Crack grounds NZ Hercules in Indonesia
It is interesting to list worldwide operators of F16's. Despite NZ not believing this capability warranted, many other nations do.
ZK-NSJ you jest surely! Helen has probably ( please confirm ) either ripped the guts out of your Orions or by refusal to upgrade, may well have stripped their ASW capability anyway.
But you want to talk sub's. OK.
Firstly, the Collins class was required to stalk, hunt and evade a sub-surface and surface enemy in a high threat, Cold War environment such as the South China Sea- China and Russian navies. Potentially, it could be more successful in some roles than the big hunter-killer USN sub's.
Most problems have been addressed. Regionally, it is debatable if any country could counter Australian submarines. In Timor Australian sub's at an elemental level of operational capability, played some small and undisclosed roles- special forces insertion, surveillance and deterrence.
SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE-
Riled by Western support for the corrupt government of Northern Kamaria, a previously unheard of terrorist group, with links to Jemiah Islamiah and with financial and spiritual backing from local religious schools, launches a terror offensive.
Soft Western targets the priority. Assasinations of expat workers leads to a well headed Travel Warning from Western governments. Targets have dried up.
The terrorist group looks to a developing Asian nation a few hundred miles to it's west - the country called Trulyasia . A haven for Western tourists and with common religious and ethnic links to Northern Kamaria.
Using fishing boats to position it's Jihad Warriors, the terrorist groups' strike is brutal and receives regional condemnation. Hundreds of foreign tourists are lined up and executed. The baulk are holidaying Australians and New Zealanders.
Regional governments, such as the Islamic Republic of Kamaria, say the action is piracy incident and not religious terrorism. An internal and criminal matter for the government of Northern Kamaria to deal with.
Western intelligence services ascertain the terror group has two coastal training bases in Northern Kamaria. The group has financial backing from religious schools, themselves financially backed innoccuously, by a Middle East oil kingdom.
The Australian and New Zealand government are mortified by the emergence of a new terror threat in the region and with their brutal success. The friendly but corrupt Northern Kamaria governent has a tenuos hold on power; it's military battling lawlessness and rebellion in the areas where the terrorists have their bases.
The Islamic Republic of Kamaria senses possible military action from Australia and diplomatically reinforces it's stance on a piracy incident and not terrorism. It cancels overflight rights for Australian and New Zealand miltary traffic transiting the region. Australian signals intelligence units in Darwin and ELINT aircraft warn the government of heightened Kamarian fighter activity.
A quick strike against terrorist instllations, by the long arm of Australia's defence force- tanker supported JSF's- could create more regional problems than it solves, as Kamaria has by it's actions and piracy stance, obviously refused overflight rights by Australian bombers to strike Northern Kamaria . The RAAF is ruled out from any reprisal strikes.
ANZAC co-operation is also impossible. The New Zealand Defence Force is unbalanced by complete block obsolence and investment in unsuitable resources.
Under the guise of a naval exercise, Collin's Class submarines HMAS Rankin, HMAS Waller and HMAS Sheean sail south from Sydney Heads, before under the cover of darkness sailing north to rendezvoux with a fleet oiler to refuel and pick up their cargo of SAS soldiers and Clearance Divers.
HMAS Shean and Rankin, with Waller as backup, position off the coast of the terrorist bases in Northern Kamaria. Depositing their commando's by night and by stealth. Both bases are surrounded by well equiped commando's, with night fighting capabilities and long range sniper weapons.
Sleeping terrorists fail to note the glow on the horizon, the quiet investment by Australia's government years before, the modification of Harpoon missiles with a land attack capabilityand GPS precision.
Before the missiles hit, informed by data link, the commandos open fire bringing sleeping terrorists into the open. The missiles hit home. SAS commando's move through the fire and debris taking no prisoners before using their zodiacs to return to the submarines.
Although the action is publically backed by Northern Kamaria post strike, regional nations such as the the Islamic Republic of Kamaria and Trulyasia express disquiet over Australia's offensive.
New Zealand, though recognised in the region as being militarily impotent, pushes for a United Nations joint effort and won't publically support Australia's pre-emptive strike policies. A United Nation's Joint Pacific Anti-Piracy Sub- Committe is formed and proudly chaired by former New Zealand Labour Party politicians.
