Song and dance over 'ageist' Virgin
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Make them jelly-wrestle for their apology.
(Sorry, couldn't resist...)
Air Hag, I'm starting to worry about you... I really do think you should seek some professional help about this jelly obssession you seem to have....
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Sat "Weekend Australian"
Therese Stewart is one of the attendants taking action
Win for crew in Virgin age case
By Ainsley Pavey
August 21, 2004
Eight former Ansett flight attendants have been given the go-ahead to pursue Virgin Blue for discrimination after claiming the airline rejected them because of their age.
Queensland's Anti-Discrimination Tribunal gave the women, who unsuccessfully applied to join Virgin Blue in 2001, a second chance to lodge their claim. Their initial attempt in May failed. The attendants, who refused to speak publicly after yesterday's hearing in Brisbane, argued in May that they were knocked back because they refused to sing and dance in their interviews with the carrier.
But the women, who were aged between 36 and 56 when they applied for positions as cabin crew, now say the airline was deliberately seeking "youthful-looking" applicants.
Virgin Blue failed in a bid to have the second claim struck out despite the airline's barrister Chris Murdoch telling the tribunal the claims were so subjective that a ruling could never be made. "The (claims) do not get across the line," Mr Murdoch told tribunal chairman Douglas Savage, adding that they were "vague, imprecise and defective, despite being reworded".
Ten women launched the claim, but two have dropped out. Simon Hamlin-Harris, for the women, admitted there was an error in the first claim of discrimination, on the grounds of refusing to sing and dance because it was juvenile.
But the women stood by their claim that the airline rejected them because they were too old, Mr Hamlin-Harris said. He said the company's selection criteria had included a category known as "Virgin flair", which should be tested at a legal hearing.
Mr Savage granted the women leave to file the amended claim, giving Virgin Blue 28 days to defend it before another hearing. The women are still not guaranteed of winning the right to a hearing on the allegations, with yesterday's victory only giving them the opportunity to file the claim with the tribunal.
Outside court, Virgin Blue solicitor Bronwyn Lightfoot rejected suggestions the airline selected staff on the basis that they were "young, with youthful attributes or appeared to be young".
"I believe that is their (the claimants') view, it is certainly not ours," Ms Lightfoot said. "We do not discriminate on age, we recruit on the basis of behavioural competency. They didn't meet the behavioural competency on that day."
Ms Lightfoot said Virgin Blue's oldest female cabin crew member was 53, and workers were chosen on their teamwork and interaction with other staff. The airline rejected more people aged under 35 than over 35.
One claimant, Carol Dowling, reportedly labelled the selection process "a meat market with a song and dance thrown in".
- AAP
=========================================
Therese Stewart is one of the attendants taking action
Win for crew in Virgin age case
By Ainsley Pavey
August 21, 2004
Eight former Ansett flight attendants have been given the go-ahead to pursue Virgin Blue for discrimination after claiming the airline rejected them because of their age.
Queensland's Anti-Discrimination Tribunal gave the women, who unsuccessfully applied to join Virgin Blue in 2001, a second chance to lodge their claim. Their initial attempt in May failed. The attendants, who refused to speak publicly after yesterday's hearing in Brisbane, argued in May that they were knocked back because they refused to sing and dance in their interviews with the carrier.
But the women, who were aged between 36 and 56 when they applied for positions as cabin crew, now say the airline was deliberately seeking "youthful-looking" applicants.
Virgin Blue failed in a bid to have the second claim struck out despite the airline's barrister Chris Murdoch telling the tribunal the claims were so subjective that a ruling could never be made. "The (claims) do not get across the line," Mr Murdoch told tribunal chairman Douglas Savage, adding that they were "vague, imprecise and defective, despite being reworded".
Ten women launched the claim, but two have dropped out. Simon Hamlin-Harris, for the women, admitted there was an error in the first claim of discrimination, on the grounds of refusing to sing and dance because it was juvenile.
But the women stood by their claim that the airline rejected them because they were too old, Mr Hamlin-Harris said. He said the company's selection criteria had included a category known as "Virgin flair", which should be tested at a legal hearing.
Mr Savage granted the women leave to file the amended claim, giving Virgin Blue 28 days to defend it before another hearing. The women are still not guaranteed of winning the right to a hearing on the allegations, with yesterday's victory only giving them the opportunity to file the claim with the tribunal.
