An Australian Dream Shattered
There was a soundbite from the PM on the radio this morning, where he was saying that Qantas crew going on strike in Decmber would be "un-Australian". 
Very disappointing that the PM has already stepped into what are at this stage negotiations between a company & it's employees. Unfortunately, it shows that the company is already 'softening up' the general public & media in preparation for the looming industrial battle...
Very disappointing that the PM has already stepped into what are at this stage negotiations between a company & it's employees. Unfortunately, it shows that the company is already 'softening up' the general public & media in preparation for the looming industrial battle...
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It's a tried and tested formula that the company are using. Next will be newspaper ads showing how much better off the F/As are compared to the poor old average worker.
Divide and conquer, never fails.
The F/As have had some positive press but if they dont ramp up the PR campaign they are on a hiding to nothing IMO.
Divide and conquer, never fails.
The F/As have had some positive press but if they dont ramp up the PR campaign they are on a hiding to nothing IMO.
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Not forgetting that the FA base salay is not all that great when one consideres the fact of working shifts, back-of-the clock, week ends, public holidays, x-mas.. It is the allowances that puff the pay pack out to make the salary seem over inflated!
IMNSHO, FAs get a reasonable salary and they deserve it. After all, how many other jobs out there demand that employees spend a sizable % of their lives 1000s of miles from home and family. I think that it is fair to consider the above average salary that FAs get to be recompence for being stuffed around
I case some of the brain-dead out there in pprune land have'nt noticed, the executive classes declared war on the white collar worker about 15 years ago. Jackson, Howard, Dixon
et al are after YOUR personal wealth. They make money by cutting YOUR conditions.
Looking into my crystal ball, I see an industry where everone is a 'casual', pays for their own training and is paid only for the hours that they work...not very nice , eh?
Now, raise your hand if you voted fof John Howard...thought so... morons......
IMNSHO, FAs get a reasonable salary and they deserve it. After all, how many other jobs out there demand that employees spend a sizable % of their lives 1000s of miles from home and family. I think that it is fair to consider the above average salary that FAs get to be recompence for being stuffed around
I case some of the brain-dead out there in pprune land have'nt noticed, the executive classes declared war on the white collar worker about 15 years ago. Jackson, Howard, Dixon
et al are after YOUR personal wealth. They make money by cutting YOUR conditions.
Looking into my crystal ball, I see an industry where everone is a 'casual', pays for their own training and is paid only for the hours that they work...not very nice , eh?
Now, raise your hand if you voted fof John Howard...thought so... morons......
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Flight Attendant Strike
1st Point - With Howard as PM, the stike will fail.
2nd Point - I am a unionist have been in 3 other unions before flying, in principle the FA's have a point, but I beleive they cant justify it. After all, Degree graduates I know are on 30's or if they are lucky low 40's for first several years. If FA's dont like being overseas for 50% of time dont take the job, its that simple.
3rd Point - Yes maybe the company will go for other sections of the company after FA's, I dont know, but if they give me $hit I'll go to Emirates or Dragon air, or whatever, without a problem. The nature of the job is different it's easier for pilots to move beacause we have skills.
4th point - Im not denigrating FA's in QF but if you havent realised its not a career in any other airline, havent you noticed?
5th Point - If you think Im an idiot I dont care, you didnt struggle for 13 years to get a career, and if you did... what the??
2nd Point - I am a unionist have been in 3 other unions before flying, in principle the FA's have a point, but I beleive they cant justify it. After all, Degree graduates I know are on 30's or if they are lucky low 40's for first several years. If FA's dont like being overseas for 50% of time dont take the job, its that simple.
3rd Point - Yes maybe the company will go for other sections of the company after FA's, I dont know, but if they give me $hit I'll go to Emirates or Dragon air, or whatever, without a problem. The nature of the job is different it's easier for pilots to move beacause we have skills.
4th point - Im not denigrating FA's in QF but if you havent realised its not a career in any other airline, havent you noticed?
5th Point - If you think Im an idiot I dont care, you didnt struggle for 13 years to get a career, and if you did... what the??
UnAustralian! Does anyone ever buy that line? The jingoistic notion that Australia and Australians some how have a monoply on a "fair go" and treating people "fairly". This phrase is bereft of meaning! It is the last line in an argument, something akin to ner ner na ner ner!
