The Bondi Beach Project- Airspace Discussion in Sydney
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Todzalp
Todzalp, only because it's relevant, check out my wife's website www.mommygear.com I can bring over some stuff for you in August if you want mate!
Kaptin M
Unfortunately, in compliance with the rules of this forum, and the word I have given these participants, I am unable to disclose the identities of those attending The Bondi Beach Project. You'll just have to show up.
Best regards,
Chris
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Kaptin M
Unfortunately, in compliance with the rules of this forum, and the word I have given these participants, I am unable to disclose the identities of those attending The Bondi Beach Project. You'll just have to show up.
Best regards,
Chris
[email protected]
0011.1.724.493.0000
Chris Higgins, hello again. I will ignore the insults you choose to throw at me rather then dicussing the issue. Interesting this is a trait you seem to share with Dick Smith.
I note that you assume I am male with young children and I struggle financially as an instructor. Sorry, wrong, your psychic powers have deserted you.
Anyway, the reason for my post is that I am trying to reconcile these statements made by you...
So how are these major players to remain anonymous in a room full of people? Or do they intend to reveal their identity on the day?
My point about Dick is that if any AsA or CASA staff turn up to voice an opinion, his track record shows that he will make their professional lives uncomforatble.
I agree with your decision to let Dick speak first but I do not believe he has anything to add to the many pages he has written in debate with VoR. Do you? I mean Dick's position is well known. Did you fully read (and comprehend) the debate thread? Dick has not been able to satisfactorily answer most of the points raised by VoR. If he cannot do this in a bulletin board forum with plenty of time to research and consider his aswer how on earth can he be expected to do that on the spot in front of a crowd?
Once again let me point out that the professionals are now running airspace in Australia once again. As you are overseas you may be unaware that the frequency boundaries that NASIG/ARG had removed from the ERC/VNC/VTC have now been placed on a new chart and posted to all pilots. This is an example of AsA fixing the holes in "a proven system", at great expense I might add.
Have you had an opportunity to peruse the RAPAC material?
I note that you assume I am male with young children and I struggle financially as an instructor. Sorry, wrong, your psychic powers have deserted you.
Anyway, the reason for my post is that I am trying to reconcile these statements made by you...
Unfortunately, in compliance with the rules of this forum, and the word I have given these participants, I am unable to disclose the identities of those attending The Bondi Beach Project. You'll just have to show up.
As for the major players, don't worry they're coming!
In the interests of decorum, only those participants that want their names listed on the docket should be allowed to present their information.
So I guess you want people to show up wearing masks too, huh?
My point about Dick is that if any AsA or CASA staff turn up to voice an opinion, his track record shows that he will make their professional lives uncomforatble.
I agree with your decision to let Dick speak first but I do not believe he has anything to add to the many pages he has written in debate with VoR. Do you? I mean Dick's position is well known. Did you fully read (and comprehend) the debate thread? Dick has not been able to satisfactorily answer most of the points raised by VoR. If he cannot do this in a bulletin board forum with plenty of time to research and consider his aswer how on earth can he be expected to do that on the spot in front of a crowd?
Once again let me point out that the professionals are now running airspace in Australia once again. As you are overseas you may be unaware that the frequency boundaries that NASIG/ARG had removed from the ERC/VNC/VTC have now been placed on a new chart and posted to all pilots. This is an example of AsA fixing the holes in "a proven system", at great expense I might add.
Have you had an opportunity to peruse the RAPAC material?
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The psychic hotline please!
Icarus I do not claim to be psychic or claim to know who you are...or remotely understand where you're coming from, but I'll try and answer your questions.
1. Yes, you'll have to show up on the day at the meeting for any attendees present to identify themselves, then and there.
2. Unless you have won the Lotto or fly drugs at night, you are not rich from flight instructing or doing anything in G/A. Not really a psychic assumption, just a statement of observation of anyone I've met in G/A since 1983.
3. If you do, in fact, fly 747s on your spare weekends, you will agree that this experience allows a great deal of positive transfer back to abinitio instructing. I have found it so. If you don't fly as a commercial jet pilot, I hope that one day you will. It's really fun!
4. No, I have not read that report. I will be moderating a meeting between industry leaders that have different points of view. I will not be delivering a sermon...or "saving Mexicans", like in some Clint Eastwood movie either!
