QF seniority numbers
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Grrowler, you make a fair point. My humble apologies Z force.
I would like to ask this question then:
Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?
I would like to ask this question then:
Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?
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It was NOT a cadet bashing question. All I want to know is the proper policy as to why Qantas employ cadets? Can anybody supply a mature answer? Sorry if I chose my words incorrectly.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
blueloo asks, "Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?"
Because that has been the TRADITIONAL source for almost ALL airlines from the year dot.
Apparently Q also feel that G.A. exposure is beneficial to the development of their cadets - as opposed to keeping them completely with the airline system once recruited - by sending them "outside", as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Because that has been the TRADITIONAL source for almost ALL airlines from the year dot.
Apparently Q also feel that G.A. exposure is beneficial to the development of their cadets - as opposed to keeping them completely with the airline system once recruited - by sending them "outside", as mentioned earlier in this thread.
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Only hypothesising with no axe to grind so don't tear my head off please, but there are probably a couple of reasons Z Force.
They start young, so the Company is almost certain to get a long 'return of service' out of them for their training investment. Being younger they also learn more quickly than us old farts, are less likely to have families and huge mortgages, and so are more inclined to climb the promotional ladder quicker, thus giving the Company a ready supply of fodder for fleets such as the 767, etc. Also, the perception that the younger you start with a company the more likely you are to be a 'company man' (ie, loyalty, indoctrination & all that stuff) might come into play, though if management heard some of the things I've heard uttered by very senior cadets about some of their decisions they might be less inclined to believe that! Naturally it comes with disadvantages too, such as minimal experience levels which are eventually overcome, and large airline blinkers which might be more problematic.
The seniority system is not perfect, nor is the cadet scheme, or even pilot recruitment for that matter, but then how would you make it so?
I'm not pro or anti cadet (and am not a cadet myself). Just pointing out a few factors which might come into play.
They start young, so the Company is almost certain to get a long 'return of service' out of them for their training investment. Being younger they also learn more quickly than us old farts, are less likely to have families and huge mortgages, and so are more inclined to climb the promotional ladder quicker, thus giving the Company a ready supply of fodder for fleets such as the 767, etc. Also, the perception that the younger you start with a company the more likely you are to be a 'company man' (ie, loyalty, indoctrination & all that stuff) might come into play, though if management heard some of the things I've heard uttered by very senior cadets about some of their decisions they might be less inclined to believe that! Naturally it comes with disadvantages too, such as minimal experience levels which are eventually overcome, and large airline blinkers which might be more problematic.
The seniority system is not perfect, nor is the cadet scheme, or even pilot recruitment for that matter, but then how would you make it so?
I'm not pro or anti cadet (and am not a cadet myself). Just pointing out a few factors which might come into play.
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this is just tall poppies syndrome, a typical aussie trait. people who missed out or didnt qualify for a 'cadetship' feel hard down buy so they target a minority of people who worked hard and made the cut.
the cadets getting a senority number when they finish training before industry placement is an AIPA introduction. they feel that in the old system they would have started straight away and not done industry placement so therefore they are disadvantaged. i feel it is a good thing that industry placement is done as it increasing experience and preventing that'airline' blinker syndrome.
the senority scheme has been in place for years and there is always someone it helps and someone it disadvantages. and even those who are advantaged are disadvantage, because promotion can only be met when the required standards and hours are met so if senority.
so maybe some pilots should put there head down and bum up and work just as hard as the cadets have to get their positions, instead of targeting an easy group of people who dont chose any of these priveleges, just get to access them
the cadets getting a senority number when they finish training before industry placement is an AIPA introduction. they feel that in the old system they would have started straight away and not done industry placement so therefore they are disadvantaged. i feel it is a good thing that industry placement is done as it increasing experience and preventing that'airline' blinker syndrome.
the senority scheme has been in place for years and there is always someone it helps and someone it disadvantages. and even those who are advantaged are disadvantage, because promotion can only be met when the required standards and hours are met so if senority.
so maybe some pilots should put there head down and bum up and work just as hard as the cadets have to get their positions, instead of targeting an easy group of people who dont chose any of these priveleges, just get to access them
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NDB....... uuuum NDB....Perhaps while we are on the topic of Äussie traits"and the like, a small verse may be appropriate. It goes something like.
"Better to keep your mouth shut and for people to think you're a dummy than to open it and remove all doubt."
Sorry bucko but "Hard down buy" was way too much!
"Better to keep your mouth shut and for people to think you're a dummy than to open it and remove all doubt."
Sorry bucko but "Hard down buy" was way too much!