For Mr Howard to use that phrase is, as pointed out above, a good indicator of what is in store. Clearly lying about throwing children overboard, Mr Abbott denying meeting the priest, guaranteeing having no gst then bringing one in, ignoring UN resolutions...(add your own favourite dissemble from the last eight years) are all Australian traits at their core so Mr Howard is comfortable using them.
Good luck because you are going to need it with the government and parliament virtually inseperable!
For Mr Howard to use that phrase is, as pointed out above, a good indicator of what is in store. Clearly lying about throwing children overboard, Mr Abbott denying meeting the priest, guaranteeing having no gst then bringing one in, ignoring UN resolutions...(add your own favourite dissemble from the last eight years) are all Australian traits at their core so Mr Howard is comfortable using them.
Good luck because you are going to need it with the government and parliament virtually inseperable!
Last edited by Icarus2001; 22nd Oct 2004 at 11:32.
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"Better to Fight for something than to live for nothing"
if the strike fails so be it. But crew are ready for a fight and its going to cost Qantas millions in lost revenue.
Angle of Attack - we aren't striking about pay - we just want a guarantee that the bulk of FA positions will stay Australian based.
if the strike fails so be it. But crew are ready for a fight and its going to cost Qantas millions in lost revenue.
Angle of Attack - we aren't striking about pay - we just want a guarantee that the bulk of FA positions will stay Australian based.
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str - yes sorry so many issues to discuss, i forgot the basic problem, thanks for reminding me, i agree that it is not a good idea to be basing jobs overseas for a saving, after all, its an airline, when you hop on an aussie plane your expecting aussie faces. I beleive its a clandesteine effort to reduce the number of aussies actually. Unfortunately the punters have voted in howard, you cant win, and he will keep pushing to push fair dinkum workers into the ground the scoundrel.... by the way i voted for howard!! haha not!!
ps > how the hell did he get back in? im still flabbergasted!
ps > how the hell did he get back in? im still flabbergasted!
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1. If you work for QF in any job you should be sticking together, not throwing stones at each other - chances are YOU will be the next target of Geoffs 'productivity' drive.
2. The directors agenda is obscene personal greed - company law allows it. Shareholders fall for it.
3. dixon and howard have already stiched up the game plan - they even dropped a few hints yesterday so the union could pick it up - they both used the 'ESSENTIAL SERVICES' line. Yes thats right, howard is about to do a bob hawke. (How is a private company with lots of competition an essential services exactly? I am sure howard will be able to tell us).
4. FAAA - here is an idea. It might even work. The 'contingency workers' or 'strike breakers' as you like to call them (rightly so) can not be on 'standby' forever. So, don't give it away when you are going to strike, or all get the flu. Do it at short notice in a few months. See how many of them are still' 'hanging on ' for their 'glamour'
job then!
5. QF are the ones who sold Cabin Crew as a 'career', long before most of those here saying otherwise were probably out of nappies.
6. Good luck FAAA. You are the first test case of our new brave world we have elected. I wonder how many of those with a big gloating 'we won' liberal smirk will still be wearing it in 3years from now - and will still have a job.
Dixon is selling out the QF brand name for some personal gain - thats about the crux of it. And that is not good for your business.
2. The directors agenda is obscene personal greed - company law allows it. Shareholders fall for it.
3. dixon and howard have already stiched up the game plan - they even dropped a few hints yesterday so the union could pick it up - they both used the 'ESSENTIAL SERVICES' line. Yes thats right, howard is about to do a bob hawke. (How is a private company with lots of competition an essential services exactly? I am sure howard will be able to tell us).
4. FAAA - here is an idea. It might even work. The 'contingency workers' or 'strike breakers' as you like to call them (rightly so) can not be on 'standby' forever. So, don't give it away when you are going to strike, or all get the flu. Do it at short notice in a few months. See how many of them are still' 'hanging on ' for their 'glamour'
job then!5. QF are the ones who sold Cabin Crew as a 'career', long before most of those here saying otherwise were probably out of nappies.
6. Good luck FAAA. You are the first test case of our new brave world we have elected. I wonder how many of those with a big gloating 'we won' liberal smirk will still be wearing it in 3years from now - and will still have a job.
