An Australian Dream Shattered
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Sorry guys and gals but I need to refer to something mentioned a little further back in this thread.
I'm curious about the term "Un Australian". It gets used so often. So what does it mean. Are we all angels? Do Australians do no wrong? I would really like to know the answer to this one.
I'm curious about the term "Un Australian". It gets used so often. So what does it mean. Are we all angels? Do Australians do no wrong? I would really like to know the answer to this one.
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A couple of points here.
If people consider S/O's overpaid, then let's do what most airlines do for Long Haul operations and have two Captains and two F/Os on a heavy crew, instead of one Captain, one F/O and two S/O's.
Pacific Barons make exactly the same money per hour as the most junior 744 Captains. Their pay differential is purely overtime. So I fail to see any point in bringing that up.
The '89 (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) brigade in here must take a chill pill. No union is going to make the mistakes made 15 years ago. Qantas is a large public company who cannot afford protected industrial action by any group, taken as part of an EBA. People seem to forget this. The fact that they are ramping up the pressure now should be an indication of how effective, targeted industrial action can be. It is the absolute last thing they want.
There seem to be people here who believe that the events of 1989 are a cast-iron blueprint for any subsequent industrial action, in fact, I seem to detect almost a yearning for another group to suffer the same fate as the 89'ers. It would seem to be almost a vindication for them.
It is as if they need another group to be as comprehensively shafted as they were in order to feel better about their own experience.
No-one is going to lose their jobs by taking protected industrial action.
Those who see Jetstar and Australian waiting in the wings to take over the in the wake of some industrial armageddon fail to realise the importance of the Qantas brand name.
Some of the tripe being written in this thread is beyond belief.... get a grip.
To any FA's reading this, you are not alone.
If people consider S/O's overpaid, then let's do what most airlines do for Long Haul operations and have two Captains and two F/Os on a heavy crew, instead of one Captain, one F/O and two S/O's.
Pacific Barons make exactly the same money per hour as the most junior 744 Captains. Their pay differential is purely overtime. So I fail to see any point in bringing that up.
The '89 (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) brigade in here must take a chill pill. No union is going to make the mistakes made 15 years ago. Qantas is a large public company who cannot afford protected industrial action by any group, taken as part of an EBA. People seem to forget this. The fact that they are ramping up the pressure now should be an indication of how effective, targeted industrial action can be. It is the absolute last thing they want.
There seem to be people here who believe that the events of 1989 are a cast-iron blueprint for any subsequent industrial action, in fact, I seem to detect almost a yearning for another group to suffer the same fate as the 89'ers. It would seem to be almost a vindication for them.
It is as if they need another group to be as comprehensively shafted as they were in order to feel better about their own experience.
No-one is going to lose their jobs by taking protected industrial action.
Those who see Jetstar and Australian waiting in the wings to take over the in the wake of some industrial armageddon fail to realise the importance of the Qantas brand name.
Some of the tripe being written in this thread is beyond belief.... get a grip.
To any FA's reading this, you are not alone.
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UnAustralian.
Ha. It is a classic 'wedge' statement. Howard is notorious for them.
Its a 'if your not with us you are against us' strategy, as employed in Bushspeak.
It really does beg the question: what IS Australian?
Apparently, applauding our CEO's self-awarding of huge performance bonuses, built on the sweat of staff who have in good faith improved the productivity, whilst taking wage freezes, only to be rewarded by the goodwill of management training up strike breakers and wanting to casualise or place offshore their positions. THAT is being Australian John?
Sorry mate - that is America. And it is reaping the social problems it has created as the wealth gap becomes a canyon.
Hotdog - you are the one making this a political argument. As I have said all along, it is not about voting the ALP in, it is about voting the Lib/Nat's out. The majority of Australians did just that. The electoral system we have doesnt reflect that.