It is a solemn day, at RAAF Base Darwin, a flight of Australian Hercules aircraft have repatriated the bodies of New Zealand and Australians who were victims of the slaughter in Trulyasia. New Zealand soldiers form a Guard of Honour, flown into Darwin on a chartered Air New Zealand aircraft. Politely declining offers by Australia to fly home New Zealand's dead, Helen Clarke quietly charters a freighter aircraft, hoping to avoid political embarrassment at the groundings of the RNZAF transport fleet - this time due a spare parts fiasco.
Australia is further frustrated, by the New Zealand governments refusal, to jointly pressure the Middle East oil kingdom against funding religious boarding schools in the region. New Zealand does not believe a hard line stance is warranted, concerned a backlash may jeopardise it's live sheep exports to the Middle East
ZK-NSJ you jest surely! Helen has probably ( please confirm ) either ripped the guts out of your Orions or by refusal to upgrade, may well have stripped their ASW capability anyway.
But you want to talk sub's. OK.
Firstly, the Collins class was required to stalk, hunt and evade a sub-surface and surface enemy in a high threat, Cold War environment such as the South China Sea- China and Russian navies. Potentially, it could be more successful in some roles than the big hunter-killer USN sub's.
Most problems have been addressed. Regionally, it is debatable if any country could counter Australian submarines. In Timor Australian sub's at an elemental level of operational capability, played some small and undisclosed roles- special forces insertion, surveillance and deterrence.
SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE-
Riled by Western support for the corrupt government of Northern Kamaria, a previously unheard of terrorist group, with links to Jemiah Islamiah and with financial and spiritual backing from local religious schools, launches a terror offensive.
Soft Western targets the priority. Assasinations of expat workers leads to a well headed Travel Warning from Western governments. Targets have dried up.
The terrorist group looks to a developing Asian nation a few hundred miles to it's west - the country called Trulyasia . A haven for Western tourists and with common religious and ethnic links to Northern Kamaria.
Using fishing boats to position it's Jihad Warriors, the terrorist groups' strike is brutal and receives regional condemnation. Hundreds of foreign tourists are lined up and executed. The baulk are holidaying Australians and New Zealanders.
Regional governments, such as the Islamic Republic of Kamaria, say the action is piracy incident and not religious terrorism. An internal and criminal matter for the government of Northern Kamaria to deal with.
Western intelligence services ascertain the terror group has two coastal training bases in Northern Kamaria. The group has financial backing from religious schools, themselves financially backed innoccuously, by a Middle East oil kingdom.
The Australian and New Zealand government are mortified by the emergence of a new terror threat in the region and with their brutal success. The friendly but corrupt Northern Kamaria governent has a tenuos hold on power; it's military battling lawlessness and rebellion in the areas where the terrorists have their bases.
The Islamic Republic of Kamaria senses possible military action from Australia and diplomatically reinforces it's stance on a piracy incident and not terrorism. It cancels overflight rights for Australian and New Zealand miltary traffic transiting the region. Australian signals intelligence units in Darwin and ELINT aircraft warn the government of heightened Kamarian fighter activity.
A quick strike against terrorist instllations, by the long arm of Australia's defence force- tanker supported JSF's- could create more regional problems than it solves, as Kamaria has by it's actions and piracy stance, obviously refused overflight rights by Australian bombers to strike Northern Kamaria . The RAAF is ruled out from any reprisal strikes.
ANZAC co-operation is also impossible. The New Zealand Defence Force is unbalanced by complete block obsolence and investment in unsuitable resources.
Under the guise of a naval exercise, Collin's Class submarines HMAS Rankin, HMAS Waller and HMAS Sheean sail south from Sydney Heads, before under the cover of darkness sailing north to rendezvoux with a fleet oiler to refuel and pick up their cargo of SAS soldiers and Clearance Divers.
HMAS Shean and Rankin, with Waller as backup, position off the coast of the terrorist bases in Northern Kamaria. Depositing their commando's by night and by stealth. Both bases are surrounded by well equiped commando's, with night fighting capabilities and long range sniper weapons.
Sleeping terrorists fail to note the glow on the horizon, the quiet investment by Australia's government years before, the modification of Harpoon missiles with a land attack capabilityand GPS precision.