Dixon is selling out the QF brand name for some personal gain - thats about the crux of it. And that is not good for your business.
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Sat "Melbourne Age"
PM backs Qantas on strike staff
By Paul Robinson
Workplace Editor
October 23, 2004
The union movement came under renewed pressure from the emerging force of contractors yesterday when the Federal Government backed Qantas' moves to hire strike-breakers to minimise the effect of threatened industrial action over Christmas.
Prime Minister John Howard endorsed the secret training of replacement flight attendants to ensure adequate staff to keep Qantas in the air over the busy holiday period.
He told Melbourne radio: "I respect the right of a company to take action to ensure that it can continue to operate and do business and providing it acts within the law, it's entitled to do that."
Soon after Mr Howard's endorsement of Qantas' action, his Workplace Relations Minister, Kevin Andrews, foreshadowed laws to make it easier for employees to opt out of the traditional industrial system and become independent contractors.
Mr Andrews told a conference in Melbourne that Australia's workforce had changed irrevocably and new rules were needed to keep pace with reality. The Independent Contractors Act would stop unions from using the Australian Industrial Relations Commission to impose constraints on contracting.
Mr Andrews told the Centenary Convention of Conciliation and Arbitration that more than 1 million workers were independent contractors, which reflected a "modern, decentralised and flexible workforce".
He said the number of employees who relied on awards had slipped from 68 per cent in 1990 to 21 per cent in 2002.
Enterprise agreements and contracts now regulated 38 per cent of employees while 41 per cent of employees were covered by informal individual and collective arrangements. "This stream of the workforce is outside the jurisdiction of the traditional industrial relations system and complements it," he said.
Victoria's Industrial Relations Minister, Rob Hulls, rejected any attempt to introduce a "legal fiction" that would result in employees reclassified as sub-contractors.
"This could deny workers access to normal employment standards such as annual leave, bereavement leave, sick leave and annual leave," Mr Hulls said. "It would also have the devastating impact of undermining health and safety standards by allowing employers to shift responsibility for providing safe workplaces to their employees."
National Union of Workers Victorian secretary Martin Pakula said companies in tea-packing, skin and hide and plastics had tried to declare workers redundant, then rehired many as contractors, pushing employment costs on to workers.
"This is a move to save on payroll tax, workers comp, remove unfair dismissal obligations, superannuation payments - effectively passing costs on to people who are essentially employees," Mr Pakula said.
Mr Andrews said the Government would consult before drafting laws: "I appreciate there are some arrangements which could claim to be independent contracting which are not," he said. "That's not the Government's intention. There is a clear understanding in my mind as to who is an independent contractor."
Meanwhile, High Court judge Michael Kirby praised the Industrial Relations Commission, telling the convention it had protected Australia's underlying principle of a "fair go".
In a veiled reference to conservative economists at the Institute for Private Enterprise, Justice Kirby said there was "no room in this nation for industrial ayatollahs".
=========================================
PM backs Qantas on strike staff
By Paul Robinson
Workplace Editor
October 23, 2004
The union movement came under renewed pressure from the emerging force of contractors yesterday when the Federal Government backed Qantas' moves to hire strike-breakers to minimise the effect of threatened industrial action over Christmas.
Prime Minister John Howard endorsed the secret training of replacement flight attendants to ensure adequate staff to keep Qantas in the air over the busy holiday period.
He told Melbourne radio: "I respect the right of a company to take action to ensure that it can continue to operate and do business and providing it acts within the law, it's entitled to do that."
Soon after Mr Howard's endorsement of Qantas' action, his Workplace Relations Minister, Kevin Andrews, foreshadowed laws to make it easier for employees to opt out of the traditional industrial system and become independent contractors.
Mr Andrews told a conference in Melbourne that Australia's workforce had changed irrevocably and new rules were needed to keep pace with reality. The Independent Contractors Act would stop unions from using the Australian Industrial Relations Commission to impose constraints on contracting.
Mr Andrews told the Centenary Convention of Conciliation and Arbitration that more than 1 million workers were independent contractors, which reflected a "modern, decentralised and flexible workforce".
He said the number of employees who relied on awards had slipped from 68 per cent in 1990 to 21 per cent in 2002.
