Ummm - Guys and girls - I could use a little advice here. Please?

[Eastwest Loco]

Chique - Intersting way of looking at it and in my slightly off centre mind quite valid I think Red Dwarf is the best show ever seen on telly - that should give you an idea where my mind is at.

Amos - I can honestly say I have no idea where you are going mate. Remember I am just a lowly groundhog.

Regards

EWL

[HSWL]

On a similar subject. I have had the unfortunate experience in Port Vila a long time ago of being told by the ticket collector that a few drunks were about to board my aircraft. I told her to stop them coming aboard. Too late she said they are on their way.

Big decision as the flight attendants were shy locals and wouldn't say boo to a goose. I took a deep breath, clambered from the safety of the LH seat and confronted these clowns at the bottom of the stairs hoping to buy enough time to satisy myself whether they were just merry and harmless or potentially dangerous once airborne.

The leader had a sense of humour although he towered over me and promised to be good boys. I crossed my fingers and let them on. They were no problem for the rest of the trip. I was just lucky.
Point I am laboriously trying to make is that someone of authority should stop drunks at the check-in counter - not left it to the crew.
It seems universal that drunks are let through the check-in point because the staff are scared of a fuss. I presume this is a common occurrence?

[Buster Hyman]

Not necessarily HSWL. I have been called to an aircraft for processing a "drunk" through the system. As I was training someone at the time, we could catagorically state that they were quite sober at check in. Medication/drugs & one small drink can do an awful lot in a short time.

If some government has the guts to do it, you could breathalise the punters as they went through security or gate (whichever is between the bar and the aircraft) but that would impinge on certain liberties again.

Bottom line is, when you see them getting on drunk or behaving weirdly, you then know who to watch or monitor the consumption. It's the ones that lose it some time after V1 that I would consider the greater threat.

[Eastwest Loco]

Funny you should bring that up HSWL - I have been guilty on a fair few occasions over a number of years of offloading tired and emotional intended passengers.

My judgement must be slipping.

EWL

[Northern Chique]

Absolutely nothing at all wrong with Red Dwarf!!! Loved that show and along with Faulty Towers usually made for my total TV veiwing there for a while... something about study taking priority

As for drunk pax... I used to get up high (for a C207 about 5000 amsl ) turn the heater up a bit, and some 5-10 mins after take off, theyd all be snoring their heads off. Shame the altitude didnt do anything for the smell though......

[wirgin blew]

HSWL - As far as I am aware the only people with RSA certificates are the CC. Therefore it is up to them to refuse entry and or refuse service. in the licensed premise, being the aircraft. Check-in staff and boarding gate staff arent bouncers or required to have RSA cert, so I think your being a bit harsh on them. Im sure the info gets passed on but at the end of the day the CSM is in charge of the SLF.

EWL - There are many people out there living with mental illness, some take there medication and get on with life and others just try and manage. Whose to say this lady didnt leave her pills at home?

[Desert Flower]

OMG!! EWL, if I didn't know better I would say you had dealt with an acquaintance of mine. Bi-polar 1 (hi-tech jargon for nutty as a fruit cake), autistic, & has OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). A walking disaster! During one of her major manic episodes she apparently got on a one way business class flight from Perth to Canberra. Ended up there with no money, no food & nowhere to go. Attempted suicide & ended up in hospital. So obviously you are not the first person to sell a ticket to someone like this.

DF.

P.S. Please tell me you're NOT in Perth!!

[Eastwest Loco]

Doesn't help not being the first Desert Flower.

I would have guessed semi controlled bi-polar, but am a mere Travel Agent so in no way do I have a right to an opinion in this specialised area.

I am in Devonport in Tasmania, so do not worry about friends in WA.

Update is that she is comfortable and the family will be sending a member to escort her home.

Even though mental disorders and pre existing illnesses are not covered by insurance, Mondial Assistance has not dropped the ball and is co-ordinating her care and removal on behalf of her family.

Thank heavens for small mercies!!!

Best all

EWL

[amos2]

Well, you're not going to like this EWL, and I'm not intending to cast aspersions for the sake of it, but...I think in view of your prior knowledge of this ladies foibles that you should have contacted a member of her family for confirmation to issue the tickets. I also think you should have ascertained a contact number and made a phone call to a family member of the bloke who threw himself off the ferry!

