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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 06:01
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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No, mate, its all about that other australian 'national sport' whinging.

I read the paper, I thought, hey wonder if everyone else has noticed this.

I got off my arse. You didn't.

Did I do something of substance? did you read the other two thirds of my post? You want maybe PDF copies of the letters i sent and the replies I got.

Show me yours!

I can be happy that I followed it through. Before it was law.

But smug; no. Pissed off that the pilot community didn't get the picture, yes. Shaking my head when I read all the indignant comments.

You were either blissfully unaware, or stone cold lazy.

Pay your $200, and dont whinge.

And maybe reread my post -- your reading comprehension skills could do with a little work.

Last edited by ITCZ; 3rd Dec 2004 at 06:12.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 06:10
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Since we're all still coughing up $200 it sounds like you did Sweet Flight Attendant except warm up your gloat-gland and wait for your moment of triumph.

Lucky I have the ca$h to pay but why don't you spare a thought for the poor hungry bloody GA drivers who have to sell themselves down at The Wall just to pay this added embuggerance you could have helped stop?

That's you on the left:
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 06:16
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Thank you for your insightful comments.

You admit you did fark all, and you sling mud at me.

Make sure you have that Kleenex standing by for when you finish your wank.

Cheers.

Fishing the one glister of gold from the dross that issued from Cornholes dribble.. what can we do now?

Write a letter to:

- Hon John Anderson, Minister for Transport.

- Hon Martin Ferguson, Shadow Minister for Transport.

- Your local Federal MP.

- The AFAP

They won\'t know unless you tell them you think its a bad idea.

Cost of three stamps, much < $200.

Would have been a lot more effective in February, shutting the gate before the horse bolts.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 06:33
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Well you had the chance and you threw it away. I guess some people would rather gloat and say I-told-you-so than actually do anything. Something about part of the problem vs the solution.

I would hasten to suggest you all take up ITCZ's (very belated) notion of writing to Our Beloved Leader and his arse-kissing friends and registering your disgust.

Either that or warm up your gums and grab your spot at The Wall.

Would've been nice to have had a proper warning about this before it happened but there you go....
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 07:15
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I don't know that I will be able to convince Cornhole about this but... maybe some other readers might pick up on what needs to be done...

Would've been nice to have had a proper warning about this before it happened but there you go....
These government proposals don't just pop up.

This particular shafting has been in the pipeline for over a year, and has been in the public domain for over a year.

The Jan/Feb edition of Australian Aviation ran it.

The friday aviation supplement (the one with all the job ads) of The Australian ran the story.

The DOTARS website had full details on the proposal from January.

The AFAP were aware of it and had a formal position on the proposal, as least as far back as February this year.

How much publicity did you exactly need?

The lesson here is if we want to wear the label 'professional,' we have to take a look at what that means in other professions.

Simply turning up to work and taking the money doesn't qualify.

Among other things, it means reading industry news and journals.

If we don't do that, then we really have no excuse for being hit by these proposals.

Pilots in general like their jobs because the results of there work are immediately rewarding. Pilots also tend to rely heavily on information gained through visual inputs, followed by auditory inputs. Written communication comes a very unwelcome last. Nothing puts a pilot to sleep faster than a study session with a company operations manual or technical manual....bor-ing.

But the people that make the rules that we have to work under, come from a different world. If it is not written, it never happened. Memos, guidelines, policy and procedure manuals, white papers, discussion papers, surveys, ballots.

Only a fool would think these days that their little world will not be affected by change. Only a fool would thing that all of the changes that might be proposed would be ones that he or she welcomes.

The rule makers must follow policy and procedure. They will give advance notice of rule changes.

Industry journals and forums will pickup these proposals and pass them on to us.

If we 'professionals' do no more than sign off at the end of the day and head for the bar, never paying attention to the news items in industry columns and journals, then we miss the first chance to stomp on the bright idea of some Canberra bureaucrat before it gets legs.

Once it gets to be voted on in parliament, the little bright idea that could be squashed like a mossie, is now a big cast iron proposal that has already been lobbied and considered, and we, rather than it, are the ones that get squashed.

Don't have a go at me for trying to keep myself informed, trying to let a few other colleagues know (via a post that had over 3,000 views), and getting off my butt and hassling the pollies.

If it had SFA effect, then it wasn't due to any lack of effort on my behalf; where were your letters? If I show you up for being a mug, instead of painting me as a smug b@astard, maybe you should stop and think... you have been a mug.

The lesson to be learned here is... if we are all happy to call ourselves professionals, then we have to not only know our day to day jobs as they are, b ut, like a doctor or accountant, actively keep ourselves informed of new developments. Then, if we don't like them, or have significant objections as to how they should be implemented, we then do as the Institute of Professional Engineers, the Australian Medical Associate, or the Institute of Charterd Accountants would do... bring effective political lobbying pressure to bear, to ensure that their professional member's position is heard.

