Australian Airlines exodus of pilots to Dragonair
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Australian Airlines exodus of pilots to Dragonair
Heard recently that 3 confirmed and possibly 3 more F/O's with AA based Cairns are leaving for Dragonair HK.
Normally you wouldnt bat an eyelid but if 6 go then that is a significant percentage of operating crew.
Add to that the cost to QF for promotional training once replacements have been given.........it all adds up.
Normally you wouldnt bat an eyelid but if 6 go then that is a significant percentage of operating crew.
Add to that the cost to QF for promotional training once replacements have been given.........it all adds up.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Add to that the cost to QF for promotional training once replacements have been given.........it all adds up.
But is fully tax deductible.
I've come to the conclusion, from my experience, that most airlines don't give a fig about "training costs".
At my present company we have calculated that the training costs of bringing a current pilot into the system is USD250k. This was confirmed as correct by the contracting agency.
Yet this company will bring - as an example - a B744 pilot on to the B737 for 3 years, and then send him onto the B777!!
This has been the system for the 5 years that I have been here, with the annual turnover around 12 (12 out - 12 in).
When someone figures out what accounting system airlines use they might like to post it here.
And yes, Dragonair have been busy recruiting and pay reasonably well, I've heard. They've even managed to attract Aussies from Silk Air and SQ.
The lack of $$'s in Oz (plus the possible, impending confrontation with QF's overpaid management) make employment as an expat. pilot a far more attractive proposition.
Australia's airlines are stepping stones - where inexperienced pilots can gain some airline jet time - before moving overseas to the REAL jobs, that will give you the financial capability of buying a house AND supporting a family!
But is fully tax deductible.
I've come to the conclusion, from my experience, that most airlines don't give a fig about "training costs".
At my present company we have calculated that the training costs of bringing a current pilot into the system is USD250k. This was confirmed as correct by the contracting agency.
Yet this company will bring - as an example - a B744 pilot on to the B737 for 3 years, and then send him onto the B777!!
This has been the system for the 5 years that I have been here, with the annual turnover around 12 (12 out - 12 in).
When someone figures out what accounting system airlines use they might like to post it here.
And yes, Dragonair have been busy recruiting and pay reasonably well, I've heard. They've even managed to attract Aussies from Silk Air and SQ.
The lack of $$'s in Oz (plus the possible, impending confrontation with QF's overpaid management) make employment as an expat. pilot a far more attractive proposition.
Australia's airlines are stepping stones - where inexperienced pilots can gain some airline jet time - before moving overseas to the REAL jobs, that will give you the financial capability of buying a house AND supporting a family!
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It adds to my feeling that we have seen the bottom of the cyclical trough as far as the availability of experienced airline pilots is concerned.
Expect to see more of this in the future as Asian LCC's compete for pilots and mainline airlines further recover from the setbacks of the last two years.
While it won't go all the way to ridding OZ of the systemic problems we face re pilot supply that have been discussed in other threads, it does offer some hope and should also strengthen the backbones of thosed faced with moves such as Jet*... A bit of resolve now will pay off in 12 months time...
Expect to see more of this in the future as Asian LCC's compete for pilots and mainline airlines further recover from the setbacks of the last two years.
While it won't go all the way to ridding OZ of the systemic problems we face re pilot supply that have been discussed in other threads, it does offer some hope and should also strengthen the backbones of thosed faced with moves such as Jet*... A bit of resolve now will pay off in 12 months time...
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Dragonair
Hey, would it be at all possible if someone could send me some info on dragon, requirements ect if you have some time.
Also a website might solve all of the above, cheers
splat
Also a website might solve all of the above, cheers
splat
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Kaptin M - correct about the cost of training but when you talk about "the real jobs" I beg to differ.
Have quite a few friends out there with CX on the old A scale, as well as EK/BA/SQ etc that would give their left nad to be working and flying from Australia.
Earning good money in these places is one thing, but the cost of living coupled with family being some 10 hours away or further can and does put a strain on some marriages.
Working tours has knobs on it also in the long run.
The money is good but at the end of the day lifestyle is important and in most cases paramount to happiness.
My down point here is that with the added expense of training (to QF in this case), then some dingbat bean-counter will suggest that pilots be directly recruited into Australian Airlines rather than go through the Qantas system.
Money is great to have Kap M but at the end of the day I suppose it depends on whether the wife and kids are happy!!
Have quite a few friends out there with CX on the old A scale, as well as EK/BA/SQ etc that would give their left nad to be working and flying from Australia.
Earning good money in these places is one thing, but the cost of living coupled with family being some 10 hours away or further can and does put a strain on some marriages.
Working tours has knobs on it also in the long run.
The money is good but at the end of the day lifestyle is important and in most cases paramount to happiness.
