QF seniority numbers
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QF seniority numbers
From now on, when the cadets finish their training they will be reserved a seniority number while they do their two years industry placement. This means when they start with QF on the same course as a direct entry applicant they'll already have about 2 years of seniority on them!!
This means when they finish training they'll be able to bid for what they want, won't ever see a blankline, and will be more senior than someone who joined 23 months before them!!
This is absurd, i'm still trying to work out how flying a metro or bras for airnorth or skippers can count as two years towards your seniority for an FO slot etc, when most GA people have done exactly this already.
This has already affected about 20 recently recruited SO's and will affect every SO recruited from now on.
Very ordinary.
This means when they finish training they'll be able to bid for what they want, won't ever see a blankline, and will be more senior than someone who joined 23 months before them!!
This is absurd, i'm still trying to work out how flying a metro or bras for airnorth or skippers can count as two years towards your seniority for an FO slot etc, when most GA people have done exactly this already.
This has already affected about 20 recently recruited SO's and will affect every SO recruited from now on.
Very ordinary.
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I know nothing of the process, but how does one get a cadetship? Should these direct entry people be applying for them themselves when they get to that 2-3 thousand hours level and are looking for a better twin job or is it just for newbies?
To play Devil's Advocate....
Irrespective of what you think of cadets, industry placement and experience is something that most of us have been calling for for some time - albeit for various reasons.
I can see the argument that these individuals "entry" into Qantas has been "delayed" by two years or whatever it takes to do their industry placement. Therefore there is an argument for giving them seniority numbers when their cadet course is complete not when they enter the airline.
I can also see that this will p%^s off a lot of people.
Irrespective of what you think of cadets, industry placement and experience is something that most of us have been calling for for some time - albeit for various reasons.
I can see the argument that these individuals "entry" into Qantas has been "delayed" by two years or whatever it takes to do their industry placement. Therefore there is an argument for giving them seniority numbers when their cadet course is complete not when they enter the airline.
I can also see that this will p%^s off a lot of people.
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I really can't see why they had to change from the old system where an applicant was assigned their seinority, based on the day they started, whether cadet or not.
This will annoy many future QF pilots.
This will annoy many future QF pilots.
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Wingnutt, are you the same bloke who has been whinging about Cadets since year dot?
If so, you have issues, and I would suggest you get over them. It may not be the fairest system in the world, but there are more important issues going in QF methinks.
Furthermore, why not keep your QF cadet issues internal rather than on a public forum.
If so, you have issues, and I would suggest you get over them. It may not be the fairest system in the world, but there are more important issues going in QF methinks.
Furthermore, why not keep your QF cadet issues internal rather than on a public forum.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
From a non(QF)-partisan point of view.
Welcome to LIFE, wingnutt - no-one ever said that it would be "fair", although most people try to live by a mutually acceptable set of guidelines that ensures harmonious living with their peers.
The seniority system that you are fortunate enough to have in place, but are complaining about, is the very SAME one that protects YOUR position, when someone with more experience than you joins.
It's the SAME (seniority) system that will, again, protect YOUR position, and keep you moving up the ladder, should you have a medical condition or accident that prevents you from doing any flying for a considerable period.
You say that you're still trying to work out
...whilst people who have been flying Metros or Bras with 4 and 5 times your experience, are still trying to work out why THEY have to slot in BEHIND you.
Wiser heads than your's have sat down and arrived at the structuring of the seniority you are blessed to have.
Protect it, because it sure as Hell will look after YOU!
Welcome to LIFE, wingnutt - no-one ever said that it would be "fair", although most people try to live by a mutually acceptable set of guidelines that ensures harmonious living with their peers.
The seniority system that you are fortunate enough to have in place, but are complaining about, is the very SAME one that protects YOUR position, when someone with more experience than you joins.
It's the SAME (seniority) system that will, again, protect YOUR position, and keep you moving up the ladder, should you have a medical condition or accident that prevents you from doing any flying for a considerable period.
You say that you're still trying to work out
how flying a metro or bras for airnorth or skippers can count as two years towards your seniority for an FO slot etc, when most GA people have done exactly this already.
Wiser heads than your's have sat down and arrived at the structuring of the seniority you are blessed to have.
Protect it, because it sure as Hell will look after YOU!
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Blueloo,
do a search if you like, i'm most definately not a cadet basher, infact some of my best mates are cadets and i myself tried for one, once upon a time, and would have done it in a flash.
This has no affect on me AT ALL! I am thinking of people joining in years to come and don't think it's very fair on them.
do a search if you like, i'm most definately not a cadet basher, infact some of my best mates are cadets and i myself tried for one, once upon a time, and would have done it in a flash.
This has no affect on me AT ALL! I am thinking of people joining in years to come and don't think it's very fair on them.
One reason I've heard, Wingnutt, is that these individuals are AIPA due-paying members from the day they start their employment (anyone confirm?)... Therefore, AIPA is looking after its current members before those yet to come. Fair enough.