Before the missiles hit, informed by data link, the commandos open fire bringing sleeping terrorists into the open. The missiles hit home. SAS commando's move through the fire and debris taking no prisoners before using their zodiacs to return to the submarines.
Although the action is publically backed by Northern Kamaria post strike, regional nations such as the the Islamic Republic of Kamaria and Trulyasia express disquiet over Australia's offensive.
New Zealand, though recognised in the region as being militarily impotent, pushes for a United Nations joint effort and won't publically support Australia's pre-emptive strike policies. A United Nation's Joint Pacific Anti-Piracy Sub- Committe is formed and proudly chaired by former New Zealand Labour Party politicians.
It is a solemn day, at RAAF Base Darwin, a flight of Australian Hercules aircraft have repatriated the bodies of New Zealand and Australians who were victims of the slaughter in Trulyasia. New Zealand soldiers form a Guard of Honour, flown into Darwin on a chartered Air New Zealand aircraft. Politely declining offers by Australia to fly home New Zealand's dead, Helen Clarke quietly charters a freighter aircraft, hoping to avoid political embarrassment at the groundings of the RNZAF transport fleet - this time due a spare parts fiasco.
Australia is further frustrated, by the New Zealand governments refusal, to jointly pressure the Middle East oil kingdom against funding religious boarding schools in the region. New Zealand does not believe a hard line stance is warranted, concerned a backlash may jeopardise it's live sheep exports to the Middle East
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 27th Jan 2005 at 04:39.
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ZK-NSJ you jest surely! Helen has probably ( please confirm ) either ripped the guts out of your Orions or by refusal to upgrade, may well have stripped their ASW capability anyway.
I can confirm and refer to page 3 of this post. Unbelievable!
I also remember a time within the last decade of an Orion being retro-fitted with a Link 11 system off a Frigate in dry-dock so it can talk to friendlies.
I can confirm that the NZ SAS is hampered by no air srtike capability at home to train with for FAC, however, gained a Unit Citation from the US for their high standard of operations in Afg. They are a VERY capable force. They do have all the best kit.
The Hercs did a fine job in Afg, but you here nothing about that...
I can confirm that the Army radios have been replaced and are top of the line, if not above the line.
Also that the Army now has air defence capability (somewhat lacking in Europe and causing the Army to be "Looked after" by allies).
New vehicles (not LAVs) are in service and soon to be fitted with 40mm auto grenade launchers.
We wouldn't deploy LAV's in airborne platforms. Although they ARE air transportable. (Akl to Ohakea...) I understand that the AusLAV's are similar in weight...
And remember that National did a lot as well to run down the defence...
I can confirm and refer to page 3 of this post. Unbelievable!
I also remember a time within the last decade of an Orion being retro-fitted with a Link 11 system off a Frigate in dry-dock so it can talk to friendlies.
I can confirm that the NZ SAS is hampered by no air srtike capability at home to train with for FAC, however, gained a Unit Citation from the US for their high standard of operations in Afg. They are a VERY capable force. They do have all the best kit.
The Hercs did a fine job in Afg, but you here nothing about that...
I can confirm that the Army radios have been replaced and are top of the line, if not above the line.
Also that the Army now has air defence capability (somewhat lacking in Europe and causing the Army to be "Looked after" by allies).
New vehicles (not LAVs) are in service and soon to be fitted with 40mm auto grenade launchers.
We wouldn't deploy LAV's in airborne platforms. Although they ARE air transportable. (Akl to Ohakea...) I understand that the AusLAV's are similar in weight...
And remember that National did a lot as well to run down the defence...
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national ordered the f-16's just before the election that they knew they were gonna lose, problem instantly handed to the new govt who happened to be led by a professional protester,
the problem with the election this time round is that national is now led by a professionl bean counter (former head of the reserve bank) will he be any different, who knows, certainly couldnt be worse,
we must also remember in timor, there was one particular airstrip they aussies wouldnt touch in ther hercules, too short they said, then the kiwis went in anyway with a aussie crew along for the ride, we may not hve the best kit, but we get the job done
the problem with the election this time round is that national is now led by a professionl bean counter (former head of the reserve bank) will he be any different, who knows, certainly couldnt be worse,
we must also remember in timor, there was one particular airstrip they aussies wouldnt touch in ther hercules, too short they said, then the kiwis went in anyway with a aussie crew along for the ride, we may not hve the best kit, but we get the job done
Evertonian
gsf Thanks for the tip! I've read the one about Santa, but I'm looking forward to grabbing a copy of the Tooth Fairy. Is that another story about Helen?