I feel for you with the agonising that you're going through but you did ask the question and that's my opinion, even tho only one other thinks that obviously!

My earlier comments, by the way, were in reference to April fools day. I really thought you were having us on at first.

Anyway, all you can do now is put it behind you. You've learnt from it, you don't need us to tell you that. Nothing wrong with making a bad judgement call as long as we tuck it away in the memory box for the future. Cheers!

[Woomera]

Amos. Whilst there may appear to be a moral obligation on EWL to contact a relative under the circumstances, I wonder where EWL would stand under privacy legislation (and possibly the conditions of his airline agency agreements) if he were to divulge a passenger's travel details to other than the passenger?

I can see a whole mine field here, if EWL were to assume he is a fit and proper person to judge a potential passenger's sanity.

I think the Courts would rip him to shreds - not to mention where he may stand with the airlines if, as an agent, he were to breach their confidentiality.

Just my two cents...........

Woomera

Addendum:
This morning I had cause to call a bus company to confirm a passenger who missed a domestic flight connection, was able to board an alternate scheduled bus service. Despite quoting the passenger's full details, the booking reference number and confirming his bus ticket was charged to my personal business credit card, the bus company advised that privacy legislation prohitited them giving any information.

I was advised my only recourse would be to contact the Police who could contain travel confirmation and could advise me at their discretion.

In the matter posted by EWL, I suspect he fullfilled his legal obligation.

[Eastwest Loco]

Yep Woomera - and if the Police call an Agent or employee of the bus company, then they are required to NOT give out the information without a court order.

As we well know the courts can be fairly dodgy in some instances, and a cause for legal challenge that could could come back and bite the company employing the person that handed over information in what they considered to be good faith _ WITH a court order. Even in these fora, I am careful not to mention names or specifics that would allow anyone to track things back.

Amos - understandable comments, and I have been through all the "what ifs" a thousand times, in both cases actually.

More distressing with the current case actually, but there you go. If I called the family, or tried to access the family I would be opening myself up to legal litigation (and ambulance chasers would milk it for all the could get with just one small mention) that doubles my already large liability insurance. There is a nsaty case from WA where an Agent booked a family into a Bali resort. The 13 year old daughter was tragically raped by a resort employee. No hope of recourse under the Indonesian system, which considers it to be overseas tourists fault because they were "there". Legal bill far exceeded insurance as the family sued the Agent and succeeded- business and assets gone.

This actually didn't come into my thinking directly at the time of booking, but a deep sense of trepidation did. I had and still have no right to deny a service to a client that the community health services deem as fit to live alone without supervision. I have seen a frail little old couple come into our office, and book a quite strenuous trek through Africa on open trucks and sleeping in tents. Rather than come back in bodybags, they had an absolute ball and came back full of spring and brown as a Masai warrior and his lady. Who the hell knew? I guess I was just seeking validation of the fact that I was cornered. Sure I had my feelings about what was happening in the mind of the lady, but hell - I have no training in these matters. She may have breezed through.

I will now admit quite freely I would rather this passenger had gone to Fright Centre or Scurvy World, but fail to see that she would not have hit this spining propellor - hindsight is 20-20.

As for the dude that threw himself off the Spirit, no self recrimination.

I fielded that one as he was very threatening to the ladies who keep my business going, and who I am pleased to also call friends. I was within seconds of calling for Police intervention, but doubted I would have had a satisfactory result in pulling them away from their speed cameras and mobile phone using driver patrols.

He simply asked airfares on DJ ex LST, stank the office up badly, gibbered a lot and went with a little coaxing. Never saw him again. A mate of mine on the rescue boat was the last to see him.

Never jump off a ship travelling at 38 knots in a greatcoat - buoyancy becomes an issue.

Thanks for all the excellent input, criticism and support you good crew have offered. that is exactly what I wanted. The yes - no - maybe. We are actively supporting the emergency people, and where possible the family as that is what we do, but I did need to try to get a handle on what others would have done.

As is safe to do so, I will keep you all informed.

Best regards

EWL

[Buster Hyman]

Well, at the end of the day EWL, it's what you get for setting up shop off of the mainland!