It seems to me that many of the dismissive comments about the FA are coming from junior pilots in Qantas who are casting them from a position of enjoying the conditions hard won by their predecessors in just such a situation. Will you be prepared to fight, and will you get support when it is your turn to be Dixoned? About time you realised you have to stick together - Dixon is counting on the type of division your ignorance is displaying on this forum - don't think they dont read it. They do. Best you talk to some of the tech crew who have been around longer than 15 years and see what they think.
Ha. It is a classic 'wedge' statement. Howard is notorious for them.
Its a 'if your not with us you are against us' strategy, as employed in Bushspeak.
It really does beg the question: what IS Australian?
Apparently, applauding our CEO's self-awarding of huge performance bonuses, built on the sweat of staff who have in good faith improved the productivity, whilst taking wage freezes, only to be rewarded by the goodwill of management training up strike breakers and wanting to casualise or place offshore their positions. THAT is being Australian John?
Sorry mate - that is America. And it is reaping the social problems it has created as the wealth gap becomes a canyon.
Hotdog - you are the one making this a political argument. As I have said all along, it is not about voting the ALP in, it is about voting the Lib/Nat's out. The majority of Australians did just that. The electoral system we have doesnt reflect that.
It seems to me that many of the dismissive comments about the FA are coming from junior pilots in Qantas who are casting them from a position of enjoying the conditions hard won by their predecessors in just such a situation. Will you be prepared to fight, and will you get support when it is your turn to be Dixoned? About time you realised you have to stick together - Dixon is counting on the type of division your ignorance is displaying on this forum - don't think they dont read it. They do. Best you talk to some of the tech crew who have been around longer than 15 years and see what they think.
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Geoff Dixon is doing the job which he is employed to do. That is, to run a profitable company and produce a positive return for its shareholders. This means to cut costs in areas that can be run more profitably. I personally don't believe he lays awake at night scheming as to how he can lower the wages of the FAs.
FAs are trying to protect their current employment conditions and keep future employment open and available to Australians.
A lot of airlines in the global market are performing badly, or even facing bankruptcy. This has forced changes to industrial work practices in order for the airline to survive. QF posted a record profit this past year, and I fail to see how a record profit demonstrates that the airline is in trouble and struggling to survive.
Sure, GD wants to ensure QF maintains a long term profitability. The FAs are only the starting point for his plan to reduce labour costs. The next target will be the pilots. They too are replaceable by cheaper offshore labour. Be careful what you wish for.
SG
FAs are trying to protect their current employment conditions and keep future employment open and available to Australians.
A lot of airlines in the global market are performing badly, or even facing bankruptcy. This has forced changes to industrial work practices in order for the airline to survive. QF posted a record profit this past year, and I fail to see how a record profit demonstrates that the airline is in trouble and struggling to survive.
Sure, GD wants to ensure QF maintains a long term profitability. The FAs are only the starting point for his plan to reduce labour costs. The next target will be the pilots. They too are replaceable by cheaper offshore labour. Be careful what you wish for.
SG
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I'm curious about the term "Un Australian". It gets used so often. So what does it mean. Are we all angels? Do Australians do no wrong? I would really like to know the answer to this one.
- doesn't have beetroot on their hamburger,
- doesn't follow AFL, NRL, Rugby, or cricket
- doesn't think Boonie is a legend
- doesn't sit in the front seat of the cab,
- thinks a Koala is actually a bear,
- doesn't like barbies and eats shrimps not prawns,
- thinks a thong is worn around your bum!
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In other words, if you're not a Kingswood-driving, VB swilling, blue-collar, bogun yobbo you're un-Australian. Like most of our passengers thanks to VB and Jest-scar
Sorry but in recent decades it has become very Australian to target your industrial action for the time it will have the greatest effect. For airline staff, this is Christmas or, if they could wait a little longer, Easter. Not the first time it's happened.
Sorry but in recent decades it has become very Australian to target your industrial action for the time it will have the greatest effect. For airline staff, this is Christmas or, if they could wait a little longer, Easter. Not the first time it's happened.