You seem quite angry, I hope you find happiness as I have.
1. Yes, you'll have to show up on the day at the meeting for any attendees present to identify themselves, then and there.
2. Unless you have won the Lotto or fly drugs at night, you are not rich from flight instructing or doing anything in G/A. Not really a psychic assumption, just a statement of observation of anyone I've met in G/A since 1983.
3. If you do, in fact, fly 747s on your spare weekends, you will agree that this experience allows a great deal of positive transfer back to abinitio instructing. I have found it so. If you don't fly as a commercial jet pilot, I hope that one day you will. It's really fun!
4. No, I have not read that report. I will be moderating a meeting between industry leaders that have different points of view. I will not be delivering a sermon...or "saving Mexicans", like in some Clint Eastwood movie either!
You seem quite angry, I hope you find happiness as I have.
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Originally Posted by Chris Higgins
industry leaders
I don't want names, but I would like to know the facets of the industry that will be represented. Pilots and ATC don't cut it. I mean AsA, CASA etc. Are these 'big guns' represented by people with the say so? Homey don't think so.
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Fair enough...
Todzalp, you have a relevant point. I do not know how I can reveal titles, without also revealing names by default.
Woomera has sent me an e-mail expressing his concern about divulging peoples identities on a private forum.
I consider myself a guest, so I will be abiding by the spirit of the Woomera Tribe!
Woomera has sent me an e-mail expressing his concern about divulging peoples identities on a private forum.
I consider myself a guest, so I will be abiding by the spirit of the Woomera Tribe!
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An update...
The Bondi Beach Project
What? An informal meeting about NAS and the latest proposed reforms. Interpretations of the changes from Dick Smith and other industry representatives. A lively discussion with questions directed through the moderator from the audience.
Where? Circular Quay Marriott. At the moment, we have The Thomas Keneally conference room. It is set up for 65 people in theatre style seating.
When? August 10, 2004. Meeting starts at 10:00 am, but you can come in and set-up any kind of presentation material or posters about an hour before.
Why? Good question. It's neither a sanctioned meeting with any authority, nor does it have a predefined goal, so why have it?
The reason for this informal discussion is that the pages of PPrune have provided us with excellent material to learn about the confusion surrounding NAS implementation and the many shortfalls in understanding what may have been detrimental to safety. The added advantage of interaction allows us to rephrase questions, see body language and assess sincerity in the recipient. We are unfortunate that even as good as PPrune is, this is the one way it does have a limitation. It is simply time for us to move this discussion into a truly open forum, and learn what we can about reform.
Light refreshments and a snack will be served at half-time.
Please RSVP numbers.
Please inform me as to what audio visual aids you will be requiring.
Please inform me of any food allergies or any special dietary requirements.
Thank you all for your time and the many loooonnng e-mails!
Let's set a deadline for all information to be received by July 15th.
Sincerely,
Chris Higgins
[email protected]
0011.1.724.493.0000
What? An informal meeting about NAS and the latest proposed reforms. Interpretations of the changes from Dick Smith and other industry representatives. A lively discussion with questions directed through the moderator from the audience.
Where? Circular Quay Marriott. At the moment, we have The Thomas Keneally conference room. It is set up for 65 people in theatre style seating.
When? August 10, 2004. Meeting starts at 10:00 am, but you can come in and set-up any kind of presentation material or posters about an hour before.
Why? Good question. It's neither a sanctioned meeting with any authority, nor does it have a predefined goal, so why have it?
The reason for this informal discussion is that the pages of PPrune have provided us with excellent material to learn about the confusion surrounding NAS implementation and the many shortfalls in understanding what may have been detrimental to safety. The added advantage of interaction allows us to rephrase questions, see body language and assess sincerity in the recipient. We are unfortunate that even as good as PPrune is, this is the one way it does have a limitation. It is simply time for us to move this discussion into a truly open forum, and learn what we can about reform.
Light refreshments and a snack will be served at half-time.
Please RSVP numbers.
Please inform me as to what audio visual aids you will be requiring.
Please inform me of any food allergies or any special dietary requirements.
Thank you all for your time and the many loooonnng e-mails!