[Eastwest Loco]

Hi Buster

Good news is she is being brought back to the North Island.

It does serve us right for living on a rock in the Southern Ocean though.

Best regards

EWL

[bush pelican]

Am I my brother's keeper?

There have been many good comments on this topic. I had no idea of EWL’s reputation and had no intention of diminishing that reputation or good name. Just a robust response to his request! I did say I didn’t think EWL acted responsibly for ‘many reasons’.
Here are some:

1. EWL made numerous judgements in this case and gave lots of information and advice that completely negates his (or others) claims re a defence on the basis of privacy laws OR that he shouldn’t or couldn’t make a value judgement or personal assessment. For example…

“DPO airport and SQ are warned by me that the lady is non dangerous, but if spare seats are available, it would be wise to make sure one is next to her for the comfort of other passengers.”

“I had no reason to believe she would produce more than a temporary annoyance to fellow pax”

“If I ascertained she was a danger to an aeroplane or other passenger I would have done what I did with a dead set drug crazed loony….”

2. EWL had every reason to believe that this was a line ball case but he took it on himself to issue the ticket.

“The pax advised me she was persona non gratia in every other travel agency..”

“I duly arranged the airfares…issued travel insurance with the normal advice etc (mental illness is not coverable) that actions resulting from mental illness are not covered “

“With much trepidation, I concluded the transaction.”

B.H. and others made a point that EWL was not a mental health worker. This is irrelevant. No one needed to be a mental health worker to understand there was a problem here. B.H. also said that I assumed EWL had details of her NOK. This was not an assumption. EWL states he filled out a travel and medical insurance form. This requires details of NOK. So now all that was required was a simple phone call as other contributors have pointed out. So easy.

I think, and I would be happy to have as a defence in court, the concept that safety and security over-ride any notion of privacy, this without even considering my responsibility to the lady and her family or those that would be so predictably picking up the pieces.

EWL states, “ on some visits she is totally lucid and intelligent, at other times she knows what she wants but while the information is being retrieved talks of her daughter being turned into an elf by some unintelligible villain, and how George Bush is out to get her and similar things.”

I had a close pilot friend who was happily married and successful. One day he confided in me that he had information that the Japanese were going to invade Australia and take us all for slaves etc. He said the secret code for when this would happen was ‘it’s not a Toyota’. I had never seen him like this before. I actually thought it was a joke of some sort. It went on for a while and I became concerned but he continued to function and his immediate family said he would be OK and would get over it. One night the police rang me and told me he had shot his two young daughters, his pregnant wife and the dog and then himself. He came to the conclusion that he would rather die than be taken alive. He didn’t seem as nutty as the lady EWL describes.

I think in aviation and life in general it is good to look at the options intelligently and then make a discission on the basis of the consequences. This can be a bit conservative at times but at least if you take the risky route you have an idea of what you might be in for!!

Everone has an increased responsibility to the disadvantaged and vulnerable in the community and this doesn’t just mean not taking advantage of them, it means looking out for their interests when they cross your path even if it costs you a bit.

I think EWL had that old problem of conflict of interest, maybe unintentionally, not that I’m saying he isn’t a good person, but WHY did he sell her that ticket without making the phone call…

“and I have spent the day in contact with Mondial Assistance and her daughter, who is a lovely lady who lives in NSW, until last night blissfully unaware Mum was in China”

I think the phone call would have been easier, and cheaper!!!!

BP

[Eastwest Loco]

Yes Bush Pelican

You are correct. I am in the wrong, and then I am in the right. Go figure. In hindsight, maybe I would have been better off saying no, but it is totally against my nature. Stupid me.

The yield on this booking this booking as I think I have said was a total of $180.00 which I could well have survived without. Dollars never came into the equation,and as we are mostly mainland corporate, the local market we have is generally repeat regulars . Referrals and walk in. We do not even advertise locally.

When you count the number of seperate quotes we have done for the lady over several years, it does not even cover 10% of the time spent. Just something that one does in the business mix.

That aint the point though. I should have had an exit route that was legal, protected the rights of the lady and did not leave me liable to litigation. I didn't and still do not have one, and am indeed still technically liable to litigation by the family over the cost of 3 weeks in a Chinese Psych facility and the accompanying doctor on the way home.