Enterprise agreements and contracts now regulated 38 per cent of employees while 41 per cent of employees were covered by informal individual and collective arrangements. "This stream of the workforce is outside the jurisdiction of the traditional industrial relations system and complements it," he said.
Victoria's Industrial Relations Minister, Rob Hulls, rejected any attempt to introduce a "legal fiction" that would result in employees reclassified as sub-contractors.
"This could deny workers access to normal employment standards such as annual leave, bereavement leave, sick leave and annual leave," Mr Hulls said. "It would also have the devastating impact of undermining health and safety standards by allowing employers to shift responsibility for providing safe workplaces to their employees."
National Union of Workers Victorian secretary Martin Pakula said companies in tea-packing, skin and hide and plastics had tried to declare workers redundant, then rehired many as contractors, pushing employment costs on to workers.
"This is a move to save on payroll tax, workers comp, remove unfair dismissal obligations, superannuation payments - effectively passing costs on to people who are essentially employees," Mr Pakula said.
Mr Andrews said the Government would consult before drafting laws: "I appreciate there are some arrangements which could claim to be independent contracting which are not," he said. "That's not the Government's intention. There is a clear understanding in my mind as to who is an independent contractor."
Meanwhile, High Court judge Michael Kirby praised the Industrial Relations Commission, telling the convention it had protected Australia's underlying principle of a "fair go".
In a veiled reference to conservative economists at the Institute for Private Enterprise, Justice Kirby said there was "no room in this nation for industrial ayatollahs".
=========================================
Told you so already. Howards "Un Australian" call is the first strike in the battle for whether Qantas Management represents "the spirit of Australia" or the FA's do.
Fa's its really simple. You have to convince the general public that the managment is sucking the "Australianness" out of Qantas. To put it another way, every time Qantas runs the "I still call Australia Home" ads (if they dare) you want the General public to think about Australian FA's.
Fa's its really simple. You have to convince the general public that the managment is sucking the "Australianness" out of Qantas. To put it another way, every time Qantas runs the "I still call Australia Home" ads (if they dare) you want the General public to think about Australian FA's.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Here's the depth of thinking required to be the QANTAS CEO, so that you can reap MILLIONS of $$$$'s in salary & bonuses!
On BBC TV yesterday, it was announced that QANTAS would save USD12 million by basing some 400 Flight Attendants in the U.K.
That works out at USD30,000 per Flight Attendant.
So Geoff, why stop there?
Why not reduce the salaries of ALL QF staff by the same amount - but outsourcing jobs to cheap, overseas workers?
Your "Performance Bonus" will go even further through the roof, the aviation sector of the TWU will be completely shattered, and the satisfaction that the "NT" (northern territories) part of the QANTAS name is now being fully realised!
QANTAS staff should understand now, that by publically stating this, as the basis for the saving, he's not going to stop at the F/A's, and you have to ask yourself
WHO will be next?
On BBC TV yesterday, it was announced that QANTAS would save USD12 million by basing some 400 Flight Attendants in the U.K.
That works out at USD30,000 per Flight Attendant.
So Geoff, why stop there?
Why not reduce the salaries of ALL QF staff by the same amount - but outsourcing jobs to cheap, overseas workers?
Your "Performance Bonus" will go even further through the roof, the aviation sector of the TWU will be completely shattered, and the satisfaction that the "NT" (northern territories) part of the QANTAS name is now being fully realised!
QANTAS staff should understand now, that by publically stating this, as the basis for the saving, he's not going to stop at the F/A's, and you have to ask yourself
WHO will be next?
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An Australian Dream Shattered???? What is the dream?
If the answer is being paid a lot, probably excessively for your skill level, then the dream is about to be shattered.
I appreciate that the FA body feels outraged that GOD is making an attack on their pay and conditions by employing UK crew, etc., but that's life and a commercial decision.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did guarantee that no Australian FAsw ould lose jobs, so what's the problem. I see nothing that says QF must employ onlyAustralian FAs, and I understand they have been employing non Australian pilots for some years, not many, but non Australian. They are based in Australia though.