My down point here is that with the added expense of training (to QF in this case), then some dingbat bean-counter will suggest that pilots be directly recruited into Australian Airlines rather than go through the Qantas system.
Money is great to have Kap M but at the end of the day I suppose it depends on whether the wife and kids are happy!!
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Spot on Timeee.
There are plenty of Aussies working for airlines overseas who would trade in the apparent high pay to return home in an instant. Life-style has a high premium.
The other thing that you find out o/s is that there is quite often no way of enforcing your legal rights, consequently pay and conditions can be changed at management's whim.
If anyone needs evidence, have a look at what is being said about EK on the Middle East forums. (And EK used to be the Holy Grail.
There are plenty of Aussies working for airlines overseas who would trade in the apparent high pay to return home in an instant. Life-style has a high premium.
The other thing that you find out o/s is that there is quite often no way of enforcing your legal rights, consequently pay and conditions can be changed at management's whim.
If anyone needs evidence, have a look at what is being said about EK on the Middle East forums. (And EK used to be the Holy Grail.
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10 years overseas and you can have all the Ozzie lifestyle you want. Guys who go to EK and Dragon for 15 years will come home as multi-millionaires as they pay no rent and stuff all or no tax. If you rent your house out in Oz and invest the proceeds, you come home to a very tidy sum. Combine that with the Golden Handshake when you leave these carriers, plus your super money growing in Oz and anything that you save after beer and smokes... I know a guy at Dragon who has bought 2 houses in Oz after two years in Hong Kong. His plan is buy 1 house a year. (15 years, 15 houses..). I do miss the Oz lifestle and would have given anthing for an early morning surf when I woke up today, but you can create a great lifestle here as well.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"Life style" is something people with $$'s and free time think about - I'm not sure how many Aussie-employed pilots are in that position.
Possibly those who had worked o/s previously, but how many of the younger guys and girls who haven't are (in that position)?
You're possibly correct, REM, when you state, "There are plenty of Aussies working for airlines overseas who would trade in the apparent high pay to return home in an instant.", however it's more than likely that those Aussies have had the advantage of several years tax free salary, free accomodation (and utilities), and subsidised schooling for the brats, whilst renting out their home(s) in Oz.
The lifestyle THEY dream of is a far different one to that those working in Oz aspire to.
So in light of Scooter's opening post, my question is, are Australia's airlines setting themselves up as the bottom rung of Australian pilots' career ladder?
An entire working life as a pilot is not guaranteed - lifestyle might extend the Dollar days of those who will retire prematurely due to medical reasons - but it won't pay the bills.
I knew a guy (an F/O) in SQ who was doing the same thing as Ralph's mate.
Possibly those who had worked o/s previously, but how many of the younger guys and girls who haven't are (in that position)?
You're possibly correct, REM, when you state, "There are plenty of Aussies working for airlines overseas who would trade in the apparent high pay to return home in an instant.", however it's more than likely that those Aussies have had the advantage of several years tax free salary, free accomodation (and utilities), and subsidised schooling for the brats, whilst renting out their home(s) in Oz.
The lifestyle THEY dream of is a far different one to that those working in Oz aspire to.
So in light of Scooter's opening post, my question is, are Australia's airlines setting themselves up as the bottom rung of Australian pilots' career ladder?
An entire working life as a pilot is not guaranteed - lifestyle might extend the Dollar days of those who will retire prematurely due to medical reasons - but it won't pay the bills.
I knew a guy (an F/O) in SQ who was doing the same thing as Ralph's mate.
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Sorry to burst yu bubble bongman,but we do live in Aus,have 2 houses ( why you'd want 15 is beyond me ),the sun's shinin',the waters warm and I managed to get an early wave in this morning.Sure I don't get the dollars the boys are getting in HK ,but 'fraid you can't underestimate the value of a good lifestyle.
Have a good day where ever you maybe
Have a good day where ever you maybe
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What is it with everyone assuming people are in HK under duress?.......and that the lifestyle option means living in Oz?
CX do have bases in Oz.
I have a great lifestyle living on my boat, playing golf, skiing at Whistler, waterskiing and sometimes going back to Oz if I really have to.
Oh and when offered with a course date for QF I politely declined as I chose the lifestyle option, and kept my dreary spot in HK.
Its a big world out there and when I retire from work altogether ie 45yo, I won't be rushing back to Oz..........the South of France is more like it.
CX do have bases in Oz.
I have a great lifestyle living on my boat, playing golf, skiing at Whistler, waterskiing and sometimes going back to Oz if I really have to.
Oh and when offered with a course date for QF I politely declined as I chose the lifestyle option, and kept my dreary spot in HK.
Its a big world out there and when I retire from work altogether ie 45yo, I won't be rushing back to Oz..........the South of France is more like it.
1 + 1/2 Nad for a job at EK/CX, etc.