Having said that, I reckon QF are, ironically, again erecting a barrier to pilot promotion for those who are employed with substantial experience for all the usual reasons and subsequently realise that IF they they the take first-available promotional opportunity they will only be later stacked on by those who were, up 'til that point, too inexperienced for the position.
Now, no-one will reject a job. There has always been someone willing to take the promotions and be junior (and reserve the right to complain about their early promotion too!). Maybe the current impetus for 'rostering rule' changes will alter the way some choose to progress their career. But I get concerned when some judge the choices of others (re promotion or otherwise) while defending the very system which allows/defends/drives the choices individuals make. To them I say, you can't have an each way bet....
And regardless of your take on things, you can still enjoy the job or move on to greener pastures as required.
Having said that, I reckon QF are, ironically, again erecting a barrier to pilot promotion for those who are employed with substantial experience for all the usual reasons and subsequently realise that IF they they the take first-available promotional opportunity they will only be later stacked on by those who were, up 'til that point, too inexperienced for the position.
Now, no-one will reject a job. There has always been someone willing to take the promotions and be junior (and reserve the right to complain about their early promotion too!). Maybe the current impetus for 'rostering rule' changes will alter the way some choose to progress their career. But I get concerned when some judge the choices of others (re promotion or otherwise) while defending the very system which allows/defends/drives the choices individuals make. To them I say, you can't have an each way bet....
And regardless of your take on things, you can still enjoy the job or move on to greener pastures as required.
Nunc est bibendum
Hang on a sec wingnutt. These guys and gals pass the QF selection, are offered a position as a QF 'cadet' three to six months later, pass that training 12-15 months later and then QF tells them to head off for a couple of years (whereas in the past they would have joined straight away!). And you think that them getting a number comensureate with them finishing their initial cadet training is unfair to people that perhaps haven't even applied to get in to QF yet?
It's happened before with an ex cadet who went to fly with the Army after QF said no eimployment for ages (hi Mel) who then joined QF at the end of her ROSO and was senior to me and I was the F/O on her Second Officer famil trip. She jumped about three hundred people (or more.) I was directly affected (being junior) and I still think it's a fair deal.
I can see partly where you're coming from but in the grand scheme of things, this one rates well down the list!
It's happened before with an ex cadet who went to fly with the Army after QF said no eimployment for ages (hi Mel) who then joined QF at the end of her ROSO and was senior to me and I was the F/O on her Second Officer famil trip. She jumped about three hundred people (or more.) I was directly affected (being junior) and I still think it's a fair deal.
I can see partly where you're coming from but in the grand scheme of things, this one rates well down the list!
Nunc est bibendum
Actually, I need to 'qualify' my previous statement a bit more. Mel didn't 'jump' 300 people in terms of seniorority. Her seniorority was where it always had been, just that her official start date was a couple of years behind the person one number senior and one number junior. I see a similar thing occurring here.
These guys and gals ordinarily would have been employed by QF at the end of their cadet course. The fact that QF says go and work elsewhere for a couple of years first (and tees up that work) shouldn't preclude them from having a seniorority number from the time when they would have normally started!
These guys and gals ordinarily would have been employed by QF at the end of their cadet course. The fact that QF says go and work elsewhere for a couple of years first (and tees up that work) shouldn't preclude them from having a seniorority number from the time when they would have normally started!
Last edited by Keg; 20th Jun 2004 at 03:01.
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Wingnut, you're right, it's not perfect... but the seniority system is a long way from perfect! This seems to be the most equitible way of assigning seniority - even though that might make things a bit more painful to those who start in Q before the cadets do. The cadets will have had a direct association with Qantas long before those that might actually get the contract before them. It's a shame they'll miss out on all those standbys!
I guess there may have also been problems with start date seniority if they didn't all start on the same day (ie if AirNorth couldn't replace them immediately, or if Qantas didn't want them all at once).
Lancer
I guess there may have also been problems with start date seniority if they didn't all start on the same day (ie if AirNorth couldn't replace them immediately, or if Qantas didn't want them all at once).
Lancer
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Keg and lancer, cheers i've taken it all on board.
I've no problem with them getting a seniority date when they finish their training and start with QF, so i guess this isn't any different.
Nutt
I've no problem with them getting a seniority date when they finish their training and start with QF, so i guess this isn't any different.
Nutt
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Come on its simple.... It creates a far better standard of pilot. Teaching an employee the right way from the beginning ensures a far better quality long term commander..... Just ask any of them!
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Z Force, if you wish to start a Cadet Bashing thread, why not search dunnunda and just open one of the hundreds of other cadet bashing threads already written. It saves the same people from having to write the same responses/replies over and over again.
If you didnt want to start a cadet bashing thread, why not search anyway, and you will no doubt find your answer amongst those posts.
As a third option, you could apply some common sense and think of a fair, balanced answer yourself.
If you didnt want to start a cadet bashing thread, why not search anyway, and you will no doubt find your answer amongst those posts.
As a third option, you could apply some common sense and think of a fair, balanced answer yourself.