An Australian Dream Shattered
The Reverend
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This thread is rapidly becoming a Howard/Liberal shooting gallery target. Get over it guys, it was no accident that they were re-elected after a nine year period of satisfactory performance.
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...re-elected after a nine year period of satisfactory performance.
Last time it was security, this time it was interest rates.
Those mums and dads in the sandy suburban mortgage belts hocked up to their eyeballs in debt were hooked well and truly by the scare campaign and misinformation on the "economic" performance of the Howard government.
Interesting that labour lost a large amount of seats in these mortgage belt suburbs while holding or gaining nearly every single inner city electorate.
External influences play a much larger part on Australia’s economy and interest rates than ratty ever will, despite what he tells you.
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Kaptin M,
Air fares will decrease by about the same as, say, a part for a Toyota, decreased after the Patrick debacle.
That was pushed along by telling the public that if the wharfies were made to be more productive, then the consumer would benefit.
It didn't matter whether the wharfies moved 4 containers an hour, or forty. If each container held, e.g. a million $$ worth of spare parts for Toyotas, or even half a million, by dropping the handling rate from $1000 per cdontainer to $25 per container, you don't have to have a degree in applied mathematics to see that the end result, at the sales counter, is SFA.
It's not about a deal for the consumer. It's about a deal for Dixon. It might only be $12 million, but he will do that again and again over the year to different groups, and the end result will be bulk $$ in his pocket.
This reminds me of my ******** brother saying that a pollie wasting $100K on travel was just peanuts. He's right, it is in the overall scheme of a national budget. But when you have hundreds of pollies doing it, then the peanuts become coconuts.
I remember the argument used years ago by airline managements (and swallowed by the public), and probably still is, that if they could reduce the pilots' salaries, then airfares could be halved.
When the exercise was done, pilots' sal;aries were halved, the cost of MEL-SYD was reduced by 12.5 cents.
So once again, the smokescreen of reducing airfares is just that. It's about bottom lines and enhancing Geoff's position.
Incidentally where is your flag and title; mild, moderate and whatever else it was?
Air fares will decrease by about the same as, say, a part for a Toyota, decreased after the Patrick debacle.
That was pushed along by telling the public that if the wharfies were made to be more productive, then the consumer would benefit.
It didn't matter whether the wharfies moved 4 containers an hour, or forty. If each container held, e.g. a million $$ worth of spare parts for Toyotas, or even half a million, by dropping the handling rate from $1000 per cdontainer to $25 per container, you don't have to have a degree in applied mathematics to see that the end result, at the sales counter, is SFA.
It's not about a deal for the consumer. It's about a deal for Dixon. It might only be $12 million, but he will do that again and again over the year to different groups, and the end result will be bulk $$ in his pocket.
This reminds me of my ******** brother saying that a pollie wasting $100K on travel was just peanuts. He's right, it is in the overall scheme of a national budget. But when you have hundreds of pollies doing it, then the peanuts become coconuts.
I remember the argument used years ago by airline managements (and swallowed by the public), and probably still is, that if they could reduce the pilots' salaries, then airfares could be halved.
When the exercise was done, pilots' sal;aries were halved, the cost of MEL-SYD was reduced by 12.5 cents.
So once again, the smokescreen of reducing airfares is just that. It's about bottom lines and enhancing Geoff's position.
Incidentally where is your flag and title; mild, moderate and whatever else it was?
To all you Labor voters out there that are still think Latham should be PM,
there has just been an election
and guess who the overwhelming majority voted for.
Nobody likes a sore loser.
Furthermore, as one of the graduates who earn a good deal less than a hostie - I have no sympathy for them in this case and nor, I believe, will the public once details of their current deal filter through to the media.
there has just been an election
and guess who the overwhelming majority voted for.
Nobody likes a sore loser.
Furthermore, as one of the graduates who earn a good deal less than a hostie - I have no sympathy for them in this case and nor, I believe, will the public once details of their current deal filter through to the media.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Oh that brother, relax737 
So central to this action by Dixon to replace Australian F/A's with overseas labour, is an issue that will affect EVERY Australian, regardless of whether they fly or they don't.