Further, QF have employed non Australian FAs, based in SE Asia for some years also, so the argument that pax expect to be served by Australians seems a little outdated. In any event, Australia has been almost a melting pot of other races/natinalities for many years, and I recall being served by non Australian (anglo saxon) looking FAs twenty years ago. Hollow argument that one
Please don't see this as a personal attack on FAs. I have many friends in their ranks, but those friends, realists, realize that all good thingsmust come to an end.
Modern day CEOs don't care for people, or what they are worth to the company etc. They see only bottom lines and their bonuses and if that creates mayhem amongst the rank andfile then that is an unavoidable but manageable result.
Those in the pilot ranks, who are realists, will also knowthat this is the thin edgeof the wedge and they are in Geoff s sights. Good luck girls and boys. It would be better to get in there and try to negotiate as painless a solution as you possibly can rather than have the floor covered in blood.
I hope for all QF crews sakes that the damage can be minimized, but whatever is about to happen is inevitable.
Incidentally I found the following on News Com this morning. It's wo rth thinking about when you discuss work value/salary. The thrust of the article was that tradespeople are currently earning more than graduates because of the shortages in trades.
Aircraft maintenance engineer: $51,636
Mechanic: $32,864
Electrician: $43,420
Plumber: $45,240
Mechanical engineering tradesperson: $63,024
UNIVERSITY GRADUATES
Architecture: $28,000
Nursing: $35,000
Law: $39,480
Education: $39,700
Medicine: $45,000
Dentistry: $55,000
Source: What Jobs Pay 2004-2005/www.gradlink.edu.au. Look for the tile at the top of the home page that reads gradsonline –what are you worth?
If the answer is being paid a lot, probably excessively for your skill level, then the dream is about to be shattered.
I appreciate that the FA body feels outraged that GOD is making an attack on their pay and conditions by employing UK crew, etc., but that's life and a commercial decision.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did guarantee that no Australian FAsw ould lose jobs, so what's the problem. I see nothing that says QF must employ onlyAustralian FAs, and I understand they have been employing non Australian pilots for some years, not many, but non Australian. They are based in Australia though.
Further, QF have employed non Australian FAs, based in SE Asia for some years also, so the argument that pax expect to be served by Australians seems a little outdated. In any event, Australia has been almost a melting pot of other races/natinalities for many years, and I recall being served by non Australian (anglo saxon) looking FAs twenty years ago. Hollow argument that one
Please don't see this as a personal attack on FAs. I have many friends in their ranks, but those friends, realists, realize that all good thingsmust come to an end.
Modern day CEOs don't care for people, or what they are worth to the company etc. They see only bottom lines and their bonuses and if that creates mayhem amongst the rank andfile then that is an unavoidable but manageable result.
Those in the pilot ranks, who are realists, will also knowthat this is the thin edgeof the wedge and they are in Geoff s sights. Good luck girls and boys. It would be better to get in there and try to negotiate as painless a solution as you possibly can rather than have the floor covered in blood.
I hope for all QF crews sakes that the damage can be minimized, but whatever is about to happen is inevitable.
Incidentally I found the following on News Com this morning. It's wo rth thinking about when you discuss work value/salary. The thrust of the article was that tradespeople are currently earning more than graduates because of the shortages in trades.
Aircraft maintenance engineer: $51,636
Mechanic: $32,864
Electrician: $43,420
Plumber: $45,240
Mechanical engineering tradesperson: $63,024
UNIVERSITY GRADUATES
Architecture: $28,000
Nursing: $35,000
Law: $39,480
Education: $39,700
Medicine: $45,000
Dentistry: $55,000
Source: What Jobs Pay 2004-2005/www.gradlink.edu.au. Look for the tile at the top of the home page that reads gradsonline –what are you worth?
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relax737 - as said only a few posts ago - THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE SALARY.
Dixon has SAID there will be no loss of Australian jobs.
Can we really be expected to believe him? QF (mis) managers have lied consistently over the past couple of year, no wonder an overwhelming amount of staff recently surveyed said they had no trust in them.
If he is going to guarantee no loss of Australian jobs then QF need to agree to have this in the EBA. Something along the lines of overseas bases will close first before the loss of any Australian jobs.
Even then Australian jobs are being lost because instead of hiring Australians they will just hire overseas labour.