Unfortunately all that seems to happen in the world of 'professional' pilots, as seen on this forum, is tidbits of discussion about how to get a better job, which other mug has just done a wheels up, how much better pilots at airline x are compared to my company.... etc.

Keeping abreast of developments in one's industry is a must do item for other professions, as is presenting the views of the profession coherently and concisely to the government and the public.

Thats what we don't do, and the fault is ours.

If you haven't scanned AA and the Aussie for news items, if you haven't raised your concerns with the appropriate agency about their plans before they turn them into law or policy, if you don't engage in basic politics, such as writing or meeting your local MP, or raising your concerns within your professional organisation..... well then you just have to cop it sweet.

The frustrating thing is that none of these things are difficult to do, and you don't put your job or your liberty at risk when you do them. If you don't get off your arse and do them, then what is all the fuss about wanting to live in a democracy about?
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 07:15
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Cornholeeo

Sorry I don't really understand where you are coming from.

We did know about this a considerable time ago and as ITCZ says we all should have done something back then, it MAY have made a difference.

As for writing letters now to our beloved MP's that is the only option available to us isn't it??

ITCZ does make a good point. Lots of people get on here and whinge and moan about all and sundry, how many of them, us, actually do anything?

I will put my hand up and say I didn't so its a bit late for me to sit back and start whinging about it now. I can how ever take his advice and write a letter today, which I think I might do.

Having me checked out by ASIO is supposed to make every one else in Aus safer not just the travelling public so how about every body else in Aus coughs up for a part payment?
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 07:19
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yet another smack in the face for aviation!


lets see, i fly a warrior into a high rise building! i might be lucky to actually get the engine past the first line of office cubicles, and the wings might make it throught the windows on 1 level, i might kill say, 2, maybee 3 people and myself,

or take my 2.5 tonne capacity van, pack it with you know what, and park it in the loading docks of a high rise building!


gee, good to see my $200 will go to making a real effort in preventing terrorism!

just another aviation tax. to the tune of $200.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 08:09
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Ultralight said:
yet another smack in the face for aviation!
And I agree with you!

But what is your next step? Have a beer, or write a letter?

Having the beer will calm you down, but writing the letter may actually change something.

But what to write?

You are not going to convince the Minister that the checks are unnecessary... he has had too many people tell him that they are necessary. They will have arrived with a whole raft of security initiatives and agreements that Australia would have difficulty arguing itself out of, if it wanted to.

My two beefs with the legislation are

(1) the security checking has already been done on me, and will continue to be done on me via my ASIC, so why repeat the exercise? and

(2) if it is in the national interest that i be checked, and the whole of the nation benefits from the increased security, then why should I be the one that pays for the security that everyone will enjoy?

So there is a perfectly legitimate question to ask in a letter to the Minister of Transport and all the other pollies involved.

I won't win an argument on whether or not pilots should be security checked. Too many other parties want to see it. But I do have a point if I complain about a piece of legislation that duplicates the procedure already in place for ASIC.

And the basis for 'cost recovery' via the individual pilot is worth arguing as well.

The 'user pays' philosophy that was the darling of the economic rationalists of the 1980's and 1990's has had such a hold that it has become an article of faith for many bureaucrats, and enables a lot of government inefficiencies to be hidden in fees for 'services.'

However, a new philosophy, probably equally shallow, is on the rise in administrative circles and it is known as 'shared inconvenience.'

This is at work in AirServices right now. If you wanted to have some airspace reclassified, maybe to extend some C or D airspace into class E to protect an ILS approach for the Singapore Flying College, f'rinstance, then the user pays principle is not applied.... the new concept of 'shared inconvenience' has the ascendancy, so that the loss of some class E around that aerodrome to the sport and recreational aviation people, is seen as a shared inconvenience for the increased safety of a Lear doing his/her ILS in Class C.

If the Minister and DOTARS could be persuaded to see that this is not a situation that fits a user pays model, but is more appropriately a situation where the new 'shared inconvenience' principle applies, well, could save me $200.

And that's what I will be putting forward in my next letter.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 08:14
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Professional pilots will pay the $200 and claim the tax deduction. No problem.

Bigger companies will pay for the check for their employees. No problem.

Private pilots will once again take the pineapple and be pushed inexorably towards the waiting arms of the RAA. No medical required every few years. No GA engineer charges. CASA leaves them alone mostly. So the pool of amateur or recreational pilots will shrink which means there will be fewer businesses catering to their needs. The industry will lose critical mass and be split in to RAA pilots and those training for Air transport jobs. And AOPA will be...still fighting each other and shadow boxing DOTARS/CASA/AsA!
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 08:19
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ITCZ

The latest Air Safety Digest does say (P 58) that ATPL holders with an ASIC can apply for the photo licence by sending two photo's, a copy of the ASIC and a new form which can be downloaded from the CASA website.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 08:29
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lets just get every member of the travelling public a security clearance at cost to them of $200 each, I'm sure they won't mind as it is in the interests of their own safety. See how that flies when the MP hoist it up the flag pole.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 08:49
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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i just hope there is an exemption for ASIC holders! not likely.