Outside court, Virgin Blue solicitor Bronwyn Lightfoot rejected suggestions the airline selected staff on the basis that they were "young, with youthful attributes or appeared to be young".
"I believe that is their (the claimants') view, it is certainly not ours," Ms Lightfoot said. "We do not discriminate on age, we recruit on the basis of behavioural competency. They didn't meet the behavioural competency on that day."
Ms Lightfoot said Virgin Blue's oldest female cabin crew member was 53, and workers were chosen on their teamwork and interaction with other staff. The airline rejected more people aged under 35 than over 35.
One claimant, Carol Dowling, reportedly labelled the selection process "a meat market with a song and dance thrown in".
- AAP
=========================================
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I think hag has just proved my point. Singing and dancing is no more relevant than jelly wrestling. Unless of course you are required to nude up to do it. Therefore its not a valid selection criteria.
So, you can comfortably assume, as stated in the above article, that singing and dancing has zero to do with this claim now. It will be decided on the basis of age. VB is in trouble. This is now well and truly in the national spotlight. There are probably many more boilers out there where these ones came from.
So, you can comfortably assume, as stated in the above article, that singing and dancing has zero to do with this claim now. It will be decided on the basis of age. VB is in trouble. This is now well and truly in the national spotlight. There are probably many more boilers out there where these ones came from.
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Sat "Weekend Australian"
Age case against Virgin to go ahead
By Kevin Meade
August 21, 2004
SHE'S 53, she worked for Ansett for 29 years, and she sang I Got Rhythm when she applied for a job with Virgin Blue. Annie Hart is Virgin's oldest flight attendant.
She disputes claims by eight former Ansett flight attendants -- who yesterday won the right to sue Virgin for age discrimination -- that the airline favours younger applicants.
The complainants, who claim they were turned down by the budget airline because they were too old, have alleged applicants had to perform a song-and-dance routine, which they claimed was demeaning.
Although Ms Hart happily sang the old show tune when she applied for a job in February, she claimed yesterday that performing a song-and-dance routine was not mandatory in the selection process.
She was in a group of six applicants who were asked to devise a game built around a number of items, including a packet of Lifesavers, cards and a CD of songs including I Got Rhythm.
"The six of us decided that one of the rules would be that the first person who drew a king from the playing cards would have to sing a song from the CD. I drew the king."
A directions hearing in the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Tribunal yesterday began on an almost surreal note when chairman Douglas Savage asked counsel whether they had any problem with the fact he had been an airline passenger.
"I fly on planes like other people," Mr Savage said. "You're not seeking a tribunal member that's never flown on a plane before?"
No, it was not an issue, the two lawyers replied.
In May, the tribunal struck out the women's statements of claim after finding they lacked substance, and upheld Virgin's right to request a song and dance from applicants as part of its recruitment process.
At yesterday's hearing, the women, who were aged from 36 to 56 when they unsuccessfully applied for Virgin jobs in 2001, sought the right to submit amended statements.
Mr Savage told the women's counsel, Simon Hamlyn-Harris, that the complainants appeared to be presenting an entirely different case.
But he said the fundamen tal complaint -- that the women were rejected because they were too old -- had not changed.
Mr Savage accepted the amended claims and ordered Virgin to respond to them in three weeks.
============================================
Age case against Virgin to go ahead
By Kevin Meade
August 21, 2004
SHE'S 53, she worked for Ansett for 29 years, and she sang I Got Rhythm when she applied for a job with Virgin Blue. Annie Hart is Virgin's oldest flight attendant.
She disputes claims by eight former Ansett flight attendants -- who yesterday won the right to sue Virgin for age discrimination -- that the airline favours younger applicants.
The complainants, who claim they were turned down by the budget airline because they were too old, have alleged applicants had to perform a song-and-dance routine, which they claimed was demeaning.
Although Ms Hart happily sang the old show tune when she applied for a job in February, she claimed yesterday that performing a song-and-dance routine was not mandatory in the selection process.
She was in a group of six applicants who were asked to devise a game built around a number of items, including a packet of Lifesavers, cards and a CD of songs including I Got Rhythm.
"The six of us decided that one of the rules would be that the first person who drew a king from the playing cards would have to sing a song from the CD. I drew the king."
A directions hearing in the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Tribunal yesterday began on an almost surreal note when chairman Douglas Savage asked counsel whether they had any problem with the fact he had been an airline passenger.
"I fly on planes like other people," Mr Savage said. "You're not seeking a tribunal member that's never flown on a plane before?"