The issue of Australians being made redundant by an Australian company - QANTAS - and forced onto Government Social Welfare benefits which are paid for by EVERY working Australian through taxation.
Now as if this weren't enough, those positions in QANTAS are now going to be filled by non-Australians, whose salaries are going to be paid by QANTAS!
If someone wants to go down the salary road, fine....le'ts go there. Try this.....
Here you have the CEO of QANTAS, on a MULTI-MILLION dollar per annum salary package, denying Australians on about 3% of his salary, now being told that QANTAS cannot afford THEM
Australia won't wear this.
It's UNAustralian, and ANTI-Australian!
And I couldn't give a rat's @rse about how jingoistic that sounds - it's the TRUTH!
So central to this action by Dixon to replace Australian F/A's with overseas labour, is an issue that will affect EVERY Australian, regardless of whether they fly or they don't.
The issue of Australians being made redundant by an Australian company - QANTAS - and forced onto Government Social Welfare benefits which are paid for by EVERY working Australian through taxation.
Now as if this weren't enough, those positions in QANTAS are now going to be filled by non-Australians, whose salaries are going to be paid by QANTAS!
If someone wants to go down the salary road, fine....le'ts go there. Try this.....
Here you have the CEO of QANTAS, on a MULTI-MILLION dollar per annum salary package, denying Australians on about 3% of his salary, now being told that QANTAS cannot afford THEM
Australia won't wear this.
It's UNAustralian, and ANTI-Australian!
And I couldn't give a rat's @rse about how jingoistic that sounds - it's the TRUTH!
esreverlluf
Don't be such a goose!
That you, as a graduate ( tell us about yourself ), can not negotiate a professional wage in excess of that of a Flight Attendant, indicates poor vocational selection or ability.
I have a sneaking suspicion your a QF Cadet or the like ( S/O ).
If so, to have no sympathy for your colleagues who are having their jobs outsourced abroad, a deep-seated naivity. What you make now, may well be little different to what you make on your first command in QF- if the Dixon/Oldmeadow reforms gain pace!
The public will have little sympathy for you too; when they discover what you get paid to fold maps in the jump seat.
Don't be such a goose!
That you, as a graduate ( tell us about yourself ), can not negotiate a professional wage in excess of that of a Flight Attendant, indicates poor vocational selection or ability.
I have a sneaking suspicion your a QF Cadet or the like ( S/O ).
If so, to have no sympathy for your colleagues who are having their jobs outsourced abroad, a deep-seated naivity. What you make now, may well be little different to what you make on your first command in QF- if the Dixon/Oldmeadow reforms gain pace!
The public will have little sympathy for you too; when they discover what you get paid to fold maps in the jump seat.
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Kaptin M,
I understand what you are saying, but the pollies and Dixon don't care. UnAustralian, whatever that means, is irrelevant, and the public WILL wear it.
The cost of having them on the dolewill be considered irrelevant by the politicians in the interests of having a successful QF bottom line. A few thousand former QF FAs on the dole wouldcost less than $3 M per annum. Not big numbers.
The Philippines and Indonesia don't have a mortgage on graft and corruption, and a sweetener sent the PM's way, either now or after retirement, will grease the wheels and that is evidentalready.
The PR war will include what they earn for what they do,the qualification they hold, and the public will hate them, just as they did you guys back 15 years when they were told you earned 100K for 30 hours a month. The first casualityof any war, including industrial campaigns, is the truth.
I guarantee you that the public will cop it without a whimper.
Your flag and other things are back. My ^%$&# computer it seems.
I understand what you are saying, but the pollies and Dixon don't care. UnAustralian, whatever that means, is irrelevant, and the public WILL wear it.
The cost of having them on the dolewill be considered irrelevant by the politicians in the interests of having a successful QF bottom line. A few thousand former QF FAs on the dole wouldcost less than $3 M per annum. Not big numbers.
The Philippines and Indonesia don't have a mortgage on graft and corruption, and a sweetener sent the PM's way, either now or after retirement, will grease the wheels and that is evidentalready.
The PR war will include what they earn for what they do,the qualification they hold, and the public will hate them, just as they did you guys back 15 years when they were told you earned 100K for 30 hours a month. The first casualityof any war, including industrial campaigns, is the truth.
