A question with questionable answers!
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A question with questionable answers!
Many of the posts and some of the threads on Dunnunda are critical of pilots who work for Virgin, Impulse, Jetstar and NJS, due to the belief that these people should have said no to the offer of a job flying an RPT jet around the country, so as to save the wages and conditions of the elite, or perceived elite, in Qantas and the former Ansett, some of whom it seems, believe that they are the ones entitled to perform this work.
I'd be interested to know how many of you who hold this belief, would reject an offer from Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin/NJS if you were still flogging around in the bush in a light twin with no chance of being employed by Qantas (or formerly Ansett)?
Qantas won't look at me. I don't have experience commensurate with age as I started flying late. I don't have HSC and don't want to go back to school to get it. I don't want to fly long haul but I do love my jet command.
I have accepted a job with one of the on the nose employers, with no regrets.
I'd be interested to know how many of you who hold this belief, would reject an offer from Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin/NJS if you were still flogging around in the bush in a light twin with no chance of being employed by Qantas (or formerly Ansett)?
Qantas won't look at me. I don't have experience commensurate with age as I started flying late. I don't have HSC and don't want to go back to school to get it. I don't want to fly long haul but I do love my jet command.
I have accepted a job with one of the on the nose employers, with no regrets.
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Dan: If you believe that you have done the right thing, and have nothing for which to reproach yourself, why the angst and the need to post? The fact that you have obtained a jet command, without the need for the educational quals demanded by the other RPT operators surely should be enough to give you confidence that you are up to the job, or am I missing something here?
Good on you, go for it!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
Good on you, go for it!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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Dan,
I do not know anyone if QF mainline who has a problem with anyone furthering thier careers. The vast majority of us have worked jobs that were lesser paid in order to gain experience, and understand what it is like to be stuck in some GA ****hole trying to get up and out. I don't believe that any of us would wish that on anyone else
What we do have a problem with is the Impulse pilots, offering unsolicited, to undercut mailine by 50% in order to secure the jetstar contract. This, in my and many other mainline pilots minds is tantamount to scabery, but probably does not meet the exact definition due to the fact that this action did not occur during an industrial dispute.
We also have a problem with Qantas itself carrying on like a pork chop over selection standards (which you note did not prevent you from becoming a Jet pilot - good luck to you) / 4 cyclics per year, 2 EP days and a whole lot of bull**** to become a captain when it is then prepared to sacrifice these standards (which are imposed by flight ops management - not AIPA or individual line pilots) just because someone offers to do the same job for less.
I have seen a document which identifys that somewhere in the region of 50% of the current Impulse pilots have previously been rejected by QF. Suddenly they are now acceptable because they are cheap.
Either there is a standard, or there is not. If there isnt, thats fine by me - but the hypocrisy and double standards of QF grates.
regards
FS
I do not know anyone if QF mainline who has a problem with anyone furthering thier careers. The vast majority of us have worked jobs that were lesser paid in order to gain experience, and understand what it is like to be stuck in some GA ****hole trying to get up and out. I don't believe that any of us would wish that on anyone else
What we do have a problem with is the Impulse pilots, offering unsolicited, to undercut mailine by 50% in order to secure the jetstar contract. This, in my and many other mainline pilots minds is tantamount to scabery, but probably does not meet the exact definition due to the fact that this action did not occur during an industrial dispute.
We also have a problem with Qantas itself carrying on like a pork chop over selection standards (which you note did not prevent you from becoming a Jet pilot - good luck to you) / 4 cyclics per year, 2 EP days and a whole lot of bull**** to become a captain when it is then prepared to sacrifice these standards (which are imposed by flight ops management - not AIPA or individual line pilots) just because someone offers to do the same job for less.
I have seen a document which identifys that somewhere in the region of 50% of the current Impulse pilots have previously been rejected by QF. Suddenly they are now acceptable because they are cheap.
Either there is a standard, or there is not. If there isnt, thats fine by me - but the hypocrisy and double standards of QF grates.
regards
FS
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Fartsock. A well thought out and un emotional post. I think that perhaps alot of the Mainline pilots angst should be directed towards your elected leaders. I would be asking why was the cold shoulder given with such vigor, to Impulse pilots, when the initial take over occured. Being left to " fend for themselves " didnt seem to worry to many mainliners at the time. As Dan pointed out, families dont care who employs you.
