", his time too is nigh.

With regard to the NQAO, there may be a "coming out" party soon.
This office features more little men with mustaches than Oxford St, Paddington at Mardi Gras time.

Either there is an enclave with a particular proclivity for the bizarre,
or there is a resident revivalist movement for the Hitler adoration society.

This is not a venue for normal Australians, with normal Australian values.

That it is a publicly funded enclave is serious cause for concern.

[Mainframe]

CS and Stinky

The Dawn of the New Day is rapidly approaching.

Until it does,
no pilot ramped by the dysfunctional NQAO should permit the ramp check to proceed without
recording the event, preferably by video, or having a police officer present.

The area manager, and Bruce Byron, need irrefutable evidence of the misconduct practiced by this office.

Until such times as the Area Manager removes the problem, you are advised that a police presence
may be your only defence to what Batman and Robin, and a few inept AWI's,
can do to your career, your livelihood or your business.

Eventually the misfits will be identified, until they do, either protect yourself with a police witness,
or record the event, or simply refuse to participate until such arrangements can be made.

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe and Stinkfinger

Four Corners, ABC, Monday Night, 8:30pm 4th July.

Windmill Tilting TLFO ?

Recognition of 52 fatalities achievement ?

Let's get the SAFETY back into CASA.

[Mainframe]

technically excellent filming and reporting, but why did they go soft on CASA.

Understand that that only 10% of material researched and documented by team was shown.

Is there a stand alone CASA expose coming up soon, or did the legal department put the brakes on?

Bet there was some relief in Townsville tonight, hope it's short lived and the story is "to be continued".

[Woomera]

It would be reasonable that legal issues may have limited the scope of the program. Indeed, I think the producers demonstrated professionalism in not preempting the ATSB Report.

Overall, an excellent program.

I got the distinct impression I saw Disco Stu's pussy Tipsey coughing up a fur ball on the ABC Forum!!

Woomera

[gaunty]

Hmmmmmmm much more of a whimper than a bang.

Brian made the most relevant comments re cost per seat regional v city, Brians X three times is probably on the light side.
By definition it is simply not possible to charge anything remotely approaching mainline seat mile costs for regional services.
Why do they persist in trying to make the punishment fit the crime.
And they were trying to "top" up revenue by going into LHR with $100 seats. to defend their route against a "bigger" by that I presume they meant real airline.
Excuse me, it would cost at the very least an extra $5-600 for the extra landing and takeoff (forget about landing fees I'm talking about operational costs) there in addition to the overflight costs.
I doubt the traffic would support that.
As usual they confuse cash flow with profit.

But I forget the "airline" was only the marketing arm for the various aircraft operators utilised.

We need aviation equity in the remote regional areas, subsidised to the same standard as the City folks get. Period.

Capt on $21,000 and a promotion to $31,000 and they expect us to take em seriously, the "anon" ex pilot was smarter than the rest making more money driving a truck, and nowadays the trucking rules are probably stricter than in that part of aviation.

Each and every young pilot who accepts "work" under those conditions should hang their head in shame and take their share of responsibility for the state of the industry. They have no absolutely no right to complain about their lot.

1 Million dollar "airliners" ferchrissakes and we wonder why they have trouble rounding up the $60,000 for the EGPWS.
If the Chief Pilot actually knew what one of them things was for, he wasn't letting on.
He gave a disgraceful performance, I'd like to see him in the witness stand, a properly instructed boy barrister even, would do him over.

From what I saw the locals should stay afraid, very afraid until either local airline get, taken down and the "bigger" mob can start to charge the real fare or the Government gets the message and subsidises a real airline, maybe even the local one, with real airline aircraft or both instead of using peoples lives, wannabe pilots and hand me down clunkers.

CASA can only regulate what the Government mandates as policy, it's no good shouting at CASA (well except on the TVL business which is another issue entirely), the Government are the only ones who can mandate the fundamental changes required in our regional services and the way and with what they are operated.

What the operators do not seem to understand is that they would be able to operate real airline aircraft with real pilots, making real profits, its immensely satisfying, if they would all shoot at the right target.

I'll give them a clue, It's not CASA.

Brian knows precisely what and how it needs to be done.

Hmmmmmmm much more of a whimper than a bang.

maybe not, maybe that butterfly fluttering its wings in the rainforest just might start the storm of the century.

[Stink Finger]

"Each and every young pilot who accepts "work" under those conditions should hang their head in shame and take their share of responsibility for the state of the industry. They have no absolutely no right to complain about their lot."

I couldn't agree more, if any of these young pilots, or scum bags that have worked for free send me a CV it's straight in the round filing cabinet under my desk.