This is a company making nearly 1 billion dollars in profit. There is no excuse for these actions apart from greed on behalf of the management.
Dixon has SAID there will be no loss of Australian jobs.
Can we really be expected to believe him? QF (mis) managers have lied consistently over the past couple of year, no wonder an overwhelming amount of staff recently surveyed said they had no trust in them.
If he is going to guarantee no loss of Australian jobs then QF need to agree to have this in the EBA. Something along the lines of overseas bases will close first before the loss of any Australian jobs.
Even then Australian jobs are being lost because instead of hiring Australians they will just hire overseas labour.
This is a company making nearly 1 billion dollars in profit. There is no excuse for these actions apart from greed on behalf of the management.
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str, please understand I am not agin you!!
But also please understand, and I think you do, that whatever Dixon and the PM say is not always/never the truth. So.......when they say it's not about salary, read the previous sentence, and that is "....is not always the truth."
I would go so far as to suggest that the FAs do not REALLY know the agenda. Youmay think you do but you may not. I say this because when companies embark on a programme such as this, they are thinking one, two, maybe five years ahead of right now. Is the FA union that well equipped? My own answer is that they are probably not, just as the pilots weren't back in 89, and the same forces are amassing against you
I think what all are missing here, is that this, more than most industries, is a truly international business. Some businesses do business overseas, but an international airline IS overseas every day. Where they base staff is a commercial decision. I don't like it either, but it is the 21st century, and things are different from what they were 20 years ago.
I support your position on overseas staff going first in the event of a downturn, but commercially that would be difficult to support.
Australia has a closeted, almost quaint (by many other countries' standards), inudstrial relations system. I like it, but it's unsustainable. I've been overseas a long time, and know of no other system so protective of workers rights. I haven't been everywhere of course.
I recall having a beer with an Air 2000 pilot many years ago in Europe. He flew in Australia during the 89 fiasco, and he called the dispute 'the summer of discontent' and likened it to Thatcher's 'winter of discontent' shen she set upon the union breaking campaign of a few years previously.
I say to you all, again, good luck, but my personal view is that you should get in there and negotiate the least painful solution. All solutions will be painful, but there will be some middle ground that will be least so.
Bear inmind that you can't and won't win the PR battle,and that is a large parft of a modern industrial campaign.
Icarus, I agree.
KaptinM, I agree also. Who will be next? I think it's obvious.
But also please understand, and I think you do, that whatever Dixon and the PM say is not always/never the truth. So.......when they say it's not about salary, read the previous sentence, and that is "....is not always the truth."
I would go so far as to suggest that the FAs do not REALLY know the agenda. Youmay think you do but you may not. I say this because when companies embark on a programme such as this, they are thinking one, two, maybe five years ahead of right now. Is the FA union that well equipped? My own answer is that they are probably not, just as the pilots weren't back in 89, and the same forces are amassing against you
I think what all are missing here, is that this, more than most industries, is a truly international business. Some businesses do business overseas, but an international airline IS overseas every day. Where they base staff is a commercial decision. I don't like it either, but it is the 21st century, and things are different from what they were 20 years ago.
I support your position on overseas staff going first in the event of a downturn, but commercially that would be difficult to support.
Australia has a closeted, almost quaint (by many other countries' standards), inudstrial relations system. I like it, but it's unsustainable. I've been overseas a long time, and know of no other system so protective of workers rights. I haven't been everywhere of course.
I recall having a beer with an Air 2000 pilot many years ago in Europe. He flew in Australia during the 89 fiasco, and he called the dispute 'the summer of discontent' and likened it to Thatcher's 'winter of discontent' shen she set upon the union breaking campaign of a few years previously.
I say to you all, again, good luck, but my personal view is that you should get in there and negotiate the least painful solution. All solutions will be painful, but there will be some middle ground that will be least so.
Bear inmind that you can't and won't win the PR battle,and that is a large parft of a modern industrial campaign.
Icarus, I agree.
KaptinM, I agree also. Who will be next? I think it's obvious.
Last edited by relax737; 23rd Oct 2004 at 02:04.
Relax
How where those wage statistics deduced? I would suggest they have been slewed somewhat, for the benefit of an opinion.
Those professional wages are probably correct for someone who has just graduated. A little low for a professional that has been in the game for few years. Very low as matter of fact.