Let's set a deadline for all information to be received by July 15th.
Sincerely,
Chris Higgins
[email protected]
0011.1.724.493.0000
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Some more invites....
We could also use some more people from the recreational side of aviation....SAAA (EAA), AUF, parachuting, gliding. I would really like to see some communication from these groups as well.
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Thanks to all!
Thanks to all for your continuing support of The Bondi Beach Project- A discussion of Australian Airspace.
Can someone please get me a contact name and e-mail address for:
1. SAAA or EAA representatives
2. Any nationally recognised body, representing flying instructors, the Yanks have NAFI.
3. Contollers Association.
4. Airline unions.
5. Ultralights
6. Gliders
7. Parachutists
In addition, could someone tell me how to get hold of Steve Creedy. He used to work in Pittsburgh and is now at The Australian. Anyone know his e-mail? Direct contact?
Thanks to all!
Chris Higgins
[email protected]
724.493.0000
Can someone please get me a contact name and e-mail address for:
1. SAAA or EAA representatives
2. Any nationally recognised body, representing flying instructors, the Yanks have NAFI.
3. Contollers Association.
4. Airline unions.
5. Ultralights
6. Gliders
7. Parachutists
In addition, could someone tell me how to get hold of Steve Creedy. He used to work in Pittsburgh and is now at The Australian. Anyone know his e-mail? Direct contact?
Thanks to all!
Chris Higgins
[email protected]
724.493.0000
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Another update...
It seems that there are quite a few that would like to come, but can't be sure of their schedules just yet. So I propose a slight change.
No RSVP required!
The conference will be open style seating with no food, to save on expense.
Same time, same place!
Hope you can make it.
Chris
No RSVP required!
The conference will be open style seating with no food, to save on expense.
Same time, same place!
Hope you can make it.
Chris
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Chris,
Can I ask how you plan to act as an unbiased mediator when your recent comments on other threads seem to indicate an unmitigated distrust/hatred of Australian ATCs and simultaneous support for Dick Smith which borders on sycophancy?
Can I ask how you plan to act as an unbiased mediator when your recent comments on other threads seem to indicate an unmitigated distrust/hatred of Australian ATCs and simultaneous support for Dick Smith which borders on sycophancy?
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Adamastor
Yes, you can ask any question you want. Basically, I have no objection to any kind of debate on these forums.
I am not in support of Dick Smith flying a single engine aircraft all the way from Lord Howe and I'm also not in favour of turning PPrune into a shooting gallery for cowards!
His questions deserved a professional reply. To date, I haven't seen one on that forum.
You want to keep the lid shut on World's Worst? I think he should be given enough rope to hang himself, without any help from the moderator. If he doesn't do that, shouldn't we question if there might be some truth to his statements? You say there is none? Okay, then answer some of his questions about pay-scale and "events" involving controller performance.
Is it true that Bernie Smith, CEO of Air Services Australia, earns more than twice as much as the Australian Prime Minister?
How the hell is a flight school operator with a bunch of Cessna 150s supposed to afford his charges and those of CASA?
Adamastor, Todzalp and others, if you want to prevent a balance to these discussions and answer some of these questions, you'd better show up!
I am not in support of Dick Smith flying a single engine aircraft all the way from Lord Howe and I'm also not in favour of turning PPrune into a shooting gallery for cowards!
His questions deserved a professional reply. To date, I haven't seen one on that forum.
You want to keep the lid shut on World's Worst? I think he should be given enough rope to hang himself, without any help from the moderator. If he doesn't do that, shouldn't we question if there might be some truth to his statements? You say there is none? Okay, then answer some of his questions about pay-scale and "events" involving controller performance.
Is it true that Bernie Smith, CEO of Air Services Australia, earns more than twice as much as the Australian Prime Minister?
How the hell is a flight school operator with a bunch of Cessna 150s supposed to afford his charges and those of CASA?
Adamastor, Todzalp and others, if you want to prevent a balance to these discussions and answer some of these questions, you'd better show up!
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Dude, in case you missed it, I am bashing bamboo under my finger nails that day. I am somewhat confused as to how you think ATC pay scales are a topic for discussion at this little whinge fest of yours. I take it pilot, hostie, engineer, baggage handlers, Airline exec, Airport landing fees, maitenence etc are just as high a priority? I assume that you will be listing other individuals that fit the mentioned categories and have them 'explain' themselves in the interest of furthering you non biased facilitator status? Didn't think so.