ZK-NSJ They probably didn't want to scratch those shiny NEW Hercs we'd just taken delivery of! Besides, your blokes were probably hoping for an insurance claim...do they have one of those "new for old" policies on the Hercs?
ZK-NSJ They probably didn't want to scratch those shiny NEW Hercs we'd just taken delivery of! Besides, your blokes were probably hoping for an insurance claim...do they have one of those "new for old" policies on the Hercs?
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there was one particular airstrip they aussies wouldnt touch in ther hercules, too short they said, then the kiwis went in anyway with a aussie crew along for the ride
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national ordered the f-16's just before the election that they knew they were gonna lose, problem instantly handed to the new govt who happened to be led by a professional protester
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The F16 deal was sweet, they were basically giving the damn things to us.
Like it has been said many times, proir to uncle Hellen becoming PM she was portesting down on the docks when the A4's arrived. She wanted to scrap the airforce for years and with National losing that election it just made life easy for her (him)
.
Every country needs some sort of airforce especailly when it has agreements with neighbouring countries (oz) to protect part of there boarders. I was under the impression that Mr Brash publicly supported reinstaing parts of the airforce and honouring all deals to continue upgrading our under financed and over commited defence forces. IT IS YOUR VOTE!!!!!!!!!! (kiwis anyway
)
splat
Like it has been said many times, proir to uncle Hellen becoming PM she was portesting down on the docks when the A4's arrived. She wanted to scrap the airforce for years and with National losing that election it just made life easy for her (him)
. Every country needs some sort of airforce especailly when it has agreements with neighbouring countries (oz) to protect part of there boarders. I was under the impression that Mr Brash publicly supported reinstaing parts of the airforce and honouring all deals to continue upgrading our under financed and over commited defence forces. IT IS YOUR VOTE!!!!!!!!!! (kiwis anyway
)splat
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Never voted for the commie cow and never would
While the general slagging of us Kiwis is rather irritating, I think a few posters are using the oppotunity to vent at NZ in general, however, tarring us all with the same brush is not even close to accurate. If you happened to notice, which I don't think you have, (which leaves ALL you Aussies open to some choice comments) you will have seen that every Kiwi agrees with you on the assessment that the government here has let things slip and that the equipment our services are left to deal with is substandard, there are no arguments against that claim. Yes, we need strike fighters, yes, we need a decent airlift and support capability, yes the Navy needs more ships and the Army needs better eqiupment. No, the current government wont do anything about it. I am not in the Air Force, but I feel for the guys and girls that are, they are doing the best job they can with some old and substandard equipment. Play the ball, not the man, you might get a better discussion. If you just want to slag off Kiwis, it may be time to grow up.
While the general slagging of us Kiwis is rather irritating, I think a few posters are using the oppotunity to vent at NZ in general, however, tarring us all with the same brush is not even close to accurate. If you happened to notice, which I don't think you have, (which leaves ALL you Aussies open to some choice comments) you will have seen that every Kiwi agrees with you on the assessment that the government here has let things slip and that the equipment our services are left to deal with is substandard, there are no arguments against that claim. Yes, we need strike fighters, yes, we need a decent airlift and support capability, yes the Navy needs more ships and the Army needs better eqiupment. No, the current government wont do anything about it. I am not in the Air Force, but I feel for the guys and girls that are, they are doing the best job they can with some old and substandard equipment. Play the ball, not the man, you might get a better discussion. If you just want to slag off Kiwis, it may be time to grow up.
The F16's would not only have to be cheap, the Americans would have to subsidise their day to day costs aswell. Sort of what Australia did with the Skyhawks.
Despite an arms embargo, Indonesia maintains more operational Hercules than the Kiwi's. Just to stay on topic!
gsf
Was the scenario too unrealisistic? The capabilities beyond the ADF? Or are you just another very secure resident of the far South Pacific?