I guarantee you that the public will cop it without a whimper.
Your flag and other things are back. My ^%$&# computer it seems.
Grandpa Aerotart
Gotta agree 100% with KaptinM on this subject.
Modern society is run by beancounters for beancounters...shareholders are merely a 'cost of doing business' as far as they are concerned.
And the system will always protect itself from attack...ALWAYS.
It may take many years but this can only end in meltdown for society...there is only so much juice in an orange.
But none of the present encumbants will be around to pay the piper...and the system will find a usefull scapegoat.
This is ALL globalisation is about..western corporate greed.
Modern society is run by beancounters for beancounters...shareholders are merely a 'cost of doing business' as far as they are concerned.
And the system will always protect itself from attack...ALWAYS.
It may take many years but this can only end in meltdown for society...there is only so much juice in an orange.
But none of the present encumbants will be around to pay the piper...and the system will find a usefull scapegoat.
This is ALL globalisation is about..western corporate greed.
Grandpa Aerotart
Hotdog you've obviously not heard the expression 'you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but not all of the people all of the time".
If you do not understand that Pollies and CEOs have been well briefed by people expert in 'controlling' the masses, in particular controlling what they believe is 'true' via the various media, you are truly nieve.
I see a time, perhaps to far in the future to directly effect us, when AIPA, FAAA, AFAP etc won't exist at all...they'll be a distant memory at best but more likely a salutory lesson in how employees should NOT negotiate with employers...i.e. individually.
If our children are lucky the fecking carnts who currently blight society will be up against the AEU...Aviation Employees Union. Incorporating Pilots (at every level of commercial aviation), LAMEs, AMEs, FAs, refuelers, baggage handlers, catering staff etc....employment in any facet of aviation will require membership.
The representatives will recognise and negotiate pay and conditions commensurate with recognised qualifications, time spent in the industry, relative responsibility, relative lifestyle issues (i.e. longhaul vs shorthaul, nightshift vs dayshift etc).
The downwood spiral of T&Cs will be un-ending until that time. It will take a willingness to co-operate in a collective, mature FAIR and REASONABLE manner...which is why it's a very long time in the future...unfortunately, human nature being what it is...as WELL understood by the forces arrayed against 'workers'.
It is an undeniable fact that current trends in T&Cs for the 'average' employee can only end up in people working far longer for far less...i.e. retiring at 70+ and being dead by 75. There is no other way Govts can allow things to go....the hole in pensions will see to that....not that pollies and CEOs and a relatively small % of shareholders will be affected thus. The generation retiring now are the last who'll retire on a good enough pension, for the most part, at a young enough age to enjoy a reasonable life in their last years. This last sentence does not apply to a person entering pollitics today...they'll still be enjoying pension plans in forty years that were deemed unsustainable for the rest of the population 10 years ago.
Remember too that 'shareholders' are not a homogenous group of winners...for one group to win another group (of shareholders) must lose.
But imagine a time when CEOs/pollies/Institutional shareholders will have to take on the entire work force....or not as the case may be 
Pure fantasy?
Possibly...but if you back enough people into corners who knows what is all of a sudden 'possible'.
Read GOD's quotes above again...carefully...particularly those pertaining to 'protecting' the rights of the company, the future growth, future profitability, future returns for investors..etc
GOD has no real long term controll over prices of fuel, aircraft, airport slots, air nav charges or any of a myriad of third party overheads. The only costs he controls are the terms and conditions of employment of the 10s of thousands of average employees...pilots, FAs all the way down to floor cleaners..easy targets all.
If you do not understand that Pollies and CEOs have been well briefed by people expert in 'controlling' the masses, in particular controlling what they believe is 'true' via the various media, you are truly nieve.
I see a time, perhaps to far in the future to directly effect us, when AIPA, FAAA, AFAP etc won't exist at all...they'll be a distant memory at best but more likely a salutory lesson in how employees should NOT negotiate with employers...i.e. individually.
If our children are lucky the fecking carnts who currently blight society will be up against the AEU...Aviation Employees Union. Incorporating Pilots (at every level of commercial aviation), LAMEs, AMEs, FAs, refuelers, baggage handlers, catering staff etc....employment in any facet of aviation will require membership.
