Air Nelsons Future
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MOR
Shall we not get into the fact that UNCLE Hellen gave Air NZ $800 Mill. We all know why they had to after stopping a very good deal with another SA member.
Anyway, my simple point was that due to Air NZ having final say over the LINK airlines they are never going to allow NSN to get 70+ seats as that would interfear with COOKS markets and cause certain temper tantrams amoungst the airlines.
You say you can't find a job instructing or in airline management.
Maybe you didn't look hard enough I could name a few now that would have been even still maybe happy to take on somebody with your experience.
PM if you wish.
You have some very good and interesting points however you should not let them be clouded by your thoughts on the NZ industry.
splat
Shall we not get into the fact that UNCLE Hellen gave Air NZ $800 Mill. We all know why they had to after stopping a very good deal with another SA member.
Anyway, my simple point was that due to Air NZ having final say over the LINK airlines they are never going to allow NSN to get 70+ seats as that would interfear with COOKS markets and cause certain temper tantrams amoungst the airlines.
You say you can't find a job instructing or in airline management.
Maybe you didn't look hard enough I could name a few now that would have been even still maybe happy to take on somebody with your experience.
PM if you wish.You have some very good and interesting points however you should not let them be clouded by your thoughts on the NZ industry.
splat
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UNCLE Hellen
I agree absolutely that what you say is what is going to happen.
I am simply putting forward the idea that the thinking that leads them there is unimaginative, and dooms the NZ regional market to being stuck in the '80s. They could easily use the bigger aircraft across the network, amongst all the feeders, and make money - but they won't. Ask yourself this: wouldn't it be better if Eagle, Nelson and Cook were all flying the same equipment, to the same SOPs, having one spares stockholding, and so forth? You see, that is the other hallmark of a genuine Low Cost carrier: one aircraft type.
And by having larger aircraft, they could stimulate growth on the network. By having more efficient larger aircraft, save money.
I know, it won't happen. But it should.
C'est la vie and all that.
Regarding work, I didn't cast my net very wide. I only looked in my immediate area, and the only avenue I actively pursued was instructing (for fun, not money - who does it for the money?
)I have never sought a job in airline management!
Always interested to hear of opportunities though.
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wouldn't it be better if Eagle, Nelson and Cook were all flying the same equipment, to the same SOPs
It looks quite likely that Air Nelson will get ATRs, bringing the regional fleet to 27 (I think) ATR, 16 B1900D. When the Mount Cook Airline Training Centre (TM) is established (when the sim arrives), I can see SOPs being standardised between the two sections.
If you're keen on instructing, there's a large group of Easyjet Cadets that I'm sure you could contribute to (not to mention the many aero clubs and flying schools that are finding it difficult to hold experienced instructors).
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instructing.. for fun, not money - who does it for the money?
You've blown me away.... I thought all instructors are just trying to build time for the elusive multi job... Sure does seem that way when ya call into that imfamous flight school in Auckland. 
Back to Air Nelson... guess there has been no further developments?? Bring on the ATR 42 I'd say... I bet the guys there are hoping NOT to get the 340B's...
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Have heard from a very reliable source (the refueler) that Air Nelsons fleet will be replaced with...........F27s.........in fact the first one is being reconfigured from a freighter at Ardmore as we speak!
Personally I think this is great and shows the great foresight of all those airport companies that have kept the facilities in place for them.
What a great choice, I can just hear the whistle of those darts now.
Personally I think this is great and shows the great foresight of all those airport companies that have kept the facilities in place for them.
What a great choice, I can just hear the whistle of those darts now.
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Instructing is much more fun if you have no pressure to gain hours. I have about 10,000 last time I checked, so for me it is all about the joy of helping struggling students get to grips with aviation, and move on into great careers. I specialise in the "problem" students...!
I found that the instructors I learned the most from, were the old guys with nothing to prove, and a wealth of experience to pass on. They were generally a little calmer in the cockpit, too.
F27, now there is an aircraft. Cheap as chips and strong as the Auckland Harbour Bridge. Immense fun to fly, but dangerous as hell on one engine at MAUW. Good luck finding one with a serviceable autopilot.