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i just edit my last post
doing more work is an unfair statement as many pilots are out there working very hard.
what was meant was that less time should be spent blaming cadets and whinging and maybe more time spent concentrating on getting in direct entry or going about what ever aviation busy we have.
and mr buzzy a few 'typos' doesnt make a difference, its the principle. its people like your self who attack the superfical instead of the fundamental principles behind it.
doing more work is an unfair statement as many pilots are out there working very hard.
what was meant was that less time should be spent blaming cadets and whinging and maybe more time spent concentrating on getting in direct entry or going about what ever aviation busy we have.
and mr buzzy a few 'typos' doesnt make a difference, its the principle. its people like your self who attack the superfical instead of the fundamental principles behind it.
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Well NDB without the risk of getting drawn into your little drama. Id like to say that those "superficial little typos" seem to make a big difference to those in recruiting who are judging suitable direct entry candidates.
blueloo,
Could be wrong, but I think I detect slightly sarcastic undertones.
I can see many advantages for QF hiring cadets, one problem I believe however, is a 19yo lack of life experience. While you can teach someone to fly a jet with no flying experience, you can't teach (I believe) people skills or decision making skills, for example, very successfully. It comes through experience.
Of course maybe I just wish I'd
I would like to ask this question then:
Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?
Can anyone explain the logic behind Qantas employing General Aviation Pilots?
I can see many advantages for QF hiring cadets, one problem I believe however, is a 19yo lack of life experience. While you can teach someone to fly a jet with no flying experience, you can't teach (I believe) people skills or decision making skills, for example, very successfully. It comes through experience.
Of course maybe I just wish I'd
put [my] head down and bum up and work[ed] just as hard as the cadets have to get their positions,
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Just a query, grrowler,
how do the air forces of the world get away with putting 19-year olds in the single seat of fast jets, as, under your hypothesis, they would be walking [well, flying?] disasters due to their lack of life experiences?
Of course, if the answer is strict selection, training and flying in a disciplined environment, then, presto, we have a cadet scheme followed by airline work!
Interesting??
G'day
how do the air forces of the world get away with putting 19-year olds in the single seat of fast jets, as, under your hypothesis, they would be walking [well, flying?] disasters due to their lack of life experiences?
Of course, if the answer is strict selection, training and flying in a disciplined environment, then, presto, we have a cadet scheme followed by airline work!
Interesting??
G'day
Very good point F#3,
Yes I agree training and flying in a disciplined environment is only beneficial in making a good product for the airline. However, I feel the difference is the airforces o' th' world take their new pilots to be away from their comfort zone (living at home with family and friends) and put them through officer training etc which is designed to develop those skills, this is long before they are let anywhere near a fast jet, if indeed they ever will be. As far as I know, QF has nothing along those lines at all.
I'm just saying I believe there are skills which are not taught/ developed in the cadet program which are available from outside groups (eg GA).
Yes I agree training and flying in a disciplined environment is only beneficial in making a good product for the airline. However, I feel the difference is the airforces o' th' world take their new pilots to be away from their comfort zone (living at home with family and friends) and put them through officer training etc which is designed to develop those skills, this is long before they are let anywhere near a fast jet, if indeed they ever will be. As far as I know, QF has nothing along those lines at all.
I'm just saying I believe there are skills which are not taught/ developed in the cadet program which are available from outside groups (eg GA).
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Hmmmm, NDB...I think I know what you are trying to say, perhaps not well said however
This is only a problem to some extent, one which QF obviously sees too. But the recruitment process, particularly the Psych Profile and interview stages are there to guage the candidates maturity, decision making potential and their potential to work in a team. These qualities also seen by QF in the Direct Entry Pilots they take too, mind you!! Indeed QF has instigated this new CIPP to enhance the cadets life experiences which may indeed be not as wide as many GA pilots; however not all cadets are straight out of school and too like GA pilots are all from different walks of like and many have worked other jobs to save up for flying.
Correct me if im wrong, but flying schools who teach the cadets are selected partly because they have live-in facilities and cadets are encouraged to move out of home???
Cadet intake into QF is only a very small percentage of the intake of pilots into the company...so let's put this to rest?? Some interesting points made guys, and sure no system is ever perfect really and will never keep everyone happy. Also at the end of the day, as much as us pilots don't want to look at it this way, QF is running an airline that is a business; need I say more.
one problem I believe however, is a 19yo lack of life experience. While you can teach someone to fly a jet with no flying experience, you can't teach (I believe) people skills or decision making skills, for example, very successfully
I feel the difference is the airforces o' th' world take their new pilots to be away from their comfort zone (living at home with family and friends)
.....
As far as I know, QF has nothing along those lines at all.
.....
As far as I know, QF has nothing along those lines at all.
Cadet intake into QF is only a very small percentage of the intake of pilots into the company...so let's put this to rest?? Some interesting points made guys, and sure no system is ever perfect really and will never keep everyone happy. Also at the end of the day, as much as us pilots don't want to look at it this way, QF is running an airline that is a business; need I say more.
CA,
I presume you've done the psych evaluation... do you honestly believe it successfully evaluates maturity and decision making skills
Secondly, living in fully serviced 5 star accomodation at these cadet schools hardly rates as leaving ones comfort zone.