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Cutest of Borg...Comparative
C.O.B,I raised the question of Pacific Baron`s income as a comparative only.Many on PPrune keep going on about how well paid QF Longhaul CC are paid.As has been said numerous times elsewhere the floating of the A$ and the introduction of the bid system lead(lauded by the management of the time as an enormous coup) to CC receiving a reasonable income compared to the pittance it was prior to `88.I was attempting to draw a comparison between QF Pilots wages and other airline pilots in order to gain an intelligent informed response form MMMBOP.I mean no disrespect to Qantas Pilots.I doubt MMMBOP has too many neurons to play with...he is a bit like someone coming to a gun fight with a knife.
Last edited by argusmoon; 24th Oct 2004 at 07:43.
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Cornholio
Workers in the brewing industry were notorious,during the 60s and 70s,for going on strike during Christmas.....without warning.The clause in the current Qantas CC EBA expires on the 18th of December...protected action can be taken after that.This was QFs preferred date for expiration of the clause.This discussion has going on for almost 8 months ,the travelling public are well aware of what is going and are therefore able to make alternative arrangements.The industrial action is not going to be sprung on them.It will however have an impact on forward bookings and hence Rattys incentive bonus
As I have said elsewhere, the reason Howard used the word "Un Australian" is because this battle, and future battles centres on wether Qantas is still "Australia's" Airline.
If Qantas loses the "I still call Australia Home" tagline then its brand is worthless. A large part of Qantas's value in this dangerous age, is associated with Qantas's image as a "Safe" airline. Picture bronzed anzacs carefully maintaining aircraft, Paul Hogan in every cockpit and luverly Australian flight attendants (of both sexes???).
The battle for flight attendants and others is to ensure that Qantas is no longer seen as Australia's airline if it does not give its employees a "fair go" Now a "fair go" is as Australian as you can get. So the first thing Howard has to do is brand FA's as Un Australian.
The obvious thing to do from my humble point of view, is to ask the question why basing xxx FA's in europe and hiring foriegners to work as cabin crew, putting AUstralians out of work, is Australian? However unless this is done immediately and loudly (which it hasn't) Howard's barb will stick. Expect to receive such barbs from the Government to be repeated weekly and faithfully reported in the Packer press.
Come on FA's, where is your communication strategy and PR plan? If there isn't one, you are just kangaroos sitting on the road and watching the headlights get nearer.
If Qantas loses the "I still call Australia Home" tagline then its brand is worthless. A large part of Qantas's value in this dangerous age, is associated with Qantas's image as a "Safe" airline. Picture bronzed anzacs carefully maintaining aircraft, Paul Hogan in every cockpit and luverly Australian flight attendants (of both sexes???).
The battle for flight attendants and others is to ensure that Qantas is no longer seen as Australia's airline if it does not give its employees a "fair go" Now a "fair go" is as Australian as you can get. So the first thing Howard has to do is brand FA's as Un Australian.
The obvious thing to do from my humble point of view, is to ask the question why basing xxx FA's in europe and hiring foriegners to work as cabin crew, putting AUstralians out of work, is Australian? However unless this is done immediately and loudly (which it hasn't) Howard's barb will stick. Expect to receive such barbs from the Government to be repeated weekly and faithfully reported in the Packer press.
Come on FA's, where is your communication strategy and PR plan? If there isn't one, you are just kangaroos sitting on the road and watching the headlights get nearer.
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Thanks DirtyPierre and others, I think I get it now. Come to think of it, I never was a great fan of Boonie or was it Boony, anyway whatever. I think I might be, dare I say, Un Australian!
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Sunfish - just try getting a QF bashing letter in the press, they just won't print them.
The FAAA tried paid advertising in the major papers, they were refused!!!
Smart move on Dixons part, getting a Packer on the board.
The FAAA tried paid advertising in the major papers, they were refused!!!
Smart move on Dixons part, getting a Packer on the board.
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Indeed.
And just wait when the media cross ownership laws are relaxed.
But hey - thats democracy. Thats what 46% of Australians voted for after all.
[Austin - we won! Yay, capitalism!]
(Uncommon Sense comments brought to you by the Words: Moondah Brook, and, Verdhello - hic!)