The representatives will recognise and negotiate pay and conditions commensurate with recognised qualifications, time spent in the industry, relative responsibility, relative lifestyle issues (i.e. longhaul vs shorthaul, nightshift vs dayshift etc).
The downwood spiral of T&Cs will be un-ending until that time. It will take a willingness to co-operate in a collective, mature FAIR and REASONABLE manner...which is why it's a very long time in the future...unfortunately, human nature being what it is...as WELL understood by the forces arrayed against 'workers'.
It is an undeniable fact that current trends in T&Cs for the 'average' employee can only end up in people working far longer for far less...i.e. retiring at 70+ and being dead by 75. There is no other way Govts can allow things to go....the hole in pensions will see to that....not that pollies and CEOs and a relatively small % of shareholders will be affected thus. The generation retiring now are the last who'll retire on a good enough pension, for the most part, at a young enough age to enjoy a reasonable life in their last years. This last sentence does not apply to a person entering pollitics today...they'll still be enjoying pension plans in forty years that were deemed unsustainable for the rest of the population 10 years ago.
Remember too that 'shareholders' are not a homogenous group of winners...for one group to win another group (of shareholders) must lose.
But imagine a time when CEOs/pollies/Institutional shareholders will have to take on the entire work force....or not as the case may be
Pure fantasy?
Possibly...but if you back enough people into corners who knows what is all of a sudden 'possible'.
Read GOD's quotes above again...carefully...particularly those pertaining to 'protecting' the rights of the company, the future growth, future profitability, future returns for investors..etc
GOD has no real long term controll over prices of fuel, aircraft, airport slots, air nav charges or any of a myriad of third party overheads. The only costs he controls are the terms and conditions of employment of the 10s of thousands of average employees...pilots, FAs all the way down to floor cleaners..easy targets all.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 23rd Oct 2004 at 11:47.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Respectfully guys, let's try to keep this thread on the rails - this attack on QF F/A's (to start with) is significant not only from the Oz aviation point of view, but in the overall Australian workforce landscape.
If you want to run a post election disection do it on a separate topic, please.
By the same token, I would guess that Howard is involved in this up to his long eyebrows, as he attempts to smash the ACTU powerbase, which co-incidentally has long been the superstructure of the ALP.
When/if it eventually happens, then none other than past Oz Prime Minister - and Rupert Murdoch puppet - Robert James Lee Hawke, can be more certainly credited with achieving a decisive coup de etat, than he.
As a lifetime Liberal Party voter, I NOW do not agree with the way workers are having their (union) protection stripped away with the concurrence of the peoples' representative - the Government - to enable a priveleged few CEO's achieve their ambitions of outrageous greed, at the expense of not only the immediate workforce in their charge, but the overall Australian population.
As critical and envious as some might be of incomes and working conditions of others, actively flaming them will NOT improve your OWN conditions, nor advance you.
If you believe that you are better qualified, and deserve higher recognition/compensation, then seek to obtain it, without resorting to destroy others' (conditions).
IMO, Dixon is attempting to further himself by destroying the conditions of other Australians - he is a negative force in QANTAS...a non team player both in the QANTAS, and Australian sense.
If you want to run a post election disection do it on a separate topic, please.
By the same token, I would guess that Howard is involved in this up to his long eyebrows, as he attempts to smash the ACTU powerbase, which co-incidentally has long been the superstructure of the ALP.
When/if it eventually happens, then none other than past Oz Prime Minister - and Rupert Murdoch puppet - Robert James Lee Hawke, can be more certainly credited with achieving a decisive coup de etat, than he.
As a lifetime Liberal Party voter, I NOW do not agree with the way workers are having their (union) protection stripped away with the concurrence of the peoples' representative - the Government - to enable a priveleged few CEO's achieve their ambitions of outrageous greed, at the expense of not only the immediate workforce in their charge, but the overall Australian population.
As critical and envious as some might be of incomes and working conditions of others, actively flaming them will NOT improve your OWN conditions, nor advance you.
If you believe that you are better qualified, and deserve higher recognition/compensation, then seek to obtain it, without resorting to destroy others' (conditions).