If union membership was allowed would the current situation exist? Most likely not.
To blame an individual is short sighted and just what the big man wants.
Cheers DM
If union membership was allowed would the current situation exist? Most likely not.
To blame an individual is short sighted and just what the big man wants.
Cheers DM
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So can I take it that Qantas mainline would support the Regionals if as reported, NJS start operating small jets over Qantas mainline/regional routes... left vacant by impulse or after the regionals grow a port to that which would support a small jet?
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Spin,
Yes I would support that - the decision for AIPA not to cover you guys was made by a president two removed in the past.
Remember though, the inability of you guys to access a progression path into Jetstar / Mainline is a policy of the airline, not the union or the line pilots.
We have been shown to be toothless on every other issue, unfortunately I do not believe regional pilot employment would be any different.
FS
Yes I would support that - the decision for AIPA not to cover you guys was made by a president two removed in the past.
Remember though, the inability of you guys to access a progression path into Jetstar / Mainline is a policy of the airline, not the union or the line pilots.
We have been shown to be toothless on every other issue, unfortunately I do not believe regional pilot employment would be any different.
FS
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Unfortunately, AIPA erred by not getting the Impulse pilots on board when Gerry McGowan got the colliwobbles and sold out to Qantas. Instead, AIPA was hoping the problem would go away.
This is a classic case of what goes around comes around. The sad thing is, the situation is rapidly heading for an impasse and the current pilot in fighting and name calling must have Dixon rubbing his hands together with glee.
Dan you did what any pilot (QF mainline pilots included) would do if faced with the same situation. It may be time for AIPA to start assessing the regional pilots position because I'll bet this will be Dixons next "recruiting pool".
This is a classic case of what goes around comes around. The sad thing is, the situation is rapidly heading for an impasse and the current pilot in fighting and name calling must have Dixon rubbing his hands together with glee.
Dan you did what any pilot (QF mainline pilots included) would do if faced with the same situation. It may be time for AIPA to start assessing the regional pilots position because I'll bet this will be Dixons next "recruiting pool".
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Dan,
I would guess that your post is directed towards the likes of me, because I seem to be one on the most vocal critics, particularly the Impulse guys.
A lot of my thoughts have already been sumarised nicely by FS. I have no problem with anyone on an individual level. Indeed, NJS have been around for longer than I have been flying, so I have no angst with them. The VB guys have well and truly improved their lot, so all due respect to them.
BUT Impulse. They come along, and offer themselves at a pathetically low rate. They make ABSOLUTELY ZERO attempt to improve their pay and conditions. ZERO. NAUGHT. NIL.
Let me say that I do not believe that they are taking away from me. I will eventually retire to the 744 never to be seen again. But other's in current and future generations will suffer from the apparent indifference of these people.
I refuse to accept that they could not have bargained for a better deal, because they did not even try. And this cannot be blamed on AIPA, Uncle Geoff or anyone else. Responsibility lies directly with these 140 odd pilots, and they must wear it.
A further point. What about the other QF Link pilots, many of whom have been toiling away for years. The Impulse guys come along, having been flying B1900's just four years ago, and "jump the que". Why are these Impulse guys any more entitled to this flying than other QF subsidiaries?
The whole situation simply sux.
I would guess that your post is directed towards the likes of me, because I seem to be one on the most vocal critics, particularly the Impulse guys.
A lot of my thoughts have already been sumarised nicely by FS. I have no problem with anyone on an individual level. Indeed, NJS have been around for longer than I have been flying, so I have no angst with them. The VB guys have well and truly improved their lot, so all due respect to them.
BUT Impulse. They come along, and offer themselves at a pathetically low rate. They make ABSOLUTELY ZERO attempt to improve their pay and conditions. ZERO. NAUGHT. NIL.
Let me say that I do not believe that they are taking away from me. I will eventually retire to the 744 never to be seen again. But other's in current and future generations will suffer from the apparent indifference of these people.
I refuse to accept that they could not have bargained for a better deal, because they did not even try. And this cannot be blamed on AIPA, Uncle Geoff or anyone else. Responsibility lies directly with these 140 odd pilots, and they must wear it.
A further point. What about the other QF Link pilots, many of whom have been toiling away for years. The Impulse guys come along, having been flying B1900's just four years ago, and "jump the que". Why are these Impulse guys any more entitled to this flying than other QF subsidiaries?