And just wait when the media cross ownership laws are relaxed.
But hey - thats democracy. Thats what 46% of Australians voted for after all.
[Austin - we won! Yay, capitalism!]
(Uncommon Sense comments brought to you by the Words: Moondah Brook, and, Verdhello - hic!)
I did'nt think about the press and Qantas advertising. but it is a powerful lever. OK FA's where is your website with all the goss for the media to lap up?
If you want examples of websites with an angle, go look at Groklaw.
Some of you have to be internet savvy enough to get your case out on the internet.
Furthermore, can you prove that newspapers will not print your letters or take your advertisements? If that is true, then that in itself in news (try the ABC) and it is also censorship, which is plainly un australian.
If you want examples of websites with an angle, go look at Groklaw.
Some of you have to be internet savvy enough to get your case out on the internet.
Furthermore, can you prove that newspapers will not print your letters or take your advertisements? If that is true, then that in itself in news (try the ABC) and it is also censorship, which is plainly un australian.
Last edited by Sunfish; 24th Oct 2004 at 20:56.
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There is no need to strike over the christmas period and while the FA union continue to threaten such then the public will wash their hands of them. Were the FA union to announce to the public that they respect that families need to be together over this time and that QF serves an important service in that regard and as a result they will delay industrial action till after the XMAS period then you will win a major PR battle ........ and have me backing you as well. Some may say that such delay will do less damage to the QF bottom line and so they will be less likely to negotiate......wrong....... the damage needs to be done to the "image"....... dollars are an immediate reaction but perception is "everlasting"......well, maybe a bit melodramatic a word but I hope you get my drift.
As to the pilots, remember "a rising tide raises all ships"......... there is no doubt in mind that you are in Dixon's sights again (or have we forgotten Australian Airlines and Jetstar already).
ps Angle of Attack.....take a good look at what an EK Captain earns in AUD terms before taking the leap.....might change your mind.
another thought if I could, I am sure the gentleman who is the head of your union is a good leader,smart,etc etc.....but he has no media presence.....get him off the box and get a spokeswoman who can think on her feet, blonde and attractive with an ability to hold peoples attention. This will then play against the nasty Mr Dixon attacking this image of an Australian Beach girl....powerful media stuff. I am sure some of you FA's will object to this and I agree it does have a shady side but if you think it a media ploy of folly then you have not studied the Virgin Blue advertisments....Bransons PR machine leaves yours for dead....learn from it. That brings to mind another question....where is your PR machine/media advice comming from because most still seem to see this as a battle over wages ( perusal this site is enough to convince anyone that the perception is out there).....you have got to move the arguement in the publics eyes to the exportation of Australian jobs.....specifically this little blonde demur Australian girls job.....queue Aussie girl in QF uniform. Good Luck but no PR = death.
As to the pilots, remember "a rising tide raises all ships"......... there is no doubt in mind that you are in Dixon's sights again (or have we forgotten Australian Airlines and Jetstar already).
ps Angle of Attack.....take a good look at what an EK Captain earns in AUD terms before taking the leap.....might change your mind.
another thought if I could, I am sure the gentleman who is the head of your union is a good leader,smart,etc etc.....but he has no media presence.....get him off the box and get a spokeswoman who can think on her feet, blonde and attractive with an ability to hold peoples attention. This will then play against the nasty Mr Dixon attacking this image of an Australian Beach girl....powerful media stuff. I am sure some of you FA's will object to this and I agree it does have a shady side but if you think it a media ploy of folly then you have not studied the Virgin Blue advertisments....Bransons PR machine leaves yours for dead....learn from it. That brings to mind another question....where is your PR machine/media advice comming from because most still seem to see this as a battle over wages ( perusal this site is enough to convince anyone that the perception is out there).....you have got to move the arguement in the publics eyes to the exportation of Australian jobs.....specifically this little blonde demur Australian girls job.....queue Aussie girl in QF uniform. Good Luck but no PR = death.
Last edited by fire wall; 25th Oct 2004 at 12:05.