Actually very few airports have the facilities for them now, one of which is an air cart to top up the pneumatics (the F27 has pneumatic brakes, undercarriage and nosewheel steering, for those not in the know).
I found that the instructors I learned the most from, were the old guys with nothing to prove, and a wealth of experience to pass on. They were generally a little calmer in the cockpit, too.
F27, now there is an aircraft. Cheap as chips and strong as the Auckland Harbour Bridge. Immense fun to fly, but dangerous as hell on one engine at MAUW. Good luck finding one with a serviceable autopilot.
Actually very few airports have the facilities for them now, one of which is an air cart to top up the pneumatics (the F27 has pneumatic brakes, undercarriage and nosewheel steering, for those not in the know).
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I was taught by one of the grumpiest and most experienced instructors in the country. He's still the most skilled pilot I've flown with, and I certainly gained a lot from his experience. It's a real shame there aren't more of these instructors around.
Bring on those fokking Fokkers
Bring on those fokking Fokkers
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MOR
The problem with NZ aviation is the lack of it. Look around at some of the people’s journeys:
Aeroclub instructing - 6 to 10 years
Mt Cook FO 10 plus years
B744 SO 10 plus years
Look at these posts where people argue which is better, B1900 or Saab. Most of them dreaming to fly the ATR72.
I can't believe any person would go on about flying a 1900, a swept up GA twin. I believe their pay rates are related to just how fantastic the machine is.
If you are a big F27 fan them you should ring Airwork as they are a company that will hire direct entry pilots. They also operate three B737 aircraft.
The problem with NZ aviation is the lack of it. Look around at some of the people’s journeys:
Aeroclub instructing - 6 to 10 years
Mt Cook FO 10 plus years
B744 SO 10 plus years
Look at these posts where people argue which is better, B1900 or Saab. Most of them dreaming to fly the ATR72.
I can't believe any person would go on about flying a 1900, a swept up GA twin. I believe their pay rates are related to just how fantastic the machine is.
If you are a big F27 fan them you should ring Airwork as they are a company that will hire direct entry pilots. They also operate three B737 aircraft.
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Ah yes but it wouldn't take long to set up each base, all you need is an oxy bottle and regulator or a compressor, get your min pressures and the engines will do the rest. They were designed to be used in remote third world countries where access to things like hydralic fluid at remote airstrips would be a problem (like Hokitika ).
The sad thing is that the very last F27C built is still languishing at Woodbourne because of no paperwork (VT-NED) if it can't be sold to an air force somewhere where paperwork is not as important then it will shortly be parted out
It is a late 1985 model with a very good set of avionics in it (Flight director, good A/P, GPS etc).
All the flight manuals are available, I am sure BG would run off a copy for Air New Zealand
after all they are the same! And there is a sim available in Florida for a $1 (a US one) 
).The sad thing is that the very last F27C built is still languishing at Woodbourne because of no paperwork (VT-NED) if it can't be sold to an air force somewhere where paperwork is not as important then it will shortly be parted out
It is a late 1985 model with a very good set of avionics in it (Flight director, good A/P, GPS etc).All the flight manuals are available, I am sure BG would run off a copy for Air New Zealand
after all they are the same! And there is a sim available in Florida for a $1 (a US one)
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I think Tape it shut might have nailed it on the head. The NZ Aviation Industry is only a small drop in the pond compared to the Markets overseas. Anyone who has flown into the corporate airfields abroad such as Florida, USA or Lanseria, South Africa. will know what I am on about.....every second aircraft on the ramp is private jet!
If you want to get your hands on some good machinery then maybe you should think of 3-4 years abroad. With the right hours (entry to NZ regional hours), you will at least get yourself straight into a twin-turbine with progression onto a Private Jet or such if the company allows. Plus you will enjoy the amazing experience flying somewhere different and meeting new faces.... Not to metion you will get paid twice as much whilst doing so! Just a thought........
If you compare the position of pilot overseas with the same hours to a guy in NZ it is likely youll find a big difference in the aircraft they fly. A guy on a 1900 or J41 back home would most likely be FO on a brand new biz jet of some sort overseas...... Getting paid twice as much.
