New move for Jestar pilots
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Quite correct blue. However information on other threads seems to suggest that these guys put forward their proposal to management first, not the other way around.
The concept of "market forces"? Since when do market forces require a new group of pilots to carry out the same flying at half the pay? This is nonsense. Reduced pay maybe, perhaps something akin to Virgin. But sinking to this level is pure stupidity.
They have taken a giant dump in our collective nest. And there are those out there wondering why QF pilots are so annoyed at them.
The concept of "market forces"? Since when do market forces require a new group of pilots to carry out the same flying at half the pay? This is nonsense. Reduced pay maybe, perhaps something akin to Virgin. But sinking to this level is pure stupidity.
They have taken a giant dump in our collective nest. And there are those out there wondering why QF pilots are so annoyed at them.
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I guess the 717 boys wanted to offer a deal that Q couldn't resist, thus ensuring their continued existence. Seems to have worked. They will no doubt be looking to increase the salaries in time.
The flyboys from Oz just keep doin it to each other,eh.
Am I right in saying that the baggage snatchers at Jetstar will be non union and paid lower salaries to reflect that, as with Virgin?
The flyboys from Oz just keep doin it to each other,eh.
Am I right in saying that the baggage snatchers at Jetstar will be non union and paid lower salaries to reflect that, as with Virgin?
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The 717 boys might've wanted to offer a deal that Q couldn't resist, but sh!t, there's over a hundred of them, that has to count for some industrial muscle. At least try and get a better deal.
The old GA mentality wins out. Still..... AIPA got them a pretty good deal, pity about it's own financial members.
The old GA mentality wins out. Still..... AIPA got them a pretty good deal, pity about it's own financial members.
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Keg,
While .1 of a cent per ASK may appear a minor saving it depends on your baseline.
QF Profit Before Tax from the 2002/3 Annual Report of A$502m is only .5 of a cent per ASK averaged across the business.
.1 of a cent represents a 20% change in profit. Bottom line impact is the focus.
While .1 of a cent per ASK may appear a minor saving it depends on your baseline.
QF Profit Before Tax from the 2002/3 Annual Report of A$502m is only .5 of a cent per ASK averaged across the business.
.1 of a cent represents a 20% change in profit. Bottom line impact is the focus.
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Well the last week has been interesting to say the least.
It would appear the level the Impulse pilot body is prepared to stoop to literally knows no bounds.
The A340-500 purchase has been recommended to the board by all the relevant departments of QF. As part of these considerations, the aircraft will be operated by the Impulse pilot group on roughly 50% of what current 747 classic pilots are paid.
This offer was made to Qantas via Oldmeadow consulting. I understand that a dinner was held during the week at a CBD restaraunt between Oldmeadow and senior members of the IPG to thrash out in principle agreements.
All this going on whilst the IPG is in the AIPA office at Mascot working towards 'a joint position' (from the AIPA friday update) to take to QF over Jetstar.
And for those of you that doubt the quality of this information, or who continue to stick your heads in the sand consider the fact that there is no guarantee, anywhere in the applicable short haul of long haul awards that guarantee mainline pilots will fly a new type.
I am astonished that the Impulse pilots have escaped serious centure, both on this forum and on Qrewroom.
They are a disgrace.
FS
It would appear the level the Impulse pilot body is prepared to stoop to literally knows no bounds.
The A340-500 purchase has been recommended to the board by all the relevant departments of QF. As part of these considerations, the aircraft will be operated by the Impulse pilot group on roughly 50% of what current 747 classic pilots are paid.
This offer was made to Qantas via Oldmeadow consulting. I understand that a dinner was held during the week at a CBD restaraunt between Oldmeadow and senior members of the IPG to thrash out in principle agreements.
All this going on whilst the IPG is in the AIPA office at Mascot working towards 'a joint position' (from the AIPA friday update) to take to QF over Jetstar.
And for those of you that doubt the quality of this information, or who continue to stick your heads in the sand consider the fact that there is no guarantee, anywhere in the applicable short haul of long haul awards that guarantee mainline pilots will fly a new type.
I am astonished that the Impulse pilots have escaped serious centure, both on this forum and on Qrewroom.
They are a disgrace.
FS
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With the benefit of hindsight, I wonder if there’s not the odd QF mainline pilot out there today who now believes that the stoush the domestic pilots got themselves involved in back in 198you-know-when might actually have been their fight too?
It’s been said before by others far more erudite than me: if you blokes – QF mainline and every other airline pilot in Australia - don’t get yourselves quick smart into one, united union, go out and buy yourselves a pair of bib and brace overalls, a striped baseball cap and an oil can and learn how to whistle ‘Casey Jones’.