By these Snarek/BIK clones coming up with their allegations and bringing the conversation towards a direct attack on the one group actively trying to do something about this mess for absolutely no personal gain, it shows us the type of person (LOOSE USAGE) that we unfortunately have way too many of in this industry. Incidentally I actually earned less than my base salary (as it stands now) last financial year. There you go. Question answered. The day that you and your buddies want to start pissing into the wind by starting up a 'ATC/Pilots/Execs' are over paid arguments shows me and all others that you are irrelevant to airspace safety and should do the public the courtesy of staying out of this.
Bout time you stayed out of this. It is tiring me pointing out lack of intelligence (not a snipe but an actual observation) as post after post you throw up things that make me cringe on your behalf and you are the least qualified through your own admissions to be involved here.
By these Snarek/BIK clones coming up with their allegations and bringing the conversation towards a direct attack on the one group actively trying to do something about this mess for absolutely no personal gain, it shows us the type of person (LOOSE USAGE) that we unfortunately have way too many of in this industry. Incidentally I actually earned less than my base salary (as it stands now) last financial year. There you go. Question answered. The day that you and your buddies want to start pissing into the wind by starting up a 'ATC/Pilots/Execs' are over paid arguments shows me and all others that you are irrelevant to airspace safety and should do the public the courtesy of staying out of this.
Bout time you stayed out of this. It is tiring me pointing out lack of intelligence (not a snipe but an actual observation) as post after post you throw up things that make me cringe on your behalf and you are the least qualified through your own admissions to be involved here.
Last edited by tobzalp; 27th Jul 2004 at 20:13.
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Tobzalp,
This website is open to all users. This is not a beauty pagaent and I am not competing for Miss Congeniality.
Your insulting behavior to other users and common uses of denegrating toilet wall scribbling leads me to believe that you must have had a very lonely childhood.
I had to laugh at you on another post when you called the second richest man in the world a "dumb Yank".
No doubt you will use this opportunity to plagarize someone elses artististic expression again and add to it your vandalism, believing it represents a pearl of wisdom.
No, I will not leave this forum to you and your cronies, who can only give and not take!
This website is open to all users. This is not a beauty pagaent and I am not competing for Miss Congeniality.
Your insulting behavior to other users and common uses of denegrating toilet wall scribbling leads me to believe that you must have had a very lonely childhood.
I had to laugh at you on another post when you called the second richest man in the world a "dumb Yank".
No doubt you will use this opportunity to plagarize someone elses artististic expression again and add to it your vandalism, believing it represents a pearl of wisdom.
No, I will not leave this forum to you and your cronies, who can only give and not take!
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 28th Jul 2004 at 02:57.
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Ho hum. Seriously, you don't listen do you (nor, it appears, can you read. My user name is right there on the screen and you cannot tell the difference between b and d). You start a thread about some impartial airspace debate, throw down some challenges, swear that it will be a free for all, tell us all the no matter what Dick Smith will be the first speaker, constantly tell us your position with regard to your agenda and bias, make no qualms about what you think of certain groups in the indusrty and then expect us to take you seriously. I for one do not care what you think of my stance. It is of no consequence. When you cannot argue your side with cold facts, just like Dick Smith cannot, your inconsistencies and lack of understanding must be pointed out. My cronies and I will not stop until this mess is fixed and your suggestion is not a tool to do so. Deal with it.
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I am dealing with all of this perfectly fine thank you. In fact, as a person who has no financial interest or political affiliation, I am enjoying it quite a lot.
Patriotism can be shown in many ways. I have quite a lot of money invested in Australia. I have a wealth of friends there from my old days in The Hastings State Emergency Services and the Port Macquarie Flynn's Beach Surf Life Saving. I always drop by the motorcycle shop that sponsored my racing as a teenager and stay on the farm West of Wauchope where I was raised.
Tobzalp, you have shown a great deal of attitude against all things American, yet you use quite a lot of American slang and colloaquialisms. My Dick Smith Electronics Crystal Ball tells me you probably have a post 1971 birthdate, (homey??). If so, I question where you went to University to obtain a tertiary qualification that makes judgements about a person's intelligence.