IMO, Dixon is attempting to further himself by destroying the conditions of other Australians - he is a negative force in QANTAS...a non team player both in the QANTAS, and Australian sense.
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Hotdog
Do the numbers,54% of Australians voted against the coalition,46% voted for.I speak of all the people who voted Greens,Labor,Family First,Democrat and others...Add it up its 54%.How many people are eligible to vote? 13 million.So in a population of 20 million,6 million voted for the coalition.Where do I get my figures...Australian Bureau of Statistics.Look up the website.
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I may be wrong butterfield, but in Keating's winning year, a lesser % voted for Labor than the coalition parties. That is a lesser % than voted for the coalition this election.
Until the system is changed from preferential to first past the post, it will continue to happen. Neither party is willing to change from preferential because they are afraid it may work against them in the future.
But KM, you're right. This is ot the forum to dissect the election result.
Until the system is changed from preferential to first past the post, it will continue to happen. Neither party is willing to change from preferential because they are afraid it may work against them in the future.
But KM, you're right. This is ot the forum to dissect the election result.
The FAs that visit this thread can write whatever they want to, in order to argue their point and and try to get support. But it is a hypocrisy when they state that Dixon is only attacking them to put money in his pocket.
They are not doing this 'to keep their jobs'
They are not doing this to 'keep jobs in Australia'
They are doing it to keep money in their pockets, plain and simple.
When a base is set up in LHR, no longer will they fly to Europe. No longer will they get the overtime from the Asia-Europe sector. No longer will they get to sit in the Hotel hoarding their allowances.
Is that worth going on strike for over Christmas.....some of you will think maybe. You be the judge.
Are they going to lose their jobs - no. What they are going to lose is their overtime and allowances - there is a big difference.
My point is this - stop telling everybody the strike is about one thing when its really about another. Dixon is doing this to save money- yes. To say he is doing this to line his own pockets is an uneducated, knee jerk response of somebody who really lacks the ability to take in the big picture. You have your jobs, you will keep your jobs, it just wont be on the over-inflated salaries you were used to when the company was a government owned airline.
Its time to sat back and start to read some of his rheotoric with an open mind. Is he over-doing the doom and gloom picture? A little. But nothing he says isn't without substance. The changes being made, contrary to what you like to post, arent about lining his pockets. They are about ensuring the survival of QF. If you cant see that, then you need to start taking your blinkers off, reading, and paying a little more attention to goings on in the world, which occur further out than the end of your nose.
Is he going to attack the rest of the unions. I'd say thats a given. For those who keep comparing the FAs to the Pilots remember this - QF FAs are among the best paid in the world; QF Tech Crew are among the cheapest. Is he going to try to make them even cheaper- of course. But there is a very big difference in comparative cost(to other airlines) between the two.
They are not doing this 'to keep their jobs'
They are not doing this to 'keep jobs in Australia'
They are doing it to keep money in their pockets, plain and simple.
When a base is set up in LHR, no longer will they fly to Europe. No longer will they get the overtime from the Asia-Europe sector. No longer will they get to sit in the Hotel hoarding their allowances.
Is that worth going on strike for over Christmas.....some of you will think maybe. You be the judge.
Are they going to lose their jobs - no. What they are going to lose is their overtime and allowances - there is a big difference.
My point is this - stop telling everybody the strike is about one thing when its really about another. Dixon is doing this to save money- yes. To say he is doing this to line his own pockets is an uneducated, knee jerk response of somebody who really lacks the ability to take in the big picture. You have your jobs, you will keep your jobs, it just wont be on the over-inflated salaries you were used to when the company was a government owned airline.
Its time to sat back and start to read some of his rheotoric with an open mind. Is he over-doing the doom and gloom picture? A little. But nothing he says isn't without substance. The changes being made, contrary to what you like to post, arent about lining his pockets. They are about ensuring the survival of QF. If you cant see that, then you need to start taking your blinkers off, reading, and paying a little more attention to goings on in the world, which occur further out than the end of your nose.