It’s not too late, but if you keep up this idiotic bullsh*t that you’re somehow a superior being just because you’re a QF mainline driver, it very soon will be.
It’s been said before by others far more erudite than me: if you blokes – QF mainline and every other airline pilot in Australia - don’t get yourselves quick smart into one, united union, go out and buy yourselves a pair of bib and brace overalls, a striped baseball cap and an oil can and learn how to whistle ‘Casey Jones’.
It’s not too late, but if you keep up this idiotic bullsh*t that you’re somehow a superior being just because you’re a QF mainline driver, it very soon will be.
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Yeh!...I gotta agree with Spad on this one.
I like what Fartsock has to say, but I think he's away with the pixies...
and Keg, ol' buddie, do you get sore sitting on that fence?
I like what Fartsock has to say, but I think he's away with the pixies...
and Keg, ol' buddie, do you get sore sitting on that fence?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Let me put a proposition to you, fs, as Oldmeadow might well do.
What would be the response from the QF pilots if QANTAS were to tell you that you could have ALL of the J* flying if you accepted it on the same terms as the Impulse guys have?
In other words, the Impulse pilots go when the 717 goes.
Now if the QF pilots agreed to that would THEY be thought of in the same light as some of you QANTAS guys think of the Impulse pilots?
Don't some of you get it YET?!
Because the IPG are not a part of AIPA, the company is using one group as a lever against the other.
UNITED you'll stand and have some strength - DIVIDED not only is Oldmeadow & Co ripping you BOTH apart from the outside, but some of you are doing a pretty bl00dy good job from within, on YOURSELVES!!
What would be the response from the QF pilots if QANTAS were to tell you that you could have ALL of the J* flying if you accepted it on the same terms as the Impulse guys have?
In other words, the Impulse pilots go when the 717 goes.
Now if the QF pilots agreed to that would THEY be thought of in the same light as some of you QANTAS guys think of the Impulse pilots?
Don't some of you get it YET?!
Because the IPG are not a part of AIPA, the company is using one group as a lever against the other.
UNITED you'll stand and have some strength - DIVIDED not only is Oldmeadow & Co ripping you BOTH apart from the outside, but some of you are doing a pretty bl00dy good job from within, on YOURSELVES!!
Nunc est bibendum
Grow up Spad, Amos!
Spad, amos, thanks once again (and again, and again) for the history lesson. I'm sorry that I was just 18 years old at the time and couldn't do more about it than keep learning to fly. You've made the point now, you've made it before. I don't care whether or not what AIPA did back then was right or not, I'm just concerned that whether or not we have learned all we can from '89 and we can now get on with the real job of dealing with the future- rather than being stuck a decade and a half in the past. You really need to get off the high horse and let go! Just goes to show that post traumatic stress disorder isn't just for combat operators. Also applies to people who can't learn the lessons and then learn to move on to ensure that they're not repeated! 
As for the fence amos, which would that be. You agree with Spad and yet conveniently miss the point that it is the EXACT stand that I'm advocating and have been advocating for a good while now. A united, focussed, determined and resolute pilots association that represents all pilots from all segments of the Qantas group. Once that is done, it'd be nice to go with ALL pilots from ALL airlines! It ain't impossible either but it sure as heck isn't going to happen with if we continue to focus on 'woe is us, we should have joined the AFAP in the '89 dispute!'
So, maybe I'm having a slow night but I'm not sure which fence it is that you're referring to!?! Perhaps your desire to once again attempt to sink the boot into QF drivers in retribution for leaving you guys to your own devices in '89 is causing you to not actually read posts correctly or put them into the correct context. Believe me, I KNOW which side of the fence I'm on. I've never sat on the fence before on any issue and so I'm not going to start now!
(Edited for spelling and to try and ensure that people like 410 (see the next post) get the message correctly first time around!)
As for the fence amos, which would that be. You agree with Spad and yet conveniently miss the point that it is the EXACT stand that I'm advocating and have been advocating for a good while now. A united, focussed, determined and resolute pilots association that represents all pilots from all segments of the Qantas group. Once that is done, it'd be nice to go with ALL pilots from ALL airlines! It ain't impossible either but it sure as heck isn't going to happen with if we continue to focus on 'woe is us, we should have joined the AFAP in the '89 dispute!'
So, maybe I'm having a slow night but I'm not sure which fence it is that you're referring to!?! Perhaps your desire to once again attempt to sink the boot into QF drivers in retribution for leaving you guys to your own devices in '89 is causing you to not actually read posts correctly or put them into the correct context. Believe me, I KNOW which side of the fence I'm on. I've never sat on the fence before on any issue and so I'm not going to start now!
(Edited for spelling and to try and ensure that people like 410 (see the next post) get the message correctly first time around!)