FYI - medical insurance forms do not require disclosure of next of kin. I did not speak to the daughter until after it went pear shaped, and in fact did not even realise there was a family at all. The clauses regarding pre-existing illness and mental problem claim exclusion were both explained, and logged in the client file.

Flying blind mate. Guess I found the glass mountain though.

Your opinion of the events, my actions and "shoulda beens" are totally valid and what I was seeking by posting this in here. I needed badly to try to get my head around what is reasonable thinking in such a circumstance, and this has helped immensely.

Actually, if I had a phone number, I think I would have called.

Thanks Bushie

Best regards

EWL

[Jenna Talia]

You are nature's gentleman EWL. I wish more were like you on this and other forums.

[Eastwest Loco]

Hey Jenna - Thanks but praised not earned. I screwed the puppy, and simply do not want to do it again. My passengers are my business, and facilitating them is what I do. This time I am just trying to figure out how not to attract the RSPCA in the future. Nobody deserves what this lady and her family have copped.

I would like to see a straight out vote on send or refuse. That would be interesting, but a poll on an issue like this is totally inappropriate. I would like people to poll themselves (not the best choice of words) and put themselves in the "final decision" position as an agent. I think it will be around 50-50 despite the obvious support for what I did. Maybe a little against selling the ticket.

When you have to think about it and the impact on the passenger and yourself and your staff, it ceases to be easy.

Thanks again. That was a lovely thing to say and I very much appreciate the comment.

Best regards

EWL

[Buster Hyman]

B P EWL has just stated he didn't have the number & I assume you would counter with "Look it up!"...fair enough.

Suppose, like you, he did raise the issue with the NOK and got a similar response, did that discharge his duty of care? Did speaking to your close friends' family do it for you?

Making the care of these people the responsibility of the general community is a grand & noble gesture and would be wonderfull if it worked, but I can't see it happening myself. The lady obviously had enough sense to be taking care of her own assets so, doesn't that show that even the professionals had confidence in her...granted, they may not have sanctioned an OS trip, but I would think it would be a reasonable assumption for anyone to make.

I'm sure you'll agree then that EWL was but one small part of a chain of people that let her down. Perhaps you feel he initiated the travel, so must bear greatest responsibility? I don't know. But if it was an internet booking, who would then bear that responsibility?

[bush pelican]

Am I my brother's keeper?

Doing something will usually suffice to show you exercised a duty of care. I think in this case (mental illness) there is a known element of unpredictability that really screams out for that bit extra.. In my case I did what I could short of certification which because of the families rights, (I felt it was their prerogative) I didn’t do. I still feel terrible about it. I think in the case of mental illness you don’t worry about privacy etc. too much, the consequences of not communicating your concerns can be too great. Usually the family of these folk are used to it!

You can’t live someone else’s life but you can have a clear conscience. Just my opinion but in this case I would say bugger the so called privacy laws. If EWL for example had managed to ring the daughter and have a quite word he would quite probably have handed the resolution of the problem to the family where it could be more appropriately handled.

The core of this thread is could EWL have done it better and saved himself and others from grief. I think he could. Obviously every case is different. If she had done it all over the phone or internet and he had no knowledge of her circumstances the conclusions would be totally different and we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation! What would be interesting is how would EWL handle this now with the benefit of hindsight! Goodluck EWL!

BP

[Eastwest Loco]

Yep Bushie, I guess I would do it different next time. Not sure just how it would be different, but this is not one of my better efforts.

Heading her off at the pass would have certainly been a better outcome for the family,but what about her?

Does the lady spend the rest of her life being refused service by operations like mine that vend just that? Where does one draw the line in the sand?

I have subsequently discovered that this person has more names than Mata Hari, so had I looked even telsta,com would have been of little or no use.

Buster, you are also correct, I seem to have crashed and burned but at least a portion of the blame should go to Airspace Management. Topical that!

Hopefully we can all walk away from this mess and learn from it.

And Bushie - I am sorry to hear about your mate. That is just so tragic and must have hurt you so badly. We just do not know. If you or I could have seen the repercussions of random events before us, I am sure we would have both acted, even if we got it wrong.

If only.

Best all

EWL