The whole situation simply sux.
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Oh, for Pharque's sake Pratlever, get a life.... You're letting this Impulse hatred take years off your life!
You've been arguing from the same subjective point of view ever since I can remember - you don't have all the facts (do I recall some past predictions as erroneous as they were bold?) and seem unwilling to even remotely consider that there could be another side to the story.
You claim "Absolutely Zero" attempt was made etc etc. Once again, you're only in posession of 'facts' that suit your pre-conceptions!
You are correct about the pay offer being 'no change' - but neglect to mention that it's for the remainder of this EBA's life only (15 months-ish). You also neglect a couple of other important considerations. The pay etc offer was made subject to the guarantee that the 30-odd redundant 1900 pilots were re-instated prior to hiring externally. Also, the offer was conditional on the current list not having to fork out $$'s for A320 endorsements. Do you imagine we won't be looking carefully at what happens over the next year, what promises are kept and which are ignored before negotiating on the next EBA?
Now from the bias of my perspective I saw some positives in all of this - sure I'd have loved more coin straight up, but I had to respect the IPC for making the redundant guys their first priority. Looking after your mates ahead of your own selfish interests is admirable, and something that AIPA could well learn from...
It's very easy (particularly from your perspective) to say the IPC should have held out for more, but who's to say a greenfields wasn't an option? You may not think so, but given the 'accuracy' of you oracle-like predictions in the past, would you have gambled your career on it? Honestly? That's what we were looking at, with some last minute 'offer' of AIPA 'support' to cling to...
Try to put aside your vitriol just for a moment and put yourself in our shoes, add a mortgage plus kids to the equation - what would you have done as an individual amongst 140 odd?
When you've finished that, try re-reading Dan's post - he's asking a question. Instead of flogging your hobby horse off into the sunset, try answering it.
PS It's in the 2nd paragraph, and ends in a '?'....
You've been arguing from the same subjective point of view ever since I can remember - you don't have all the facts (do I recall some past predictions as erroneous as they were bold?) and seem unwilling to even remotely consider that there could be another side to the story.
You claim "Absolutely Zero" attempt was made etc etc. Once again, you're only in posession of 'facts' that suit your pre-conceptions!
You are correct about the pay offer being 'no change' - but neglect to mention that it's for the remainder of this EBA's life only (15 months-ish). You also neglect a couple of other important considerations. The pay etc offer was made subject to the guarantee that the 30-odd redundant 1900 pilots were re-instated prior to hiring externally. Also, the offer was conditional on the current list not having to fork out $$'s for A320 endorsements. Do you imagine we won't be looking carefully at what happens over the next year, what promises are kept and which are ignored before negotiating on the next EBA?
Now from the bias of my perspective I saw some positives in all of this - sure I'd have loved more coin straight up, but I had to respect the IPC for making the redundant guys their first priority. Looking after your mates ahead of your own selfish interests is admirable, and something that AIPA could well learn from...
It's very easy (particularly from your perspective) to say the IPC should have held out for more, but who's to say a greenfields wasn't an option? You may not think so, but given the 'accuracy' of you oracle-like predictions in the past, would you have gambled your career on it? Honestly? That's what we were looking at, with some last minute 'offer' of AIPA 'support' to cling to...
Try to put aside your vitriol just for a moment and put yourself in our shoes, add a mortgage plus kids to the equation - what would you have done as an individual amongst 140 odd?
When you've finished that, try re-reading Dan's post - he's asking a question. Instead of flogging your hobby horse off into the sunset, try answering it.
PS It's in the 2nd paragraph, and ends in a '?'....
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Hello Fluffy. Nice reply. Good to see some intelligent debate, although you do accuse me of vitriol, then launch some of your own against me. Some would suggest hypocracy. But I won't.
This is the very fair question that Dan has posed, and my reply is this: Of course I would not reject such an offer. But the point is moot, because I'm not flogging around the bush in a light twin, and Fluffy, just remember, that you and your Impulse mates weren't either. So the question is irrelevant with regards to your argument.
The problem here is that ALL of the Impulse guys are looking at this from a very narrow perspective. They are ALL saying "well, what would you have done?" and "we had no choice".