No, it was not an issue, the two lawyers replied.
In May, the tribunal struck out the women's statements of claim after finding they lacked substance, and upheld Virgin's right to request a song and dance from applicants as part of its recruitment process.
At yesterday's hearing, the women, who were aged from 36 to 56 when they unsuccessfully applied for Virgin jobs in 2001, sought the right to submit amended statements.
Mr Savage told the women's counsel, Simon Hamlyn-Harris, that the complainants appeared to be presenting an entirely different case.
But he said the fundamen tal complaint -- that the women were rejected because they were too old -- had not changed.
Mr Savage accepted the amended claims and ordered Virgin to respond to them in three weeks.
============================================
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Just purchased a few CD's from the local store in a nearby mall.
The 20 yo girl (bleach blonde) working in the store just got a start as a F/A with VB fairly soon.
She walks around the store in a daze, cant answer simple questions and takes forever and a day to serve customers - and thats when she's not on her mobile talking to her friends.
(Daddy must own the business).
Now if they are willing to take someone of that caliber with absolutely no idea and nil service attitude, surely they could give these gals a go.
Besides, they really want to work unlike the CD store oxygen thief!
The 20 yo girl (bleach blonde) working in the store just got a start as a F/A with VB fairly soon.
She walks around the store in a daze, cant answer simple questions and takes forever and a day to serve customers - and thats when she's not on her mobile talking to her friends.
(Daddy must own the business).
Now if they are willing to take someone of that caliber with absolutely no idea and nil service attitude, surely they could give these gals a go.
Besides, they really want to work unlike the CD store oxygen thief!
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I watched 'A Current Affair' and these "Old Boilers" appeared quite positive and outgoing, just the sort that I thought could easily be suitable as F/As with Virgin.
I have flown many sectors on VB and can vouch that not all the F/A are 6 stone blonde air heads. They come in all shapes and sizes but I can only really judge the quality by listening and watching the Cabin Supervisors. Gone it seems are the remarks about staying behind and clean the aircraft if you stand before the aircraft comes to a complete standstill or if you wish to smoke step outside but some do manage to express their personality which is a criteria that the selection process tries to focus on.
I haven't heard of anyone being asked to stand up and sing or dance in the selection process but they do get the applicants into teams and ask them to come up with creative ideas and present them as a team. I presume this would be to get those more extroverted or with leadership qualities to shine.
As far as I am aware there are many ex AN and QF Link F/As flying with Virgin. The turn over is still quite large and many are using the job to pay their way through tertiary studies and very few would be looking to make it a long term career. Who in their right mind would; spending half your life in a cigar tube repeating safety drills and nights away in hotel rooms?
As for the bimbo in the CD shop who knows she just might not like what she is doing but have the right attititude given the opportunity in the right work environment. How would you, TIMMEE, feel if circumstances forced you to work in a hardware store? Could you get really excited about nuts and bolts and potting mix?
I have flown many sectors on VB and can vouch that not all the F/A are 6 stone blonde air heads. They come in all shapes and sizes but I can only really judge the quality by listening and watching the Cabin Supervisors. Gone it seems are the remarks about staying behind and clean the aircraft if you stand before the aircraft comes to a complete standstill or if you wish to smoke step outside but some do manage to express their personality which is a criteria that the selection process tries to focus on.
I haven't heard of anyone being asked to stand up and sing or dance in the selection process but they do get the applicants into teams and ask them to come up with creative ideas and present them as a team. I presume this would be to get those more extroverted or with leadership qualities to shine.
As far as I am aware there are many ex AN and QF Link F/As flying with Virgin. The turn over is still quite large and many are using the job to pay their way through tertiary studies and very few would be looking to make it a long term career. Who in their right mind would; spending half your life in a cigar tube repeating safety drills and nights away in hotel rooms?
As for the bimbo in the CD shop who knows she just might not like what she is doing but have the right attititude given the opportunity in the right work environment. How would you, TIMMEE, feel if circumstances forced you to work in a hardware store? Could you get really excited about nuts and bolts and potting mix?
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If she and I were into jelly wrestling, I reckon you could do worse than the lady depicted here.
But I suspect we would share more sophisticated but equally enjoyable pursuits.
I am in my home, surrounded by the "younger generation" and I love em all and their mates to bits, but women of a "certain age" have a calmness and serenity that only life experience can give and are where my comfort zone is when I am on the move and the going gets rough.