Apart from that I fully agree with you, the airline is a business seeking to maximise it's profit.
I presume you've done the psych evaluation... do you honestly believe it successfully evaluates maturity and decision making skills
Secondly, living in fully serviced 5 star accomodation at these cadet schools hardly rates as leaving ones comfort zone.
Apart from that I fully agree with you, the airline is a business seeking to maximise it's profit.
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grrowler,
Yes I do believe it does, Psych testing is a very technical and evolved process. I do agree with you on the decision making skills side. However maturity is something that will show through in that testing, not myself being a Psych I can not elaborate on this side of things.
Psych testing should indeed be backed up by an interview, and its a shame that not all candidates can be interviewed, this comes down to time and money!
The testing has evolved over many years and it builds a profile of the applicant. I believe that this is then compared to what is seen as what makes a good pilot; presumably based on the profiles of those pilots past and present, senior in the company.
As with all things great pilots are for one reason or another looked over and then there are too those who slip through.
Cheers,
Yes I do believe it does, Psych testing is a very technical and evolved process. I do agree with you on the decision making skills side. However maturity is something that will show through in that testing, not myself being a Psych I can not elaborate on this side of things.
Psych testing should indeed be backed up by an interview, and its a shame that not all candidates can be interviewed, this comes down to time and money!
The testing has evolved over many years and it builds a profile of the applicant. I believe that this is then compared to what is seen as what makes a good pilot; presumably based on the profiles of those pilots past and present, senior in the company.
As with all things great pilots are for one reason or another looked over and then there are too those who slip through.
Cheers,
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While the topic meanders around......
Grrowler, with respect to the psych test, I can see what you're getting at, and I must confess to being a critic of psychologists in general (snake oil peddlers half of 'em are, I reckon, but you do get the odd good one). However from speaking to people 'in the know', and also to a couple of people who've actually seen their psych results, they say that the psych test in question (which is an industry standard) portrays an uncannily accurate picture of the candidate. It's not perfect, but it uses a lot of tricks (and a lot of questions) to weed out non-genuine answers.
All I can say in fact, was that it was so bloody long that by the half way mark I didn't feel like even thinking about which answer I should or shouldn't put down.
With respect to the industry placement scheme - it's about bloody time and it should've been done ages ago (yes, I know it was in the early years, but it's been in hiatus for quite a while & I don't know why they ever dumped it). I think it will help the end product immensely.
Grrowler, with respect to the psych test, I can see what you're getting at, and I must confess to being a critic of psychologists in general (snake oil peddlers half of 'em are, I reckon, but you do get the odd good one). However from speaking to people 'in the know', and also to a couple of people who've actually seen their psych results, they say that the psych test in question (which is an industry standard) portrays an uncannily accurate picture of the candidate. It's not perfect, but it uses a lot of tricks (and a lot of questions) to weed out non-genuine answers.
All I can say in fact, was that it was so bloody long that by the half way mark I didn't feel like even thinking about which answer I should or shouldn't put down.
With respect to the industry placement scheme - it's about bloody time and it should've been done ages ago (yes, I know it was in the early years, but it's been in hiatus for quite a while & I don't know why they ever dumped it). I think it will help the end product immensely.
Sydneyman - an interesting take on things - having an opinion on the QF testing without having the benefit of going through it is one thing, but to label it a joke is probably a bit much. I guess that Rex are a joke as well then? When I went to apply to them several years ago, they were charging $20 - for the privilege of me sending them my resume...?
Given that as a SO you can expect to be earning roughly 6 figures, what sort of quality of life are you desiring? Unless your idea of 'quality of life' is lines of Coke & Hookers every night, you can have a very nice lifestyle in Sydney on $100k. After all, how does everyone else living here on average wage (or below) manage to enjoy life?
That's an interesting take on the Honkers situation, especially in light of the events of the last couple of years.
Still, if you really couldn't stomach working for QF because it's so $hit hou$e, feel free - I'm sure there will be plenty of guys willing to take your place...
you need to become a captain to have an quality of life in sydney
Given that as a SO you can expect to be earning roughly 6 figures, what sort of quality of life are you desiring? Unless your idea of 'quality of life' is lines of Coke & Hookers every night, you can have a very nice lifestyle in Sydney on $100k. After all, how does everyone else living here on average wage (or below) manage to enjoy life?
first choice would be Cathay or somewhere that actually seem to treat staff like people, not numbers!
Still, if you really couldn't stomach working for QF because it's so $hit hou$e, feel free - I'm sure there will be plenty of guys willing to take your place...
Nunc est bibendum
Five star accommodation growler? Maybe it appears that way in the brochures, the reality is somewhat different. 
Personally I found the living at Parafield 'interesting' but I wouldn't call it a 'make or break' deal.
Personally I found the living at Parafield 'interesting' but I wouldn't call it a 'make or break' deal.