Fair enough for a little while. But my questions are on a wider level, and Fluffy, you haven't answered this. Nor have your mates DM, LGR or adama.
The question is this; Have you as a group, weakend and undermined the pay and conditions of airline pilots in Australia?
(Edited to repair incorrect Quote brackets - not censored!
W)
I'd be interested to know how many of you who hold this belief, would reject an offer from Impulse/Jetstar/Virgin/NJS if you were still flogging around in the bush in a light twin with no chance of being employed by Qantas (or formerly Ansett)?
The problem here is that ALL of the Impulse guys are looking at this from a very narrow perspective. They are ALL saying "well, what would you have done?" and "we had no choice".
Fair enough for a little while. But my questions are on a wider level, and Fluffy, you haven't answered this. Nor have your mates DM, LGR or adama.
The question is this; Have you as a group, weakend and undermined the pay and conditions of airline pilots in Australia?
(Edited to repair incorrect Quote brackets - not censored!
W)
Last edited by Woomera; 27th Mar 2004 at 23:55.
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TheNightOwl
No angst at all.
Some curiosity but also an attempt to make the point that I think many people on the forum expect those not at the top of the pecking order to make a sacrifice that I don't believe they would make in similar circumstances.
Fartsock
I don't know what the Impulse pilots did or didn't offer. Couldn't their offer though be seen as an attempt to protect their positions in the absence of wider community assistance, rather than seen as undercutting QF by 50%?
Maybe 50% of Impuls pilots were rejected by QF. In reality that is no reflection on those same pilot's abilities. I know of one Impulse captain, who I had the pleasure of training at abinitio and commercial stages, years ago. In my opinion he was one of the most naturally gifted and professional pilots I encountered over several thousands of instructional hours.
I haven't seen him since the 80's but can't imagine that he wouldn't make an excellent QF pilot, which he is now by virtue of the Impulse buyout. The point is, his rejection simply shows the falbility of the selection process.
proplever
Directed not only at you but those who share your view against the poor cousins looking after their own interests.
You say my original question is moot because you are not bug smashing. But that is the whole point of the question. I'd bet that if you were bug smashing and QF rejected you, and the only offer of a jet position was on an Impulse 717, you'd jump at the chance.
Amos
Not an Impulse thread at all. It started out with a statement and a serious question, which most respondants have not answered.
No angst at all.
Some curiosity but also an attempt to make the point that I think many people on the forum expect those not at the top of the pecking order to make a sacrifice that I don't believe they would make in similar circumstances.
Fartsock
I don't know what the Impulse pilots did or didn't offer. Couldn't their offer though be seen as an attempt to protect their positions in the absence of wider community assistance, rather than seen as undercutting QF by 50%?
Maybe 50% of Impuls pilots were rejected by QF. In reality that is no reflection on those same pilot's abilities. I know of one Impulse captain, who I had the pleasure of training at abinitio and commercial stages, years ago. In my opinion he was one of the most naturally gifted and professional pilots I encountered over several thousands of instructional hours.
I haven't seen him since the 80's but can't imagine that he wouldn't make an excellent QF pilot, which he is now by virtue of the Impulse buyout. The point is, his rejection simply shows the falbility of the selection process.
proplever
Directed not only at you but those who share your view against the poor cousins looking after their own interests.
You say my original question is moot because you are not bug smashing. But that is the whole point of the question. I'd bet that if you were bug smashing and QF rejected you, and the only offer of a jet position was on an Impulse 717, you'd jump at the chance.
Amos
Not an Impulse thread at all. It started out with a statement and a serious question, which most respondants have not answered.
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I have seen a document which identifys that somewhere in the region of 50% of the current Impulse pilots have previously been rejected by QF. Suddenly they are now acceptable because they are cheap.
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Nice reply Fluffy Bunny Feet. As you pointed out. The IPC had the balls to look after the whole group. That is, actually giving a fat rats about the redundant guys. None have been left out or behind. Not too many concerns from the Regional mates when these guys found them selves out of work. Out of 33 pilots 1 was taken into Eastern. Of course progression is a big issue for the regional group now. I guess we are ok now there are jets on the VQ books. But then again that would be a cynical outlook.
As stated the current EBA has just over a year to run. After a couple of years, the pay rates will rise to more than 150K. For a skipper. It is my understanding that retention bonus might be paid as well.