As someone who does have a Bachelor of Science Degree, who learned to fly in Australia, who has repetitively been, "held in the Manly area", (don't you just love that when it's a female controller!) and flown all around the world: yes I am qualified to make a comparison about Oystraya and Ummerica.
I don't know whether to think that a Yank on exchange stole your first love or whether you were told to beat it by an American girl you thought attractive...maybe you're just a pathetic public servant who likes to keep things easy. My crystal ball is old and it gets a little fuzzy.
But...this I will say!
If you truly have a cure for the Australian Airspace debacle.
If you can truly get all factions of gov't and industry dancing from the same sheet of music.
If you can make it fun and affordable for a kid to learn to fly.
If you can honestly restore the public's faith in our industry.
If you can improve on an excellent, but not perfect, industry safety record...
Then I and probably even your nemesis Dick Smith will make sure you are knighted by the Queen!
Goodnight guy!
and I'll even call you Tobzalp if you like...from planet where?!
Patriotism can be shown in many ways. I have quite a lot of money invested in Australia. I have a wealth of friends there from my old days in The Hastings State Emergency Services and the Port Macquarie Flynn's Beach Surf Life Saving. I always drop by the motorcycle shop that sponsored my racing as a teenager and stay on the farm West of Wauchope where I was raised.
Tobzalp, you have shown a great deal of attitude against all things American, yet you use quite a lot of American slang and colloaquialisms. My Dick Smith Electronics Crystal Ball tells me you probably have a post 1971 birthdate, (homey??). If so, I question where you went to University to obtain a tertiary qualification that makes judgements about a person's intelligence.
As someone who does have a Bachelor of Science Degree, who learned to fly in Australia, who has repetitively been, "held in the Manly area", (don't you just love that when it's a female controller!) and flown all around the world: yes I am qualified to make a comparison about Oystraya and Ummerica.
I don't know whether to think that a Yank on exchange stole your first love or whether you were told to beat it by an American girl you thought attractive...maybe you're just a pathetic public servant who likes to keep things easy. My crystal ball is old and it gets a little fuzzy.
But...this I will say!
If you truly have a cure for the Australian Airspace debacle.
If you can truly get all factions of gov't and industry dancing from the same sheet of music.
If you can make it fun and affordable for a kid to learn to fly.
If you can honestly restore the public's faith in our industry.
If you can improve on an excellent, but not perfect, industry safety record...
Then I and probably even your nemesis Dick Smith will make sure you are knighted by the Queen!
Goodnight guy!
and I'll even call you Tobzalp if you like...from planet where?!
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 28th Jul 2004 at 02:56.
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Chris,
Can you just clarify the aim or objective of this meeting.
What do you expect to walk away with at the end of the day - and who are you going to give it to - and how are they going to implement it - and how will it be seen to be impartial and completely inclusive?
I am taking no sides - I am intrigued nonetheless.
I am rostered for 16 hours of Air traffic control in that 24 hour period - so lets nobody talk about underworked overpaid ATC's when I can't turn up to argue the point okay!
(If you get bored you might like to discuss the fatigue factor in the 15th or 16th hour of a controller doing that job looking after your flight and the fact there are NO required breaks in Australia for ATC)
Can you just clarify the aim or objective of this meeting.
What do you expect to walk away with at the end of the day - and who are you going to give it to - and how are they going to implement it - and how will it be seen to be impartial and completely inclusive?
I am taking no sides - I am intrigued nonetheless.
I am rostered for 16 hours of Air traffic control in that 24 hour period - so lets nobody talk about underworked overpaid ATC's when I can't turn up to argue the point okay!
(If you get bored you might like to discuss the fatigue factor in the 15th or 16th hour of a controller doing that job looking after your flight and the fact there are NO required breaks in Australia for ATC)
Last edited by Uncommon Sense; 29th Jul 2004 at 06:44.
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Uncommon Sense
I completely understand where you stand on fatigue. When I was in New York we were flying scheduled reg's and we were all told, "legal to start, legal to finish".
We actually had a crew that had been on duty 19 hours during the blizzard of 1996, where they found themselves deiced twice before each take-off and nine hours behind schedule!
