Erebus 25 years on
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Cazalet33 -
Perfect summation. The will to engage in ceaseless debate is mystifying . ..
. . unless it is human nature to fasten the teeth lock them there fixedly no matter what. Many are the cases of accidents plumbed at great depth about which in the end a whiff of natural justice prevails. For when the accused are unable to say one word in their own defence a point is reached when it as well to emulate the wisdom of Solomon and draw a veil upon irreconcilable dispute.
They all believed the waypoint was at McMurdo Station, but thought that a route to that point would take them down the Sound with Erebus to the left.
That's the nub of the thing, right there.
It is what was in the heads of the crew which led to disaster.
That mental model had been set up by the airline and to a lesser extent by the CAD. That is why the prime responsibility rests with the airline management and its overseer.
The fact that the crew members were hopelessly inexperienced in the task at hand and their training was woefully inadequate compounds the culpability.
That's the nub of the thing, right there.
It is what was in the heads of the crew which led to disaster.
That mental model had been set up by the airline and to a lesser extent by the CAD. That is why the prime responsibility rests with the airline management and its overseer.
The fact that the crew members were hopelessly inexperienced in the task at hand and their training was woefully inadequate compounds the culpability.
. . unless it is human nature to fasten the teeth lock them there fixedly no matter what. Many are the cases of accidents plumbed at great depth about which in the end a whiff of natural justice prevails. For when the accused are unable to say one word in their own defence a point is reached when it as well to emulate the wisdom of Solomon and draw a veil upon irreconcilable dispute.
unless it is human nature to fasten the teeth lock them there fixedly no matter what
By exhibiting good airmanship in spite of crap airline management
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most were busting SOP. What saved them was the good weather they encountered.
You done bust the code and you done so publically. Bastard!
Can I say so without being given "time away"?
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No they weren't, because most were busting SOP. What saved them was the good weather they encountered.
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Captain Roger Dalziell's flight, which because of unfavourable weather took the alternative sightseeing route over the South Magnetic Pole.
Re the radar,
The captain of a USAF C141 Starlifter following 49 minutes behind the Air New Zealand flight said no terrain was visible and he made a long gradual descent over the water, navigating entirely by the inertial navigation system and maintaining 16,000ft until being picked up by McMurdo radar about 38 miles out.He immediately entered cloud on starting his final descent, passing between layers with good visibility but no sight of the ground until the aircraft broke out of cloud at about 5,000ft and landed normally at McMurdo
Last edited by prospector; 21st Jun 2016 at 21:35.
So it was possible, because of weather, to use judgement to alter the plan.
Last edited by framer; 22nd Jun 2016 at 03:36.
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So it was possible, because of weather, to use judgement to alter the plan.
That's why we earn more pay in the left seat (on plankwing flights) than in the righthand seat.
In this case, the mindset (on all seats) was set by the airline, not by some maverick.
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3 holer check ur PMs
while I'm here I think mahon did get it right he was just the victim of a determined government and a stacked appeals court. if the case against collins had any substance he would have been pursued in a civil court. i don't think the litigants would have had much success.
hat,coat...........door
while I'm here I think mahon did get it right he was just the victim of a determined government and a stacked appeals court. if the case against collins had any substance he would have been pursued in a civil court. i don't think the litigants would have had much success.
hat,coat...........door
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With the weather report they received from the met people at McMurdo, and being advised that the area was no good for sightseeing
then obviously the wrong judgement was used.
Exactly, and if a wrong decision is made, such as in this case, why is it that the nav section who laid out the plan, all above MSA using the most up to date nav system, but nothing planned below MSA, that was left to the judgement of the crew according to the .weather conditions met at the destination, got so much flak from Mahon? .
It is always possible to use judgement to alter the plan.
That's why we earn more pay in the left seat (on plankwing flights) than in the righthand seat.
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obviously the wrong judgement was used.
why is it that the nav section who laid out the plan, all above MSA using the most up to date nav system, but nothing planned below MSA, that was left to the judgement of the crew according to the .weather conditions met at the destination, got so much flak from Mahon?
I'll pose a question if I may. Just suppose an aircraft inbound was given the weather as 8/8ths 17,000, 20k vis, surface poor, horizon poor. Meets the airline criteria for a VMC let down in the prescribed area, so what problems, if any, may be encountered during,
1. the letdown
2. sight seeing at 6,000
1. the letdown
2. sight seeing at 6,000
Last edited by megan; 22nd Jun 2016 at 01:34. Reason: Forgot to add detail-VMC, presribed area
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If it was being radar monitored for terrain and traffic clearance, as was one of the requirements for descent below MSA, and if it had not been reported by met observers that Ross Island was completely obscured by cloud, and the descent was in the area prescribed by the company to keep it clear of Mt Erebus, I would have thought no problem.