The region is not benign. The protagonists in the simple scenario could have been the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia. The terrorist group the brutal but disjointed Abu Sayyaf and the "innocuos" funding from Wahabi followers in Saudia Arabia.
The capabilities are operational with the ADF. The ad hoc cruise missile of the latest Block Harpoon to be supplanted by the controverial longer range weapons under evaluation- these will equip naval frigates ( probably not the sub's to avoid upsetting the neighbours ) and air forces.
Possibly scenarios in our region are frightfully easy to create- total anarchy in PNG, coup or revolution in Indonesia, natural disasters in the South Pacific, tension in the South China Sea etc.
New Zealand used to have the ability to integrate useful assets into a coalition to combat threats. Every budget more capability is lost and little enhanced or replaced. They are bludging!
Despite an arms embargo, Indonesia maintains more operational Hercules than the Kiwi's. Just to stay on topic!
gsf
Was the scenario too unrealisistic? The capabilities beyond the ADF? Or are you just another very secure resident of the far South Pacific?
The region is not benign. The protagonists in the simple scenario could have been the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia. The terrorist group the brutal but disjointed Abu Sayyaf and the "innocuos" funding from Wahabi followers in Saudia Arabia.
The capabilities are operational with the ADF. The ad hoc cruise missile of the latest Block Harpoon to be supplanted by the controverial longer range weapons under evaluation- these will equip naval frigates ( probably not the sub's to avoid upsetting the neighbours ) and air forces.
Possibly scenarios in our region are frightfully easy to create- total anarchy in PNG, coup or revolution in Indonesia, natural disasters in the South Pacific, tension in the South China Sea etc.
New Zealand used to have the ability to integrate useful assets into a coalition to combat threats. Every budget more capability is lost and little enhanced or replaced. They are bludging!
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 28th Jan 2005 at 02:45.
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I thing your’e wasting your time trying to reason with the likes of Gnadenburg, he is just using his posts to slag off kiwis and New Zealand, not just on this thread but others too. I’m sure he has never even set foot in NZ yet feels he can speak with authority about the people.
Most here agree the socialist NZ government is not pulling its weight on defence matters, and I for one would like nothing more that to see the back of them.
The NZDF needs assets to contribute to a combined effort, not just manpower, which means Aircraft and Ships. Notwithstanding the usefulness of the SAS, the Army successfully lobbied and appealed to labours peacenik ideals and shafted the other services. The Govt and some kiwis have a blinkered and rose coloured view of the world and their defence policy is a result.
All that is needed is an increase in defence spending to acceptable percentage of GDP, that is our obligation to regional security, end of story.
Don’t hold your breath.
I thing your’e wasting your time trying to reason with the likes of Gnadenburg, he is just using his posts to slag off kiwis and New Zealand, not just on this thread but others too. I’m sure he has never even set foot in NZ yet feels he can speak with authority about the people.
Most here agree the socialist NZ government is not pulling its weight on defence matters, and I for one would like nothing more that to see the back of them.
The NZDF needs assets to contribute to a combined effort, not just manpower, which means Aircraft and Ships. Notwithstanding the usefulness of the SAS, the Army successfully lobbied and appealed to labours peacenik ideals and shafted the other services. The Govt and some kiwis have a blinkered and rose coloured view of the world and their defence policy is a result.
All that is needed is an increase in defence spending to acceptable percentage of GDP, that is our obligation to regional security, end of story.
Don’t hold your breath.
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gn4p7:
Sounds like you agreed with what Gnadenburg said, you just don't like someone else saying it
True however there economy is only 3 times the size, and their population is split over - over 17,000 islands. Their Herc fleets have been run down due to the arms embargo. Although I did read someone earlier saying what great servicibility their hercs had, they didn't look too crash hot when I saw them earlier this month.
One was flying with a collapsed Left Main Oleo, and they had quiet a few aircraft Canab'd. I'd hate to see the CFU list
I'm not sure they have heard of pallets either
Sounds like you agreed with what Gnadenburg said, you just don't like someone else saying it
ZK-NSJ last time i looked, indonesia had around 250 million more people than new zealand
One was flying with a collapsed Left Main Oleo, and they had quiet a few aircraft Canab'd. I'd hate to see the CFU list
I'm not sure they have heard of pallets either