Last edited by Keg; 12th Mar 2004 at 22:29.
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I’ve looked at all the threads on this subject over the last week or two and have been constantly amazed at how short-sighted (or should that read blind-sighted?) the few QF mainline respondents have been when someone outside their ranks dares to makes a suggestion that AIPA might not be the way to go for the future.
That boldface was for you, ‘Keg’, as you, like so many QF pilots, seem to go off on a tangent about ‘forget the long ago past’ whenever 89 is mentioned. ‘Spad’ and (I think it was) ‘Wiley’, on an earlier thread has said what the proverbial Blind Freddie can see – you guys REALLY need to remove the blinkers and drop with all possible haste this crazy notion that a company union will protect your fast eroding position. You and every other pilot employed by an airline – any airline – within Australia need to form a united front industrially against an increasingly confrontationalist management who seem to have a long term plan to reduce your status - and remuneration - to that of (un)glorified bus drivers.
I’m not a Qantas pilot, but if it makes my opinion any more acceptable to you QF people, I was offered employment in QF mainline way back in 1979. There have been times, (particularly exactly ten years after that date!), when I bitterly regretted knocking back the QF offer. I mention this only because it seems to me that, incredibly, there seem to be pilots within Qantas who appear to look down on fellow aviators who have not been accepted into the Qantas ranks.
‘Wiley’ made the excellent analogy (and was promptly shot down in flames for making it) of the pre-war RAF accepting their perhaps not quite so polished wartime colleagues into their ranks when there was no other option. Had the ‘superior’ (in their own opinion) pre-war RAF pilots decided they would not accept the ‘riff raff’ wartime-trained pilots, everyone would have lost everything, just as you QF pilots seem doomed to do. (And isn’t amazing how many of those wartime-trained ‘riff raff’ pilots ended up as the stars and aces of the RAF as the war progressed? I think that given the chance, the years would show that the same might apply with many of the Impulse and Qantaslink pilots, but that’s just an opinion I don’t need to explore here.)
The point everyone seemed to miss in ‘Wiley’s’ analogy was that the quickly trained wartime pilots had to make the grade or they died. The analogy can be stretched to the current situation within QF. Accept that the Qantaslink and Impulse pilots are a fact of life – (they are) – and that they are now within your ranks. Those (I think very few, but I know some will disagree) that really are below standard will be weeded out in the QF training/checking process just as the wartime RAF pilots were weeded out by a far harsher and absolute ‘check and training’ process that came literally out of the barrel of a gun.
Gentlemen, I no longer work within Australian Aviation, but I certainly retain an interest in it and its future. You all simply must convince yourselves to look past petty – and even major – squabbles within your ranks and get yourselves into one, united association to protect an industry that is being all too quickly ruined by fly-by-night blow-ins in management who can’t see beyond the next quarterly profit statement. And by ‘all’, I mean ‘all pilots’ and not just those within Qantas and its offshoots. Before 1982, Qantas pilots were the leading force within the AFAP and therefore with all Australian pilots, both airline and GA. They need to re-establish themselves in that position in whatever you all choose to call the one, united union all Australian pilots simply must form and support right *** now.
Don’t fall into the trap of reminding us old codgers that ‘you were only 18 in 1989’ or some such throwaway line. Accept or don’t accept that mistakes were made in 1982 and 1989. Look to the future, but for God’s sake, don’t ignore the mistakes of history. You can be damned sure Management aren’t.
That boldface was for you, ‘Keg’, as you, like so many QF pilots, seem to go off on a tangent about ‘forget the long ago past’ whenever 89 is mentioned. ‘Spad’ and (I think it was) ‘Wiley’, on an earlier thread has said what the proverbial Blind Freddie can see – you guys REALLY need to remove the blinkers and drop with all possible haste this crazy notion that a company union will protect your fast eroding position. You and every other pilot employed by an airline – any airline – within Australia need to form a united front industrially against an increasingly confrontationalist management who seem to have a long term plan to reduce your status - and remuneration - to that of (un)glorified bus drivers.
I’m not a Qantas pilot, but if it makes my opinion any more acceptable to you QF people, I was offered employment in QF mainline way back in 1979. There have been times, (particularly exactly ten years after that date!), when I bitterly regretted knocking back the QF offer. I mention this only because it seems to me that, incredibly, there seem to be pilots within Qantas who appear to look down on fellow aviators who have not been accepted into the Qantas ranks.
‘Wiley’ made the excellent analogy (and was promptly shot down in flames for making it) of the pre-war RAF accepting their perhaps not quite so polished wartime colleagues into their ranks when there was no other option. Had the ‘superior’ (in their own opinion) pre-war RAF pilots decided they would not accept the ‘riff raff’ wartime-trained pilots, everyone would have lost everything, just as you QF pilots seem doomed to do. (And isn’t amazing how many of those wartime-trained ‘riff raff’ pilots ended up as the stars and aces of the RAF as the war progressed? I think that given the chance, the years would show that the same might apply with many of the Impulse and Qantaslink pilots, but that’s just an opinion I don’t need to explore here.)