Fantome,
Not mystifying, just trying to establish that Mahon was not correct in his use of selected pieces of evidence to suit his opinion and disregarding anything that went against that opinion.
Fantome,
Perfect summation. The will to engage in ceaseless debate is mystifying
Last edited by prospector; 22nd Jun 2016 at 02:43.
Surely to say as Mahon did that they crew made 'no' errors is to cheapen the profession. That statement is basically saying that as professional pilots we will just fly the thing to the crash site should the setup be bad enough! The clues were all there for this crew, yes their training was crap, the change of routing was not expected and the whiteout was something they had no experience. But the inability to contact McMurdo, the lack of TACAN, the marginal conditions that meant they couldn't sight the high terrain and the unfavourable met reports from other aircraft should have all given pause for though before descending so low. The organisation put them in a bad spot, their mistake was not using the clues on the day to trap some of those errors. We're the crew wholly responsible..... NO, do they hold any responsibility...... YES.
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 22nd Jun 2016 at 02:55. Reason: Errors
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Please stop trotting out this nonsense about the captain being ignorant of sector whiteout. The CVR shows that he knew of the problem. I would venture to suggest that he knew about from the mid-1950s, flying sorties out of Wigram in a Harvard. One of the first things his instructor would have warned him about when flying close to Mount Hutt in a low overcast was the visual issue.
So when he made his unannounced descent below MSA through that hole in the cloud, claiming to be VMC, he knew full well that he was not.Why did he do that? Because he was actually relying on the AINS, and he also knew full well the AINS was not to be used for a descent of that nature. This was why he was pleased to be offered a radar-assisted descent (which never came,but he went ahead regardless.)
When he levelled out at 2000 feet, there was no “false horizon”. That was something dreamt up by Vette, unsupported by any of the experts. There was no horizon, so he should have been out straight away.Instead, down to 1500 – ”we’ll probably see further anyway”. He then went on for two full minutes inside a ping-pong ball, before deciding to bale out. The F/O said it was clear to the right if he wanted to do a 180. Answer ”No negative”, and he pulls out the heading select knob and initiates a LEFT turn. Left, towards where he’ssupposed to think the high ground to be. Why did he do that?
No-one will ever know, but my theory is that the pennies stared to drop. Told at the briefing that the waypoint was at McMurdo Station.The night before, he discovered that the waypoint was 20 miles west, but he didn’t check it. Also discovered that a track to McMurdo Station went over Erebus. What if the waypoint is at McMurdo Station, like I was told at the breifing? That would explain the communication problems. It would also mean that Mt Bird is to my right, so the only way out is left.
So when he made his unannounced descent below MSA through that hole in the cloud, claiming to be VMC, he knew full well that he was not.Why did he do that? Because he was actually relying on the AINS, and he also knew full well the AINS was not to be used for a descent of that nature. This was why he was pleased to be offered a radar-assisted descent (which never came,but he went ahead regardless.)
When he levelled out at 2000 feet, there was no “false horizon”. That was something dreamt up by Vette, unsupported by any of the experts. There was no horizon, so he should have been out straight away.Instead, down to 1500 – ”we’ll probably see further anyway”. He then went on for two full minutes inside a ping-pong ball, before deciding to bale out. The F/O said it was clear to the right if he wanted to do a 180. Answer ”No negative”, and he pulls out the heading select knob and initiates a LEFT turn. Left, towards where he’ssupposed to think the high ground to be. Why did he do that?
No-one will ever know, but my theory is that the pennies stared to drop. Told at the briefing that the waypoint was at McMurdo Station.The night before, he discovered that the waypoint was 20 miles west, but he didn’t check it. Also discovered that a track to McMurdo Station went over Erebus. What if the waypoint is at McMurdo Station, like I was told at the breifing? That would explain the communication problems. It would also mean that Mt Bird is to my right, so the only way out is left.
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So when he made his unannounced descent below MSA through that hole in the cloud, claiming to be VMC, he knew full well that he was not.Why did he do that? Because he was actually relying on the AINS, and he also knew full well the AINS was not to be used for a descent of that nature.
When he levelled out at 2000 feet, there was no “false horizon”. That was something dreamt up by Vette, unsupported by any of the experts. There was no horizon, so he should have been out straight away.Instead, down to 1500 – ”we’ll probably see further anyway”. He then went on for two full minutes inside a ping-pong ball, before deciding to bale out.
If it was being radar monitored for terrain and traffic clearance, as was one of the requirements for descent below MSA
And radar monitoring was not required for the introduced VMC descent. And it wouldn't have been available if it was because of the above. Another great, great element in the airlines planning.
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Please stop the nonsense about being radar monitored. The controllers had no idea of the descent procedure the airline had dreamt up, nor in what location it was to be carried out. And to top it off, had they known, the were incapable of doing so.
Last edited by PapaHotel6; 22nd Jun 2016 at 04:34.