But then again, there is no place like home! (NZ)
If you want to get your hands on some good machinery then maybe you should think of 3-4 years abroad. With the right hours (entry to NZ regional hours), you will at least get yourself straight into a twin-turbine with progression onto a Private Jet or such if the company allows. Plus you will enjoy the amazing experience flying somewhere different and meeting new faces.... Not to metion you will get paid twice as much whilst doing so! Just a thought........
If you compare the position of pilot overseas with the same hours to a guy in NZ it is likely youll find a big difference in the aircraft they fly. A guy on a 1900 or J41 back home would most likely be FO on a brand new biz jet of some sort overseas...... Getting paid twice as much.
But then again, there is no place like home! (NZ)
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It is even better than that. The company I was with over there took quite a few (20+) F/O's on the 146 with just 250 hours and an approved course behind them. The Dash fleet is still doing that. Easyjet and Ryanair will take just about anybody who has the type rating and ability - but then very few UK airlines are interested in raw hours. They really want to see a demonstration of skill in a simulator. If you have the skills, the hours aren't very important.
Tape it Shut is indeed correct - NZ is a backwater in aviation terms, and that is reflected in the attitudes of the airlines, and, consequently, the pilot community.
I am quite certain that many of the parochial attitudes here are the result of bitter folk for whom progression was slow, trying to make it tough for anyone who might be able to rise more quickly on the basis of skill and experience gained elsewhere. There is no logical reason for it.
Tape it Shut is indeed correct - NZ is a backwater in aviation terms, and that is reflected in the attitudes of the airlines, and, consequently, the pilot community.
I am quite certain that many of the parochial attitudes here are the result of bitter folk for whom progression was slow, trying to make it tough for anyone who might be able to rise more quickly on the basis of skill and experience gained elsewhere. There is no logical reason for it.
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MOR
Consider this:
In the past the Air NZ operation was combined. The progression was:
F27 Co-Pilot
B737 Co-Pilot
F27 Pilot
B767 Co-Pilot
B737 Pilot
etc etc.
Each pilot had every rating under the sun. Pilots were going from course to course. Each time a new pilot started the rest jumped up the ladder and generally across the fleet. It was reported that each new pilot cost one million to employ due to the cost of training all the others.
This was one of the main reasons for the Link operators. The same is happening now with Air NZ. It has 700 odd pilots with around 500 changing type. It must be costing a fortune. To take on experienced direct entry people makes commercial sense. The fact that we have Maori TV identifies that commercial sense is not a priority for Government funded / owned ventures.
Consider the plight of the Link turbo-prop guy. If he goes to Air NZ to fly jets his previous service means nothing. He is no different to an Origin, Air National, Air Freight, Airwork pilot etc in terms of seniority.
If Air NZ wants to be low cost it should start with training costs. Split the fleet using different companies to operate them. Stop all the pilots constantly fleet jumping and allow each operator to employ the correct people for the job.
For you it is possible to get employment at Air NZ while the Saab pilot with 10 years service stays were he is. So it is not all that bad. You only have to sit in the right hand seat for 10 to 15 years (all care and no responsibility).
Consider this:
In the past the Air NZ operation was combined. The progression was:
F27 Co-Pilot
B737 Co-Pilot
F27 Pilot
B767 Co-Pilot
B737 Pilot
etc etc.
Each pilot had every rating under the sun. Pilots were going from course to course. Each time a new pilot started the rest jumped up the ladder and generally across the fleet. It was reported that each new pilot cost one million to employ due to the cost of training all the others.
This was one of the main reasons for the Link operators. The same is happening now with Air NZ. It has 700 odd pilots with around 500 changing type. It must be costing a fortune. To take on experienced direct entry people makes commercial sense. The fact that we have Maori TV identifies that commercial sense is not a priority for Government funded / owned ventures.
Consider the plight of the Link turbo-prop guy. If he goes to Air NZ to fly jets his previous service means nothing. He is no different to an Origin, Air National, Air Freight, Airwork pilot etc in terms of seniority.