There must be some financial renumeration, on top of what you all deem an appropriate wage for a Flight Attendant, to compensate for being away from home for long periods of time, flying all night and sitting in an aluminium tube exposed to radiation and airline food!
How where those wage statistics deduced? I would suggest they have been slewed somewhat, for the benefit of an opinion.
Those professional wages are probably correct for someone who has just graduated. A little low for a professional that has been in the game for few years. Very low as matter of fact.
There must be some financial renumeration, on top of what you all deem an appropriate wage for a Flight Attendant, to compensate for being away from home for long periods of time, flying all night and sitting in an aluminium tube exposed to radiation and airline food!
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Gnadenburg,
As mentioned they came from a site that spewed out of News.com. I didn't make them up.
They probably are for firstyear professionals, although I know a doctor back in Sydney who works for a clinic and he earns less than 70 pa in his third year. They doctor who owns the clinic and employs twenty young doctors, is making a couple of mill, but he's a businessman and a doctor.
As for what a FA is worth?? Don't know. Whatever the airline is prepared to pay I suppose, and in these days of EB, the airline is entitled to ask them to work for nothing, and they are entitled to ask for 100 a year base. That's where the bargaining comes in.
All I am saying is that unless they get in there and negotiate a satisfactory outcome BEFORE the expiration of their agreement, something I don't think Qf want, then there is going to be a blue to rival the 89 punch up.
As mentioned they came from a site that spewed out of News.com. I didn't make them up.
They probably are for firstyear professionals, although I know a doctor back in Sydney who works for a clinic and he earns less than 70 pa in his third year. They doctor who owns the clinic and employs twenty young doctors, is making a couple of mill, but he's a businessman and a doctor.
As for what a FA is worth?? Don't know. Whatever the airline is prepared to pay I suppose, and in these days of EB, the airline is entitled to ask them to work for nothing, and they are entitled to ask for 100 a year base. That's where the bargaining comes in.
All I am saying is that unless they get in there and negotiate a satisfactory outcome BEFORE the expiration of their agreement, something I don't think Qf want, then there is going to be a blue to rival the 89 punch up.
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Whether you think an FA is overpaid or underpaid is really irrelevant.
What FAs are doing is attempting to keep Australian jobs in Australia. At the moment there is a cap on the number of overseas based workers that QF can employ. QF (obviously) wants to get rid of this cap so they can employ cheaper offshore labour whenever they want to.
Logical, of course. After all they are a business. The number crunchers have already worked out how many millions they will be saving by having more foreign workers.
QF has already 'guaranteed' that there will be no redundancies as a result of the foreign basing. Exactly, they won't get rid of their permanent full time staff, they will get rid of the myriad of contractors, casual and fixed term FAs they already have - all of whom are based in Australia. I am willing to bet my left butt cheek that there will be no loss of jobs for the current NZ or Thailand based cabin crew. So, whilst technically there will not be any redundancies, it means that Australian based staff will be replaced by foreign labour when their term ends.
Personally, I physically gag when I see the "I still call Australia home" commercials on TV. Everyone knows that QF is a global, competitive business (still not so sure about it being an 'essential service' just yet), but don't go selling your true blue Australian image then have Australian workers replaced with cheap foreign offshore labour.
My thoughts.
SG
What FAs are doing is attempting to keep Australian jobs in Australia. At the moment there is a cap on the number of overseas based workers that QF can employ. QF (obviously) wants to get rid of this cap so they can employ cheaper offshore labour whenever they want to.
Logical, of course. After all they are a business. The number crunchers have already worked out how many millions they will be saving by having more foreign workers.
QF has already 'guaranteed' that there will be no redundancies as a result of the foreign basing. Exactly, they won't get rid of their permanent full time staff, they will get rid of the myriad of contractors, casual and fixed term FAs they already have - all of whom are based in Australia. I am willing to bet my left butt cheek that there will be no loss of jobs for the current NZ or Thailand based cabin crew. So, whilst technically there will not be any redundancies, it means that Australian based staff will be replaced by foreign labour when their term ends.