Is he going to attack the rest of the unions. I'd say thats a given. For those who keep comparing the FAs to the Pilots remember this - QF FAs are among the best paid in the world; QF Tech Crew are among the cheapest. Is he going to try to make them even cheaper- of course. But there is a very big difference in comparative cost(to other airlines) between the two.
Last edited by mmmbop; 24th Oct 2004 at 01:24.
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MMMMBOP
Firstly,do you and Dixon share a speech writer?
The $18million figure that is bandied around equates roughly to the cost of 2 engines on a 747.400 ER.You keep making assertions about Qantas Cabin Crew Wages.....Provide some figures and make some valid comparisons.Also the number of Crew on a Qantas Jumbo is less than any other airline,except for Air New Zealand.
While ever you talk vacuous unsustantiated nonsense you appear to be nothing more than one of the Qantas management trolls who inhabit these forums.The facts,the facts nothing but the facts.
Perhaps you should read your PMs from time to time.
Could tell us how much a Pacific Baron earns p.a ?There is a reason WHY they are called Pacific Barons!
Firstly,do you and Dixon share a speech writer?
The $18million figure that is bandied around equates roughly to the cost of 2 engines on a 747.400 ER.You keep making assertions about Qantas Cabin Crew Wages.....Provide some figures and make some valid comparisons.Also the number of Crew on a Qantas Jumbo is less than any other airline,except for Air New Zealand.
While ever you talk vacuous unsustantiated nonsense you appear to be nothing more than one of the Qantas management trolls who inhabit these forums.The facts,the facts nothing but the facts.
Perhaps you should read your PMs from time to time.
Could tell us how much a Pacific Baron earns p.a ?There is a reason WHY they are called Pacific Barons!
MMMBOP
Before so quickly sticking it into to your colleagues, remember you will probably be fighting a battle yourself soon.
Would be real nice, having QF F/A's piping up and reciprocating some of the "support" noted on threads, when you ( AIPA ) are in the midst of fighting for your future prospects ( pay and promotion ).
I would be worried about your own upcoming battles considering QF pilots are by far the most expensive pilots based in Australia. And management probably consider the S/O group as unskilled and overpaid as the long haul F/A's-it would be cheaper to expand using experienced, already trained, ready to go, contract pilots and a shelf company, than the double training whammy of promoting current QF pilots.
There must be some spiteful divisions of the cockpit and cabin at QF, evidenced by the sentiments here.
Before so quickly sticking it into to your colleagues, remember you will probably be fighting a battle yourself soon.
Would be real nice, having QF F/A's piping up and reciprocating some of the "support" noted on threads, when you ( AIPA ) are in the midst of fighting for your future prospects ( pay and promotion ).
I would be worried about your own upcoming battles considering QF pilots are by far the most expensive pilots based in Australia. And management probably consider the S/O group as unskilled and overpaid as the long haul F/A's-it would be cheaper to expand using experienced, already trained, ready to go, contract pilots and a shelf company, than the double training whammy of promoting current QF pilots.
There must be some spiteful divisions of the cockpit and cabin at QF, evidenced by the sentiments here.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 24th Oct 2004 at 04:42.
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Divisions Among Airmen
You would imagine that Qantas Pilots are a fairly cohesive bunch....nothing could be further fom the truth.....747.400 has knuckleheads,GA,Academy and the Barons all sniping at one another.One Captain in particular is proud of not having spoken to an S/O fro nine sectors.A somewhat dubious record one would think.Then there are the shorthaul(767.Airbus guys),the workhorses of the company who have been shafted by the elder statesmen of the AIPA.Last but not least the 747.300 guys who are an affable but diminshing group.Then lets not forget the socalled management pilots.An oxymoron if ever there was one.
MMMBOP comes to mind.(But only for a nanosecond)
All have different agendas and all slagging off at one another.No wonder the AIPA has lost its clout....no unity.It is Dixon`s intent to bring these guys to heel as well.The FAAA,the ASU and then AIPA.Shouldn`t be anymore than a skirmish really.
MMMBOP comes to mind.(But only for a nanosecond)
All have different agendas and all slagging off at one another.No wonder the AIPA has lost its clout....no unity.It is Dixon`s intent to bring these guys to heel as well.The FAAA,the ASU and then AIPA.Shouldn`t be anymore than a skirmish really.