Simply put, we had to have a "safety day". Some crews were admitting to falling asleep on taxiways and others in flight. We found rooms at an airport hotel and sent most of them packing and cancelled a bunch of flights. The chief pilot privately thanked me, believing his position might have been in jeopardy by initiating such a move.
This is the way of the industry right now and the only way to prevent these happenings is a strong cohesive union that sets it's own safety standards above the minimums required by law.
By our own contract, we can't be scheduled over twelve hours in a twenty-four, but we can elect to extend to fourteen. We purposely left the two hours to anticipate delays, so that the company could arrange a backup. Again, this is better than the FAR minimums, but it would not have been achieved without solidarity.
To answer your questions about the aims of the meeting, you need only look at the above areas of the thread to find out that it's a discussion about airspace, pure and simple.
It has no regulatory ties. It's purpose is merely to hear what various representatives have to say about what Australia needs to do in order to represent the highest levels of airspace safety.
You do not need to be defensive about ATC salaries. If the scales recently sent to me are representative of the true scales, I think that it's reprehensible that they should be so low, when management is making so much .
I worked with the pilot controller liaison for NATCO quite a lot back in the 90's...this may surprise you, but most controllers I deal with actually like me! I drink beer with them in Atlantic City all the time.
I completely understand where you stand on fatigue. When I was in New York we were flying scheduled reg's and we were all told, "legal to start, legal to finish".
We actually had a crew that had been on duty 19 hours during the blizzard of 1996, where they found themselves deiced twice before each take-off and nine hours behind schedule!
Simply put, we had to have a "safety day". Some crews were admitting to falling asleep on taxiways and others in flight. We found rooms at an airport hotel and sent most of them packing and cancelled a bunch of flights. The chief pilot privately thanked me, believing his position might have been in jeopardy by initiating such a move.
This is the way of the industry right now and the only way to prevent these happenings is a strong cohesive union that sets it's own safety standards above the minimums required by law.
By our own contract, we can't be scheduled over twelve hours in a twenty-four, but we can elect to extend to fourteen. We purposely left the two hours to anticipate delays, so that the company could arrange a backup. Again, this is better than the FAR minimums, but it would not have been achieved without solidarity.
To answer your questions about the aims of the meeting, you need only look at the above areas of the thread to find out that it's a discussion about airspace, pure and simple.
It has no regulatory ties. It's purpose is merely to hear what various representatives have to say about what Australia needs to do in order to represent the highest levels of airspace safety.
You do not need to be defensive about ATC salaries. If the scales recently sent to me are representative of the true scales, I think that it's reprehensible that they should be so low, when management is making so much .
I worked with the pilot controller liaison for NATCO quite a lot back in the 90's...this may surprise you, but most controllers I deal with actually like me! I drink beer with them in Atlantic City all the time.
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Chris Higgins
With respect we've been there done that.
I can only applaud your enthusiasm your motives remain "on trial" so to speak, but apart from "barking the cat up the tree" what is to be achieved apart form feeding some already large egos.
The public are already confused as hell, the professionals have already retaken the agenda from the zealots and are now working hard to contain the damage wrought.
It's about the professionals directly involved from Government and regulators talking to their professionalpeers in the industry and working it out together.
The Minister has wisely flicked it to where it always belonged, DOTARS and Airservices with some very specific directions.
DOTARS is chockfull of competent people.
I do not believe your meeting will reveal anything that is not comprehensively known by all, including who makes the most noise.
It has no regulatory ties. It's purpose is merely to hear what various representatives have to say about what Australia needs to do in order to represent the highest levels of airspace safety.
I can only applaud your enthusiasm your motives remain "on trial" so to speak, but apart from "barking the cat up the tree" what is to be achieved apart form feeding some already large egos.
The public are already confused as hell, the professionals have already retaken the agenda from the zealots and are now working hard to contain the damage wrought.
It's about the professionals directly involved from Government and regulators talking to their professionalpeers in the industry and working it out together.
The Minister has wisely flicked it to where it always belonged, DOTARS and Airservices with some very specific directions.
DOTARS is chockfull of competent people.
I do not believe your meeting will reveal anything that is not comprehensively known by all, including who makes the most noise.