Proplever, your arguments just seem to go around in circles. The endless whinging, whinning and vitriol only highlight your ignorance and lack of respect for anyone other than your group.
Despite your affirmations on this and other threads, you are not the moral gaurdian of Qf operations and there for do not have to have anything justifyed to you by Impulse guys. Thankfully, Impulse has a strong, straight shooting and team oriented pilot group. Yes thats right propy, our representitive body actually looks after our interests as a group. A good example for you to follow I think.
Cheereo DM
As stated the current EBA has just over a year to run. After a couple of years, the pay rates will rise to more than 150K. For a skipper. It is my understanding that retention bonus might be paid as well.
Proplever, your arguments just seem to go around in circles. The endless whinging, whinning and vitriol only highlight your ignorance and lack of respect for anyone other than your group.
Despite your affirmations on this and other threads, you are not the moral gaurdian of Qf operations and there for do not have to have anything justifyed to you by Impulse guys. Thankfully, Impulse has a strong, straight shooting and team oriented pilot group. Yes thats right propy, our representitive body actually looks after our interests as a group. A good example for you to follow I think.
Cheereo DM
Last edited by Douglas Mcdonnell; 27th Mar 2004 at 22:12.
Nunc est bibendum
Your last paragraph is an interesting one DM and I think part of what Proplever is getting at!
Yep, I've got no qualms that the IPC has looked after YOUR best interests (in the short term) but is somewhat short sighted. I'm sure that the AIPA exec of a few years ago felt that they too were looking after OUR best interests however a few years down the track we see how short sighted that thinking was.
This then is the issue. You guys have looked after yourselves in the short to medium term but may have weakened the issue for the longer term. In short, on a 'logic' level, you may have done EXACTLY what AIPA did when we excluded you guys a few years back. You looked out for your concerns without a view of the bigger (and longer term) picture! Time will tell on whether the Dash 8 guys (or insert other pilot group here) offer to fly the A340/777 on J* minus 5%.
Anyway, it's water under the bridge. Unity of purpose is what serves us all now. THAT is the important issue now and into the future.
Yep, I've got no qualms that the IPC has looked after YOUR best interests (in the short term) but is somewhat short sighted. I'm sure that the AIPA exec of a few years ago felt that they too were looking after OUR best interests however a few years down the track we see how short sighted that thinking was.
This then is the issue. You guys have looked after yourselves in the short to medium term but may have weakened the issue for the longer term. In short, on a 'logic' level, you may have done EXACTLY what AIPA did when we excluded you guys a few years back. You looked out for your concerns without a view of the bigger (and longer term) picture! Time will tell on whether the Dash 8 guys (or insert other pilot group here) offer to fly the A340/777 on J* minus 5%.
Anyway, it's water under the bridge. Unity of purpose is what serves us all now. THAT is the important issue now and into the future.
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Thanks Keg, that was exactly my point.
YOUR best interests, DM etc, have ruined EVERYONE ELSE'S best interests for the interminable future!
You have looked after yourselves, but what about everyone else? Not one impulse pilot has answered my question, which I have asked on a number of previous threads. That is:
And for ALL of the Impulse pilots? You people are lucky to have a job at all. If QF had simply drilled Impulse into the ground rather than buying them out from Gerry, then you would all be out of a job. Now you are all poncing around acting like you are entitled to Jetstar - as though it was yours all along? Jeez, give me a break. You were all flying B1900's just four short years ago.
And DM? Since you guys are so magnanimous, and the so called champion's of the underdog, what exactly have you done to help the other QF Link pilots? Answer = nothing. You have jumped in underneath them and selfishly looked after yourselves whilst collectively undermining the entire industry. If you can't get your mind around this very simple concept, then I just give up.
BTW Dan, I did answer your question in the affirmative in my previous reply. My reply however was more directed towards the IPG, because THOSE are the guys who are/were not getting around the countryside in light twins.
YOUR best interests, DM etc, have ruined EVERYONE ELSE'S best interests for the interminable future!
You have looked after yourselves, but what about everyone else? Not one impulse pilot has answered my question, which I have asked on a number of previous threads. That is:
Have you as a group, weakened and undermined the pay and conditions of airline pilots in Australia?