As was pointed out, it is actually illegal for people to be paid this poorly, the AFAP is one by one rounding these operators into the Industrial Relations Court to try and enforce the award. This would not be necesarry if QLD IR had the balls to mandate the AFAP award as a state accepted award, is most other states they already have, as we have seen in the various NAC threads.

Why would Les allow himself to be the scape goat for the time frame for the introduction of EGPWS, if he said " Yes, EGPWS would have probably evaded this accident", ever heard the term duty of care, someone would certainly be throwing those words at Les in a witness box.

[gaunty]

Stink Finger

With respect

Why would Les allow himself to be the scape goat for the time frame for the introduction of EGPWS, if he said " Yes, EGPWS would have probably evaded this accident", ever heard the term duty of care, someone would certainly be throwing those words at Les in a witness box.

5 years is plenty of time and if the aircraft in question was "new" into Australia, were there aircraft in the US market with it already installed? There seem to be many (maybe the other 58 in Oz) either already equipped or retroed.
In any event the status would have been known and the installation a priority perhaps even during the C of A. Dollars.

It's the difference between proactive and reactive safety management.

It is within the power of CASA to regulate the specification of "new" additions before a C of A is issued, such that it must comply with current and future known requirements prior.

"Duty of care" is here a two edged sword, a court would very quickly decide which edge was the sharper. The Chief Pilot of such an organisation should know very well how it works. I could not determine it from the programme but it is even possible that other aircraft in the fleet have already been operating with it.
You can't have it both ways.

IMHO on the balance of probabilities an EGPWS WOULD have prevented this accident, assuming the crew were not totally negligent.

Probing deeper, the comments on the 4 Corners Forum and elsewhere, confirm an aerodynamic observation of the type as being "difficult to handle with a narrow band of flight parameters". We could simply start with the wing and power loading. The aircraft started out as a Queen Air, the MTOW is now close to double.
Why then no autopilot? Dollars?.
I know the answer but it is not the point. Most new FBW airline aircraft simply could not be flown without computer intervention and that's dollars but dollars spent on making them more efficient.
In this case given the above an autopilot should be mandated.
Shades of the time CAA/CASA permitted <5700kg turbine aircraft to NOT carry radar, I think at the time because of operators cries of the "cost" of repair and maintenance. Dollars?
How do you safely and efficiently operate a turbine without radar?

I guess this is the "affordable safety" process in action.

[gaunty]

JetA_OK

I find it amusing that you still compare the Metro 23 to the Metro 1 aircraft that Ed Swearingen played with in the 60s. With the exception of the Metro name they are very different aircraft - granted though, this doesn't suit your argument.

may I suggest you google Straw Man, then examine your comment above against what you find.

I think if we want to change this we need to direct our energies at government policy rather than operators.

you obviously haven't been reading my posts over the years.

Yes Govt policy AND the operators. It is they who have lobbied the bar down not up with Government, Fed and State.

From another thread

Clunker C90s killing your irreplaceable and priceless top medical men seems counterproductive to me.

Why are they still mired in the thinking that deep discounts on seats at a level below costs into a new port is going to save them. You do that to put cream on the cake not to make it.

Whilst they continue to employ pilots at third world wages and all of the usual fol de rol that goes on predating each others markets and so on in the race to the bottom, I remain deaf to the operators who cry foul on the regulator.

[Mainframe]

Gaunty and JetA_ok,

Excellent commentary and observations, however maybe it should be on the Lockhart River Thread.
(This one is dedicated to the dysfunctional Townsville office of CASA)

It is regrettable that the other operator on the Cairns Bamaga service, using a Brasilia,
is now caught out with the EGPWS deadline.

Given that EMB120, P2-HLA was put on the Australian register as VH-RPX only in the last 12 months,
how could it have slipped through certification without EGPWS?

This is another example of CASA dropping the ball or having selective vision.
It is unlikely that the Townsville office was involved in this case.

There is no doubt that this operator has the financial wherewithal to remedy this,
and it is reasonable to expect that this aircraft, the right one for the route,
will be back in service asap.

Now back to CASA and Townsville.

.CASA Nth Qld Area Office

B1 (Bruce Byron) and entourage will be escaping the Canberra cold and meeting the industry this week.

It may be a good idea for all up north able to attend to do so.

Question time will be limited, don't waste time with trivial questions, ask concise but hard hitting ones.

Don't be afraid of the presence of the "Illustrious Leader", his credibility is now under very careful scrutiny,
and his days of bastardising, bullying and harassment are just about over.
(Keep an eye open for the Oxford St, Paddington, look a likes.)

If you have factual, not anecdotal, problems with his leadership, express it, the protectors won't be able to dilute or distort it.