Personally, I physically gag when I see the "I still call Australia home" commercials on TV. Everyone knows that QF is a global, competitive business (still not so sure about it being an 'essential service' just yet), but don't go selling your true blue Australian image then have Australian workers replaced with cheap foreign offshore labour.
My thoughts.
SG
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SydGirl, what I think about FA salaries is irrelevant.
But, by looking to recruit more overseas based FAs for QF, Dixon thinks they are, and that is relevant.
The next step is replacing Aust based FAs or having them work for less.
It doesn't get any simpler than that.
It is a global industry, and whilst I commend and support your position, it is not realistic in 2004. Sorry.
But, by looking to recruit more overseas based FAs for QF, Dixon thinks they are, and that is relevant.
The next step is replacing Aust based FAs or having them work for less.
It doesn't get any simpler than that.
It is a global industry, and whilst I commend and support your position, it is not realistic in 2004. Sorry.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
What the Oz public really want to know is "How much cheaper will it be to fly after this enema?"
Erring on the generous side, that works out to about 5 million per month, or 60 million in 12 months.
So by basing the 400 F/A's offshore, QANTAS have said they'll save USD12million.
That sure sounds like one heck of a saving that can be passed on to the Oz public, to make flying more affordable, doesn't it!
So dividing the 12 million bucks by the (conservatively calculated) 60 million pax we should see QANTAS slashing fares by............
20 cents!!!
But how much will Geoff's "Performance Bonus" increase be, based on this 12 million dollar saving?
And how much will it cost the Oz public in TAX, to support the 400 Australian employees (and their dependants) who are now placed in the Dole queue, claiming Government Social Welfare benefits?
To April 2nd, 2004, 20.01 million passengers had been carried for the year to date.
So by basing the 400 F/A's offshore, QANTAS have said they'll save USD12million.
That sure sounds like one heck of a saving that can be passed on to the Oz public, to make flying more affordable, doesn't it!
So dividing the 12 million bucks by the (conservatively calculated) 60 million pax we should see QANTAS slashing fares by............
20 cents!!!
But how much will Geoff's "Performance Bonus" increase be, based on this 12 million dollar saving?
And how much will it cost the Oz public in TAX, to support the 400 Australian employees (and their dependants) who are now placed in the Dole queue, claiming Government Social Welfare benefits?
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Howard wouldn't care 2 figs about the number of people who may lose their jobs; his role is to look after the Big End of Town, not the tax payer.
Now, the Big End of Town like it when people lose their jobs. The reason is because it enhances the realtive wealth differential between them and the white or blue collar newly unemployed. After all, if you lose your job and have to sell your house, who do you think is going to buy it? Why the Executive with his/her Big Bonus of course!!
Ladies and Gentlemen of the FAAA, please use your patience and intellegence on this one. Take no action which will lead to a bloodbath along the lines of '89. See Uncommon Sense's post above (point 4). These people have apparently been told that they are not to accept full time employment elsewhere until called by QF. String them out for several months and allow the Strike-breakers to tire of waiting and move on to somthing else.
I would like to point out how Geoff and Margret are always bleating about how the very existance of QANTAS is under threat unless they can cut costs(a similar appeal was made to the Aust. gov to prevent the SQ bailout of Ansett in 2001). Funny, the 2 majors in Australia make around $1.4 Billion in pre-tax profit. Maybe there IS room for a 3rd. carrier!
Now, the Big End of Town like it when people lose their jobs. The reason is because it enhances the realtive wealth differential between them and the white or blue collar newly unemployed. After all, if you lose your job and have to sell your house, who do you think is going to buy it? Why the Executive with his/her Big Bonus of course!!
Ladies and Gentlemen of the FAAA, please use your patience and intellegence on this one. Take no action which will lead to a bloodbath along the lines of '89. See Uncommon Sense's post above (point 4). These people have apparently been told that they are not to accept full time employment elsewhere until called by QF. String them out for several months and allow the Strike-breakers to tire of waiting and move on to somthing else.
I would like to point out how Geoff and Margret are always bleating about how the very existance of QANTAS is under threat unless they can cut costs(a similar appeal was made to the Aust. gov to prevent the SQ bailout of Ansett in 2001). Funny, the 2 majors in Australia make around $1.4 Billion in pre-tax profit. Maybe there IS room for a 3rd. carrier!