And DM? Since you guys are so magnanimous, and the so called champion's of the underdog, what exactly have you done to help the other QF Link pilots? Answer = nothing. You have jumped in underneath them and selfishly looked after yourselves whilst collectively undermining the entire industry. If you can't get your mind around this very simple concept, then I just give up.
BTW Dan, I did answer your question in the affirmative in my previous reply. My reply however was more directed towards the IPG, because THOSE are the guys who are/were not getting around the countryside in light twins.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
proplever, sounds to me as though you`re trying to pre-emptively blame the Impulse pilots for the shortcoming you obviously expect from the QF pilots, once this battle moves up a gear, and the squeeze is put on YOU.
As you have already stated, pl, the J* negotiations with the IPG is a done deal - so the question is, are YOU, proplever going to have the balls to stand up against QF management when YOUR turn (soon) comes, and STOP the rot?!
So the buck will stop with YOU, proplever.
You`ve indicated many times how strongly you feel about the erosion of conditions of Oz aviation.
Your time to put up, or shut up is closer than you think - or has it been your intent all along to try to shift the blame away from YOU?
Unless ALL of the QANTAS group pilots can unify in short time, you`ll continue to be taken apart brick-by-brick, imo.
As you have already stated, pl, the J* negotiations with the IPG is a done deal - so the question is, are YOU, proplever going to have the balls to stand up against QF management when YOUR turn (soon) comes, and STOP the rot?!
YOUR best interests, DM etc, have ruined EVERYONE ELSE'S best interests for the interminable future!
You`ve indicated many times how strongly you feel about the erosion of conditions of Oz aviation.
Your time to put up, or shut up is closer than you think - or has it been your intent all along to try to shift the blame away from YOU?
Unless ALL of the QANTAS group pilots can unify in short time, you`ll continue to be taken apart brick-by-brick, imo.
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Jeez, Kapt. Spare me the bizarre psychoanalysis. I am but a QF Short Haul pilot. On my own I yeild very little power. I don't for an instant believe that I will somehow be held accountable for the degeneration of Australian airline pilot pay and conditions.
Furthermore, I cannot for the life of me understand how you came up with that bullsh1t you just wrote. Are you drunk?
IMO, Kapt, you should be quiet, and go back to taking your pills. On the basis of that last post, maybe even up the dosage! 
Furthermore, I cannot for the life of me understand how you came up with that bullsh1t you just wrote. Are you drunk?
IMO, Kapt, you should be quiet, and go back to taking your pills. On the basis of that last post, maybe even up the dosage!
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Dan, Douglas etc,
The reasons you cite to justify pilots undercutting others to get the job, also apparently justifies the old adage of pilots working for free in entry-level GA.
Does wanting (or needing) a job for money, experience, or the sheer love of it, justify reducing the conditions of an entire industry? Pilots flying for next to nothing to satisfy their own interests is not healthy for anyone (including themselves) in the long term.
Having said that, if I were in the same position, I would probably have done the same thing... It's an unfortunate reality of life that people tend to look out for themselves in the near term and hope everything will sort itself in the long run. The other unfortunate reality is that in the long run the conditions (and the romance?) of the entire profession are significantly lessened.
The 'rot' that so many people refer to is clearly as much our fault as pilots (indeed, probably more our fault), as it is management's.
Will we ever be able to work as a team? Let's hope AIPA and the IPG, and even the AFAP (!!!) can get everyone in the SAME boat, rowing in the SAME direction.
Lancer
The reasons you cite to justify pilots undercutting others to get the job, also apparently justifies the old adage of pilots working for free in entry-level GA.
Does wanting (or needing) a job for money, experience, or the sheer love of it, justify reducing the conditions of an entire industry? Pilots flying for next to nothing to satisfy their own interests is not healthy for anyone (including themselves) in the long term.
Having said that, if I were in the same position, I would probably have done the same thing... It's an unfortunate reality of life that people tend to look out for themselves in the near term and hope everything will sort itself in the long run. The other unfortunate reality is that in the long run the conditions (and the romance?) of the entire profession are significantly lessened.
The 'rot' that so many people refer to is clearly as much our fault as pilots (indeed, probably more our fault), as it is management's.
Will we ever be able to work as a team? Let's hope AIPA and the IPG, and even the AFAP (!!!) can get everyone in the SAME boat, rowing in the SAME direction.
Lancer
Last edited by *Lancer*; 28th Mar 2004 at 12:26.