The point everyone seemed to miss in ‘Wiley’s’ analogy was that the quickly trained wartime pilots had to make the grade or they died. The analogy can be stretched to the current situation within QF. Accept that the Qantaslink and Impulse pilots are a fact of life – (they are) – and that they are now within your ranks. Those (I think very few, but I know some will disagree) that really are below standard will be weeded out in the QF training/checking process just as the wartime RAF pilots were weeded out by a far harsher and absolute ‘check and training’ process that came literally out of the barrel of a gun.
Gentlemen, I no longer work within Australian Aviation, but I certainly retain an interest in it and its future. You all simply must convince yourselves to look past petty – and even major – squabbles within your ranks and get yourselves into one, united association to protect an industry that is being all too quickly ruined by fly-by-night blow-ins in management who can’t see beyond the next quarterly profit statement. And by ‘all’, I mean ‘all pilots’ and not just those within Qantas and its offshoots. Before 1982, Qantas pilots were the leading force within the AFAP and therefore with all Australian pilots, both airline and GA. They need to re-establish themselves in that position in whatever you all choose to call the one, united union all Australian pilots simply must form and support right *** now.
Don’t fall into the trap of reminding us old codgers that ‘you were only 18 in 1989’ or some such throwaway line. Accept or don’t accept that mistakes were made in 1982 and 1989. Look to the future, but for God’s sake, don’t ignore the mistakes of history. You can be damned sure Management aren’t.
Nunc est bibendum
Geez 410, you're the second person that's taken a shot at me and then gone on to make an identical point to the one that I've been making for about the last five months!
Foir the avoidance of doubt, I DO want AIPA and Aussie pilots to learn from the events of '89. I DO want to present a unified, robust adn determined front to a management that would reduce us to nothing. I DO want to ensure that we're well informed and unblinkered.
That said, I am sick of people telling me what morons AIPA were back in '89. That may or may not have been the case however I'm not going to waste time beating myself up over decisions that I wasn't a part of or had no influence on. The ONLY time I want to be spending on '89 is to learn from it. Amos and Spad go on and on and on all the time about how AIPA should have done things differently in '89. Well, it's water a decade and a half under the bridge now. About 1100 current Qantas pilots out of the 2300 in weren't in Qantas (or Australian) at the time of the dispute. We won't forget the lessons of the dispute but we won't be wringing our hands and saying 'if only we had done things differently over the last 2-20 years then things would now be OK! THAT is the point I make to Spad and Amos (and now you).
I've been pretty vocal on PPRUNE about the direction that I think AIPA should be taken and so far my feeling is that our Pres at least is working in that direction (although I'm not sure about various members of the COM (and rank and file as well) who are undermining him). Fire away if you will. Call me blinkered if you like but I'll say again that the ONLY way to stop the rot is with a united, robust, resolute bunch of pilots backing up their association!
Is that clear enough yet?
Foir the avoidance of doubt, I DO want AIPA and Aussie pilots to learn from the events of '89. I DO want to present a unified, robust adn determined front to a management that would reduce us to nothing. I DO want to ensure that we're well informed and unblinkered.
That said, I am sick of people telling me what morons AIPA were back in '89. That may or may not have been the case however I'm not going to waste time beating myself up over decisions that I wasn't a part of or had no influence on. The ONLY time I want to be spending on '89 is to learn from it. Amos and Spad go on and on and on all the time about how AIPA should have done things differently in '89. Well, it's water a decade and a half under the bridge now. About 1100 current Qantas pilots out of the 2300 in weren't in Qantas (or Australian) at the time of the dispute. We won't forget the lessons of the dispute but we won't be wringing our hands and saying 'if only we had done things differently over the last 2-20 years then things would now be OK!
THAT is the point I make to Spad and Amos (and now you).I've been pretty vocal on PPRUNE about the direction that I think AIPA should be taken and so far my feeling is that our Pres at least is working in that direction (although I'm not sure about various members of the COM (and rank and file as well) who are undermining him). Fire away if you will. Call me blinkered if you like but I'll say again that the ONLY way to stop the rot is with a united, robust, resolute bunch of pilots backing up their association!
Is that clear enough yet?
All your posts have been clear to me Keg, I would suggest that there are those who CANNOT/WILL NOT look outside there own blinkered view of the world(89).Or its all a s**t stir...Frankly, 89 has become passe, and alot that is said on these forums are windups by some extremely verbose characters.