I thought the Ansett levy was now being used for paying security? the $200 is Unjustifiable!

writing a letter will do no good, how about showing a unified front and refuse to pay! worked for city fail (rail) commuters here in syd!

Dont worry CASA are already having swipes at restricting the RAA, but if the RAA continues growing at its curent rate, CASA will become obsolete, and only the Airline ops devision of CASA will be able to justify its existance!
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 09:18
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Without wishing to divert you all from the amusing spectacle you’re creating, I note that this is not law yet.

I repeat: this is not law yet.

The bill passed the Senate, which happens to be the chamber in which it was introduced. The bill hasn’t passed the House of Representatives yet. It’s been referred to the Main Committee.

You still have a chance to do what ICTZ has been urging you to do for a long time.

However, this government went to the election with this legislation on the table, and a majority of you voted for it, so I suppose it’s what you want. Please continue …
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 10:21
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im pretty certain most people make their election decisions based on more then one item on the agenda, even if they do not agree with all the items.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 11:33
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im pretty certain most people make their election decisions based on more then one item on the agenda
Yep... the other one, for me, was higher education... HECS and all that.

So... what if we all just flatly REFUSE to pay? In the meantime... make a noise, write letters, whatever. But (for once) we need something resembling a united front on this...

Adam
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 15:51
  #36 (permalink)  

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Grrr Well they certainly have their priorities straight............

Whilst the pilots are under scrutiny, anyone can go to just about any regional airport and board a regional airliner 'armed to the teeth' , without so much as a sideways glance.

Go figure.
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Old 3rd Dec 2004, 22:30
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So... what if we all just flatly REFUSE to pay? In the meantime... make a noise, write letters, whatever. But (for once) we need something resembling a united front on this...
what are you suggesting? is everyone willing to fight this and hopefully prevent it becoming law? we need everyone support, from bugsmashers to jet jocks!

even if the indusrty can show it can form a united front, that alone will be a big step forward!
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Old 4th Dec 2004, 02:58
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate...s/ds011204.pdf Go to page 19.

Three members spoke and thats all she wrote. It is worth noting that both the coalition AND the ALP suport the bill. All on the advice of the public service

Creampuff, I am unfamiliar with the goings of a bill proposed in the Senate. With ref to a bill passing the house it goes to the senate and if then passed there it passes back to the house to be refered to the the GG for royal accent then sent back to the house to be read into law. For a bill that is presented in the senate if passed does it then go back to the house and get passed on the numbers and sent off to the GG? If so then this little number is as good as read into law ( or whatever it is in legalise )

Regards

Mark
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Old 4th Dec 2004, 04:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Well, guys, what are we going to do about this?

We can read it and weep, or we can get off our self-interested arses and actually refuse to accept this bullsh1t!

No-one can logically explain how this little erosion of our liberties is going to have any impact on real terrorists, and we can simply rant and rave as long as we like on prune, but we'll still get screwed in the long run.

The 150th anniversary of the Eureka uprising occurred this week, have we lost the spirit that made this country great, or have we still got the guts to make a point in everyone's best interests?

Make no mistake, no-one benefits from us allowing this sort of utter stupidity to exist, not us, not the rest of our countrymen, nor, ultimately, the deluded politicians who let it go.

The question is, "What should we do?" Personally, I think that the best idea is to burn our licences, as the Eureka miners burnt theirs, and refuse to pay for this utterly offensive attack on our integrity.

If anyone's got a better idea, let's hear it, but we'd better make it soon and spread the word as soon as possible if we're to have any chance of getting all pilots on side before we lose the opportunity to do something that we've been desperately needing to do for quite some time, unite.

Yes, that means no more back stabbing, whinging, and slurring all other airmen who aren't up to your standard. Isn't it better to consider any airman up to our standard?

There's plenty of empty airspace out there, and some would say in there too, but I don't want to spoil the message.

We need all airmen to unite, the airlines, GA, and the military would be great to have along as well.

Here's our opportunity to do more than save ourselves a couple of hundred bucks every 2 years, this is an opportunity to save our society from spiraling into insanity.

Waddya reckon blokes, are we willing to make the sacrifice?

And remember, Life's a bitch, then you fly! Not life's a bitch.

Nowadays, it's getting hard to enjoy flying, but we can change all that.
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Old 4th Dec 2004, 05:15
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Who exactly are you going to unite?

I SAY AGAIN... Professional pilots will have the check paid for by their company. It will just mean yet another form to sign. Some commercial pilots will have to pay for it themselves, then they will claim a tax deduction, just like their medical, charts, documents, sunglasses etc. PRIVATE PILOTS are the ones who have a problem here, so what is AOPA doing to help?




PS. Of course it will not make flying safer!
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