OK I'll admit it I'm an 'ageist democrat', gimme someone with some miles on em as well as factory fresh in the cabin. 
BTW, does anyone know where you can get your odometer wound back
But I suspect we would share more sophisticated but equally enjoyable pursuits.
I am in my home, surrounded by the "younger generation" and I love em all and their mates to bits, but women of a "certain age" have a calmness and serenity that only life experience can give and are where my comfort zone is when I am on the move and the going gets rough.
OK I'll admit it I'm an 'ageist democrat', gimme someone with some miles on em as well as factory fresh in the cabin.
BTW, does anyone know where you can get your odometer wound back
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What was it Reg Ansett used to call them?
Yes, that was it, "old boilers".
Actually in the limited flying I have done, have always found the more mature hosties to be better.
They seem at least to be more interested in the job, more likely to take your kids for a walk, or mind a baby for a while.
The younger ones (often) only seem interested in chatting up the businessmen.
Plus if there ever was an emergency, I think I would rather have the "old boilers" in charge of any evacuation.
Yes, that was it, "old boilers".
Actually in the limited flying I have done, have always found the more mature hosties to be better.
They seem at least to be more interested in the job, more likely to take your kids for a walk, or mind a baby for a while.
The younger ones (often) only seem interested in chatting up the businessmen.
Plus if there ever was an emergency, I think I would rather have the "old boilers" in charge of any evacuation.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It appears to me, that these ladies can`t really decide why they failed to gain selection for entry into VB - the "excuses" have ranged from "not being able to do a sing and dance routine......not being blonde and leggy...and too old".
So "age" being considered the most likelyto carry any weight, is the one that`s been decided upon.
Many pilots who have been successful in holding employment positions with major airlines, have likewise been amazed at the selection process another carrier uses (eg. Emirates), and have wondered why they missed out on the selection process.
Are these ladies trying to say that ALL F/A`s in EVERY airline should be stereotypical of them, simply because they had long careers with Ansett?
Quite a broad, sweeping statement, pm2. Several years ago, on an overnight stay in Osaka, I saw the (American) F/A whom, I was told, was the oldest one flying. Although she presented well, she was slightly stooped (onset of "Dowager`s Hump/osteoarthritis?), and walked with short, slow steps vs the rest of the crew, who walked with a sprightly step.
The thought that crossed my mind at the time was "It`s likely that she would require assistance, during any evacuation.".
An F/A`s position with an airline is #1 for Safety - age DOES affect performance, and the ability to perform physically.
So "age" being considered the most likelyto carry any weight, is the one that`s been decided upon.
Many pilots who have been successful in holding employment positions with major airlines, have likewise been amazed at the selection process another carrier uses (eg. Emirates), and have wondered why they missed out on the selection process.
Are these ladies trying to say that ALL F/A`s in EVERY airline should be stereotypical of them, simply because they had long careers with Ansett?
if there ever was an emergency, I think I would rather have the "old boilers" in charge of any evacuation.
The thought that crossed my mind at the time was "It`s likely that she would require assistance, during any evacuation.".
An F/A`s position with an airline is #1 for Safety - age DOES affect performance, and the ability to perform physically.
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Sir Reg would never have employed a flight attendant in their fifties. In fact he would not employ a married one.
Now these old boilers would have started in the seventies under those prerequisites and you can be sure they didn't protest about it then.
Now these old boilers would have started in the seventies under those prerequisites and you can be sure they didn't protest about it then.
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Kaptin M,
I bow to your superior experience in these matters, however I stand by what I said.
Personally I would rather see some of these mature hosties on board any flight I was a passenger on, okay not all of them on the flight, but some of them.
I wonder how some of these younger ones would perform under pressure.
IF what you said is true, then all hosties should be young male weight lifters.
My Wife and I had a holiday in the USA some years ago, we found that although the hosties on United were mainly mature ones, the service was great, mind you we didn't have any emergencies.
BTW I take it the same applies to Pilots?
The younger and prettier the better?
I think most people like to see a mature aged grey haired Captain in charge of their flight, NOT someone just out of high school.
I know it applies even with Taxi Drivers, the Companies prefer mature drivers.
I bow to your superior experience in these matters, however I stand by what I said.
Personally I would rather see some of these mature hosties on board any flight I was a passenger on, okay not all of them on the flight, but some of them.
I wonder how some of these younger ones would perform under pressure.
IF what you said is true, then all hosties should be young male weight lifters.