This is one of the few occasions when B1 can get direct feedback without it being edited by his subordinates


Details of the venue are:


Cairns Aviation Skills Centre:
1 Tom McDonald Drive, General Aviation Area, Cairns Airport
Date: 10:00 - 13:00, Thursday 7th July 2005

Southbank Hotel and Convention Centre
17 - 23 Palmer St, South Townsville
Date: 10:00- 13:00, Friday 8th July 2005.

Please don't let B1 leave town with the impression that there is no problem with this office,
or that the Skehill report was the final solution.

If no one speaks up, that will be the message he takes back with him.

[gaunty]

JetA_OK

I expect there is much with which we are in heated agreement, but I am not the least bit myopic, too long sighted maybe.

Not all of them require your insight in order to improve their business.

it's not just my insight, but that of the FAA and many others in Australia.

The public certainly doesn't get it and I'm fairly certain that many of the operators of whom you speak would know of which I speak at the most fundamental level.

It's got nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to fly or operate any particular type of aircraft within (or without) the regulations.

I have been banging on about Government support/subsidy for remote community ops for as long as I can remember.

I have run operations that were so, succesfully at a fully viable and profitable by formal accounting standards Govt subsidised revenue rate and with then state of the art machinery.

The writing was on the wall for that, when DCA lost the "assumed" power to regulate entry into the market on economic in addition to safety.

It was a requirement of issue and continuation of your AOC that you demonstrate, annually, that you had the financial capacity to fulfil your AOC obligations. That required demonstrating a formal business case and the capital backing requirement. And yes to add equipment we had to put in more capital.


It was the operators who demonstrated to the Government that they, by using ever older and cheaper equipment, could operate the same service without subsidy that did those services in and the race to the bottom was on.

These fares today are actually lower in real dollar terms than they were then.

We live with this historical background noise to this day.

The rates whether charter or RPT have never recovered to the level at which they should be and we are and have been for the last 20 years suffering from permanent "sticker shock".

Very few made the transition from FAR23 to FAR25 ops. The new CAO 20.7.1b refers at long last to SFAR41, but we are still about 15 years behind the US transport category policy on that.

The use of these SFAR41 types is in the US embargoed for new startups and replacement of existing fleet and sunset is fixed for 2010.
Australia has become a dumping ground for this obsolescent and uneconomic equipment.

My discussions have revealed a reluctance to take it to the appropriate level on the basis of cost. Well, some of us have just paid some of that price.

The regulation that they could not not offer a charter service over an RPT route more than a couple of times a month to protect the subsidised RPT operator was universally ignored.

It was the practise for these operators to work out their RPT rates as a seat function of the relevant charter rates plus a bit and plan services as a means of topping off charter utilisation rather than as a stand alone business exercise.
Very few understood the statistical black holes that would consume them at charter seat rates.
If they can't see their way on that then if there is a mining community nearby they will sell a FIFO service at the equivalent or less of the nearest RPT fare. What chance is there for the local community?

By definition RPT has to be more expensive than charter and it is only with Bras/SAAB type aircraft that the economics and stats can be made to work.

We insist that Telstra has a universal service obligation to the bush for social equity in communication, what happened to transport communication.

And yes this should be in the LHR thread.

Woomera where are we when we need you.

Aerotropics was not the operator in question. Don't confuse their wage structures (which are apparently sub par) and possible dubious marketing methods with the actual operator who was Transair.

so at whom do the victims families shoot at then. On whose airline were they buying a airline ticket. I think it's called a cannon shot.

[Captain Starlight]

Mainframe and Stinkfinger

or anyone else who may have heard.

Any feedback from the Cairns Industry forum?

Did Batman and Robin appear? (love the new batmobile!)

Is there a new day dawning?

your comments, please?

CS

[Mainframe]

Stinkfinger

Settle down and be patient, there's still Townsville today.

These meetings are both a PR exercise and Market Research.
They cost a lot of money and because it is publicly funded,
a result can be expected,

When is the question, as well as what.

Please give B1 and NH credit for having the courage to face a very disillusioned group of stakeholders,
who expected a lot more from them.

They are not faceless bureaucrats,
they want to listen, and those affected have the chance to meet them face to face,
and express, in a civil manner, their disappointments and their satisfaction.

This is a Byron initiative that sets his leadership apart from all previous CASA regimes,
he is not a demigod,
and he's obviously not just talking the talk, it appears he is also willing to be a very good listener.

The industry is dying, and he is conscious of that.

MF

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect, I've heard about "industries dieing" before. I always take these pronouncements with a very large grain of salt.

On closer inspection, one usually finds that there are members of the industry concerned making money hand over fist, but keeping very very quiet about it. It's the less successful that complain. When you compare the two types of operators it becomes obvious that the poorer ones are badly managed or have either under, or over invested.

I think some hard data on operators would be needed to convince Government that GA was in fact "Dieing".