I'm tired of hearing about the "great Aussie lifestyle". A resounding BS!!
How do you survive in any Aussie cap city on the salaries now proposed in the LCC regime, with family in tow?
Talk to the Virgin blokes about how much time they spend with their families in a week. Talk to the Regional drivers about how much spare dollars are left for a night out after working a month, or getting their garbo neighbour, who owns his home, to believe their payslip and why they can only afford to rent.
The great Aussie (aviation) lifestyle - what a croc ....
I'd give both nads and half the old fella for a job in some of these tax-free havens just for a little while - so I could catch up with the rest of the professional society.
How do you survive in any Aussie cap city on the salaries now proposed in the LCC regime, with family in tow?
Talk to the Virgin blokes about how much time they spend with their families in a week. Talk to the Regional drivers about how much spare dollars are left for a night out after working a month, or getting their garbo neighbour, who owns his home, to believe their payslip and why they can only afford to rent.
The great Aussie (aviation) lifestyle - what a croc ....
I'd give both nads and half the old fella for a job in some of these tax-free havens just for a little while - so I could catch up with the rest of the professional society.
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lifestyle in oz
yeh i get that 10 days strait in a month every month an then another 30 days a/l on top
an i put $15k in me pocket every month
work in australia? you jokin or wot!
yeh i get that 10 days strait in a month every month an then another 30 days a/l on top
an i put $15k in me pocket every month
work in australia? you jokin or wot!
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Interesting topic, I think the Aus government are currently running a senate inquirey into why so many young Australians are moving off shore. Maybe a good hard look at the tax system might be a good starting point.
wouldnt want to give all the facts here would we.
I know 2 of the 3 in question applied to Dragonair years ago before AO even existed; caught up in the worldwide slowdown. I dont know when the 3rd applied.
One of them has stated that if he wasnt offered a job he wouldnt have minded so much as he was quite happy at AO. He was actually quite sad at leaving. One of the other is going because it suits his family situation to be based in Hong Kong.
Kaptin M, you regularly make the mistake of speaking for everybody with your wonderful wisdom. I am quite happy living in OZ earning the money I do. I have had my time overseas and dont wish to do it again. I have a REAL job; can buy a house and support my family. I am paid significantly more money in an Aussy airline that I was in the RAAF and working a whole lot less.
Each to their own; there are a thousand different reasons that people do the things they do. Its not always money!
I know 2 of the 3 in question applied to Dragonair years ago before AO even existed; caught up in the worldwide slowdown. I dont know when the 3rd applied.
One of them has stated that if he wasnt offered a job he wouldnt have minded so much as he was quite happy at AO. He was actually quite sad at leaving. One of the other is going because it suits his family situation to be based in Hong Kong.
Kaptin M, you regularly make the mistake of speaking for everybody with your wonderful wisdom. I am quite happy living in OZ earning the money I do. I have had my time overseas and dont wish to do it again. I have a REAL job; can buy a house and support my family. I am paid significantly more money in an Aussy airline that I was in the RAAF and working a whole lot less.
Each to their own; there are a thousand different reasons that people do the things they do. Its not always money!
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It didn't take long for the young lads to realise how small a town Cairns really is. Are the FO's concerned some of the younger guys who were well down on the seniority list who received accelaretd training to take FO slots with Australian when the alternative was to remain at Qantas as SO's for much longer before promtion to FO? Nothing quite like ambition, and shows what smart and careful thinking can do.
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Apologies to the Messiah.(He's not the real Messiah... he's just a very naughty boy!! )
I didn"t intend to infer that our mates in Honkers or the desert were there under duress.I have probably more mates in those airlines than I do here. The last sentence said it all.. wherever you are , for whatever reason,under whatever circumstance, just chill and enjoy it. Just like I keep telling my kids , you only live once and your maggot ****e for a hell of a lot longer so don't waste what you've got and don't fret for what you have'nt.
Have a good one.
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I didn"t intend to infer that our mates in Honkers or the desert were there under duress.I have probably more mates in those airlines than I do here. The last sentence said it all.. wherever you are , for whatever reason,under whatever circumstance, just chill and enjoy it. Just like I keep telling my kids , you only live once and your maggot ****e for a hell of a lot longer so don't waste what you've got and don't fret for what you have'nt.
Have a good one.
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Don, I know one of the guys is an ex-AN 767 FO. Can't speak for the other two but this guy would have been an FO till the cows come home in QF mainline due to a very low seniority number.
So people, what is the "Aust dollar value", of working/Living in Oz/NZ. It would have to be worth more than 100 grand extra,IN THE POCKET, for me to live in Hongkers or some Arab state.And I guess here lies the problem.......The financial sacrifices one makes to live here in Oz, because ,despite what some have to say, tis a great place to live!!!!! 