If Air NZ wants to be low cost it should start with training costs. Split the fleet using different companies to operate them. Stop all the pilots constantly fleet jumping and allow each operator to employ the correct people for the job.
For you it is possible to get employment at Air NZ while the Saab pilot with 10 years service stays were he is. So it is not all that bad. You only have to sit in the right hand seat for 10 to 15 years (all care and no responsibility).
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Hmmmm, I can see the initial bunfight over who gets to go to the Bankok sim centre if Nsn get ATRs.
I whole heartedly agree with the one type operation. Just look at the amount of A/C origin were operating a few months ago...
And under one company. One lot of everything. So much simpler. But what a senority catfight.
The common SOPs is a good point, esp with the increasing flow to Air NZ.
I'd guess that quite a few Kiwis would like the opportunity to fly in Europe. It's weather alone is an eye-opener. But are unable to get the required passport, therefore the right to work.
Quite a few of my distant rellies gave the ultimate sacrifice for that Island and bits of the mainland but I can't work there.
But, again, there ain't no place like home. Eh!
I whole heartedly agree with the one type operation. Just look at the amount of A/C origin were operating a few months ago...
And under one company. One lot of everything. So much simpler. But what a senority catfight.
The common SOPs is a good point, esp with the increasing flow to Air NZ.
I'd guess that quite a few Kiwis would like the opportunity to fly in Europe. It's weather alone is an eye-opener. But are unable to get the required passport, therefore the right to work.
Quite a few of my distant rellies gave the ultimate sacrifice for that Island and bits of the mainland but I can't work there.
But, again, there ain't no place like home. Eh!
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The 'stove pipe' is expensive during times of growth (now), but one reason it exists is so that junior pilots can progress to higher paid jobs (generally on bigger aircraft and/or command positions) in line with their growing experience . The Air NZ (and Link) pay structure recognises this, unlike some airlines that pay the same ammount regardless of aircraft size (within limits). If Air NZ had to pay 737 f/o's the same as 747 f/o's, their overall crew costs would be huge, and surely diminish any savings they would make from trying to keep people from moving seats. As well, stagnation/boredom is not good for maintaining standards, or staff retention (hence the high turnover of staff at LCCs).
Generally, over the career of an Air NZ pilot, they will move seats once every 5-8 years - hardly what you would call seat hopping. Since joining the company over 7 years ago I have had one seat (on the lowest pay band). The next few years growth are an anomoly of the (good) times.
MOR - your vast overseas experience would be welcome at any airline (if accompanied by the right attitude), including Air NZ, and it is the vast experience of new hires that give Air NZ a very high cockpit experience level compared to the airlines of Europe/Asia etc. It would not be uncommon for a 767 cockpit to have a 20,000 hour captain, 15,000 hour f/o and 10,000 hour s/o!
Recruitment in NZ is generally a case of over-supply and under-demand. NZ punches above it's weight in turning out pilots, thus at any time Air NZ has several hundred pilots on it's books, each with thousands of hours. If you only need 8 guys for an interview, and you have 300 to choose from, experience/hours/command time etc becomes a major point through which to weed them out. The interview process then goes about finding the best fitting person for the job in terms of personality and CRM/crew-suitability.
Splitting the fleets into different operations/companies creates overheads in other areas, so what do you achieve?
The airline industry is like no other, where a lack of experience, skill or judgement in the critical places (flight operations, engineering) means people could die. Non-airline people struggle with this concept.
BTW, the much-used/abused comments re the $800M handout from the goverment convieniently forgets a few things. It was not a cash handout or gift - the goverment re-capitalised the company through the aquisition of shares (about 82%). It's balance sheet was buggered by the Ansett mess - certainly a bad management decision coupled with goverment (on both sides of the ditch) interference. But the failure of the airline would have meant a failure of the NZ tourism industry, and in turn the economy. For a country the size of NZ, think of Air NZ as an arm of the tourism industry owned like a co-op with the stakeholders being the NZ public. Tourism is THAT important to NZ. The company was trading profitably at the time of the Ansett collapse, and has done very well - with new management - since. I understand the debt/equity ratio is now down to about 65% from over 90% at the time of the near collapse.