My Wife and I had a holiday in the USA some years ago, we found that although the hosties on United were mainly mature ones, the service was great, mind you we didn't have any emergencies.
BTW I take it the same applies to Pilots?
The younger and prettier the better?
I think most people like to see a mature aged grey haired Captain in charge of their flight, NOT someone just out of high school.
I know it applies even with Taxi Drivers, the Companies prefer mature drivers.
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I am one of Reg's old boilers(&proud of it).In the60's & 70's when most of these ladies were interviewed,the height requirement was between 5ft.3 & 5ft.7 with weight in proportion to height. Age 21 to 35 & "pleasant appearance"
I guess Ansett were more upfront than the airlines are now,but Ansett had an image,T.A.A. had an image and so did Qantas.Virgin has an image and who can blame them for wanting to employ people who fit their mould.
I wouldlove to be cabin crew still,but I got married and had to leave.Should I sue the Ansett administrator for discrimination?
Get real.
I guess Ansett were more upfront than the airlines are now,but Ansett had an image,T.A.A. had an image and so did Qantas.Virgin has an image and who can blame them for wanting to employ people who fit their mould.
I wouldlove to be cabin crew still,but I got married and had to leave.Should I sue the Ansett administrator for discrimination?
Get real.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
all hosties should be young male weight lifters.
Who remembers the "hairy legs" that Ansett used to use, almost exclusively out of FNQ, because of the "types" of pax carried...mainly miners.
I think most people like to see a mature aged grey haired Captain in charge of their flight,
It`s a sad day when an employer can`t choose whom he wants working for him.
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It`s a sad day when an employer can`t choose whom he wants working for him.
Let me tell you Kapt, since you still don't seem to get it, that it's an even sadder day when employers are allowed to discriminate willy nilly. And it's perfectly clear that VB does.
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This kind of extreme right wing attitude is almost nazi in it's basis.
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interesting comparison with nazis coming from the shveinnen-hunden.
but so what, Hitler had plenty of good ideas too you know??
bit of a long bow to draw, calling it EXTREME RIGHT WING. if it was your company and someone told you whom to hire I guarantee you'd be shat off too.
so according to Pig-Dog and Kap M, every day is a SAD DAY but some are sadder than others.
but so what, Hitler had plenty of good ideas too you know??
bit of a long bow to draw, calling it EXTREME RIGHT WING. if it was your company and someone told you whom to hire I guarantee you'd be shat off too.
a sad day when an employer can`t choose
an even sadder day when employers are allowed to discriminate
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Nobody gets this, do they?
No-one is telling them who they can and cannot hire. They are however being told they cannot discriminate on the basis of age. And this is exactly what they are doing!
No-one is telling them who they can and cannot hire. They are however being told they cannot discriminate on the basis of age. And this is exactly what they are doing!
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Schweinhund
You are on every topic bagging Virgin. Come clean and tell us why. Were you sacked from VB or knocked back from a job with them?.
On the post subject, welcome to the real world. I am 46 and were knocked back because of my age. Every company in the world does it and I am sure if you owned a business you would do it too. It can not be proven.
You are on every topic bagging Virgin. Come clean and tell us why. Were you sacked from VB or knocked back from a job with them?.
On the post subject, welcome to the real world. I am 46 and were knocked back because of my age. Every company in the world does it and I am sure if you owned a business you would do it too. It can not be proven.
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You just don't get it, do you Dacshund.... 
Who CARES if they're discriminating (choosing) against age, they have to make a decision based on something and when everyone's sung their version of "I'm a Little Teapot", what else is left??? The jelly-wrestling pit, I guess.
And how would you know this is "exactly what they are doing" anyway, are you on the panel?
Hostying is a young girl's world.
Let's hear it for a boiler-free Aussie airline scene. let's face it, 300000 dirty old aussie travelling businessmen can't ALL be wrong...
A strike cleared out the old farts in the domestics. Maybe it'll do the same at QF.
Who CARES if they're discriminating (choosing) against age, they have to make a decision based on something and when everyone's sung their version of "I'm a Little Teapot", what else is left??? The jelly-wrestling pit, I guess.
And how would you know this is "exactly what they are doing" anyway, are you on the panel?
Hostying is a young girl's world.
Let's hear it for a boiler-free Aussie airline scene. let's face it, 300000 dirty old aussie travelling businessmen can't ALL be wrong...
A strike cleared out the old farts in the domestics. Maybe it'll do the same at QF.