Generally, over the career of an Air NZ pilot, they will move seats once every 5-8 years - hardly what you would call seat hopping. Since joining the company over 7 years ago I have had one seat (on the lowest pay band). The next few years growth are an anomoly of the (good) times.
MOR - your vast overseas experience would be welcome at any airline (if accompanied by the right attitude), including Air NZ, and it is the vast experience of new hires that give Air NZ a very high cockpit experience level compared to the airlines of Europe/Asia etc. It would not be uncommon for a 767 cockpit to have a 20,000 hour captain, 15,000 hour f/o and 10,000 hour s/o!
Recruitment in NZ is generally a case of over-supply and under-demand. NZ punches above it's weight in turning out pilots, thus at any time Air NZ has several hundred pilots on it's books, each with thousands of hours. If you only need 8 guys for an interview, and you have 300 to choose from, experience/hours/command time etc becomes a major point through which to weed them out. The interview process then goes about finding the best fitting person for the job in terms of personality and CRM/crew-suitability.
Splitting the fleets into different operations/companies creates overheads in other areas, so what do you achieve?
The airline industry is like no other, where a lack of experience, skill or judgement in the critical places (flight operations, engineering) means people could die. Non-airline people struggle with this concept.
BTW, the much-used/abused comments re the $800M handout from the goverment convieniently forgets a few things. It was not a cash handout or gift - the goverment re-capitalised the company through the aquisition of shares (about 82%). It's balance sheet was buggered by the Ansett mess - certainly a bad management decision coupled with goverment (on both sides of the ditch) interference. But the failure of the airline would have meant a failure of the NZ tourism industry, and in turn the economy. For a country the size of NZ, think of Air NZ as an arm of the tourism industry owned like a co-op with the stakeholders being the NZ public. Tourism is THAT important to NZ. The company was trading profitably at the time of the Ansett collapse, and has done very well - with new management - since. I understand the debt/equity ratio is now down to about 65% from over 90% at the time of the near collapse.
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I agree one aircraft type for the entire domestic fleet would work and may go that way.
The B190 which is still a baby and is already to small for the routes it is operating on so when it bites the dust in a few years you may see all operators with ATR's. (similar type)
Tape it shut,
The only people who tend to argue on which machine is better are the ones who arent on any of them.
Sky surfin
As BCF breath pointed out, many of us would love to head off shore but are restricted due to passports or not having the cash to pay out for the conversions.
splat
The B190 which is still a baby and is already to small for the routes it is operating on so when it bites the dust in a few years you may see all operators with ATR's. (similar type)
Tape it shut,
The only people who tend to argue on which machine is better are the ones who arent on any of them.
Sky surfin
As BCF breath pointed out, many of us would love to head off shore but are restricted due to passports or not having the cash to pay out for the conversions.
splat
N4790P
Cloud Cutter,
Thanks for that.
The reason I asked was that I too am hearing rumours of a sim at MC. Trouble is. I don’t know where from.
A new sim will take +2 years to build and if you discount the non 72/42-500 sims in Greece, France and Finland etc..that only leaves the sims in USA, Holland, Bangkok and ATR’s own sims. All these seem fairly busy so can’t see them being relocated..
Any ideas?
Thanks for that.
The reason I asked was that I too am hearing rumours of a sim at MC. Trouble is. I don’t know where from.
A new sim will take +2 years to build and if you discount the non 72/42-500 sims in Greece, France and Finland etc..that only leaves the sims in USA, Holland, Bangkok and ATR’s own sims. All these seem fairly busy so can’t see them being relocated..
Any ideas?
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"It would not be uncommon for a 767 cockpit to have a 20,000 hour captain, 15,000 hour f/o and 10,000 hour s/o"
Soon to be a 15,000 hr pilot, 10,000 hr co-pilot and a 20,000 hr worn out old retread stealing the next generation's slot!
Soon to be a 15,000 hr pilot, 10,000 hr co-pilot and a 20,000 hr worn out old retread stealing the next generation's slot!