Qantas FO's and SO's-Jetstar
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Am curious about the situation at Virgin which lowered the bar in this country in the first place and set the benchmark for QF.
Is it not some of the 89 ers themselves that accepted the conditions at Virgin. Given that these guys will probably be out of the game within 10 years have they not some responsibility for the current situation.
Is it not some of the 89 ers themselves that accepted the conditions at Virgin. Given that these guys will probably be out of the game within 10 years have they not some responsibility for the current situation.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Divide and conquer
"United we stand, divided we fall" - I'll bet Oldmeadow has this wallpapering his office, and the song piped through the speakers day and night.
As unpalatable as it might seem to some on both sides, until the 2 pilot groups {QANTAS & QANTAS Lite) unite and start working together towards one common goal, then QF HRD are going to screw ALL of you - mercilessly.
"United we stand, divided we fall" - I'll bet Oldmeadow has this wallpapering his office, and the song piped through the speakers day and night.
As unpalatable as it might seem to some on both sides, until the 2 pilot groups {QANTAS & QANTAS Lite) unite and start working together towards one common goal, then QF HRD are going to screw ALL of you - mercilessly.
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Proplever & Pete Conrad: A Story of two men and one Unattainable Dream
Poor old prop & Pete, trying to come to terms with the fact that the games up. Too late in the day now chums. Missed out on QF, VQ and now DJ........ NO MORE OZ JET JOB FOR YOU BUDDY!!!
Don't despair, you can always hock your pc's and buy a YAK40. Then maybe you could find an exceedingly patient instructor to train you as SO's on your own operation. (Private ops of course)Just trying to help you divert some of that pent up anger and frustration towards an endeavour that might actually give you a better quality of life, you know some closure. Keep your chin up prop & Pete, after all you've got each other and you're both still breathing.....right?
ps: When are you two getting married again, do I get an Invite?
Don't despair, you can always hock your pc's and buy a YAK40. Then maybe you could find an exceedingly patient instructor to train you as SO's on your own operation. (Private ops of course)Just trying to help you divert some of that pent up anger and frustration towards an endeavour that might actually give you a better quality of life, you know some closure. Keep your chin up prop & Pete, after all you've got each other and you're both still breathing.....right?
ps: When are you two getting married again, do I get an Invite?
blue-loo,
I was at the SGM too and I don't recall Dixon saying 'Pollution'. I remember an AIPA member expressing annoyance that, apparently, Mr Joyce had said that he didn't want 'mainline attitudes polluting Jetstar'... a point side-stepped by Dixon and/or AIPA President.
Just the facts... as I heard them.
I was at the SGM too and I don't recall Dixon saying 'Pollution'. I remember an AIPA member expressing annoyance that, apparently, Mr Joyce had said that he didn't want 'mainline attitudes polluting Jetstar'... a point side-stepped by Dixon and/or AIPA President.
Just the facts... as I heard them.
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Maybe AIPA need to find out whose side the previous president was really on!! His rapid jumping from one side of the fence to the other certainly raised a few eyebrows!! Could you imagine the president of the ACTU leaving his job then going to work for a company whose employees he used to represent from the other side of the fence??? No conflict of interest there!!!!
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Yeah, dead right SR. One of my old chestnuts this.
And its not just one president but two.
Where will the current Pres be in a couple of years time ?? I don't know, but based on the career progression of a couple of recent incumbents one has to wonder.
And its not just one president but two.
Where will the current Pres be in a couple of years time ?? I don't know, but based on the career progression of a couple of recent incumbents one has to wonder.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Past presidents of pilots' unions being "cherry picked" for company management positions seems to be a "time-honoured" progression of career.
The pre-'89 Ansett was a fine example, however the "Oscar" had to be awarded to "Judas" L. Coysh, who was the primary Industrial Relations Officer for the AFAP for many years before being bought out by Ansett a few years prior to the Dispute, and subsequently placed in charge of F/A's....the fox in the chicken coop (resulting in his subsequent "demise").
Not that it did them an ounce of good having him.
The difference with (most) pilots' unions - which the companies don't seem capable of understanding - is that most pilots are generally anti "union", in the blue collar sense of the inferred definition.
So picking past presidents, I.R.O's, or whatever, to join the company staff, won't give the Company any more insight into the general thinking and future possible direction of the overall pilot body, than it would, had they picked any other line pilot, imo.
Pilot unions are generally far less inhibited (as far as industrial action is concerned), and less predictable than the average union.
In fact, the past office bearers that Ansett chose pre Dispute to advise them, probably worked more in OUR (the pilot body's) favour, than the company's, as these guys' heads swelled to such an extent that they fed the company utter b.s. to try to maintain their positions.
Industrial action is usually undertaken because it is the WILL of the majority of the pilots - not because it is an edict that has been passed on down to the masses by some "executive body", and that must be blindly adhered to.
(BTW, my uncle [the youngest B707 skipper in QF] who was a checkie, and later became a recruiter - was involved in the 1966 strike, in case you're wondering why I have an interest in what's going on with you guys).
The pre-'89 Ansett was a fine example, however the "Oscar" had to be awarded to "Judas" L. Coysh, who was the primary Industrial Relations Officer for the AFAP for many years before being bought out by Ansett a few years prior to the Dispute, and subsequently placed in charge of F/A's....the fox in the chicken coop (resulting in his subsequent "demise").
Not that it did them an ounce of good having him.
The difference with (most) pilots' unions - which the companies don't seem capable of understanding - is that most pilots are generally anti "union", in the blue collar sense of the inferred definition.
So picking past presidents, I.R.O's, or whatever, to join the company staff, won't give the Company any more insight into the general thinking and future possible direction of the overall pilot body, than it would, had they picked any other line pilot, imo.
Pilot unions are generally far less inhibited (as far as industrial action is concerned), and less predictable than the average union.
In fact, the past office bearers that Ansett chose pre Dispute to advise them, probably worked more in OUR (the pilot body's) favour, than the company's, as these guys' heads swelled to such an extent that they fed the company utter b.s. to try to maintain their positions.
Industrial action is usually undertaken because it is the WILL of the majority of the pilots - not because it is an edict that has been passed on down to the masses by some "executive body", and that must be blindly adhered to.
(BTW, my uncle [the youngest B707 skipper in QF] who was a checkie, and later became a recruiter - was involved in the 1966 strike, in case you're wondering why I have an interest in what's going on with you guys).
Last edited by Kaptin M; 28th Feb 2004 at 18:37.
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For all Qantas mainline pilots reading this.
Army of One is right. The company doesn't give two hoots about our careers they just want to reduce cost. That being the case I propose everyone just suits themselves and don't go out of your way to help the company out at all.
More fuel is easier.
Less duty is easier.
Being thorough and taking your time is safer.
Not going to work when you fell tired is safer.
Now who can argue with that.
Until the company sees some value in having us onside they will keep rolling us on everything, so we've just got to stop cooperating. This is all we've got left. AIPA has been proven to be useless and ineffective in the last six months on jetstar/jetconnect/accomodation/MDC. Its time to take matters into your own hands and stop complaining.
Army of One is right. The company doesn't give two hoots about our careers they just want to reduce cost. That being the case I propose everyone just suits themselves and don't go out of your way to help the company out at all.
More fuel is easier.
Less duty is easier.
Being thorough and taking your time is safer.
Not going to work when you fell tired is safer.
Now who can argue with that.
Until the company sees some value in having us onside they will keep rolling us on everything, so we've just got to stop cooperating. This is all we've got left. AIPA has been proven to be useless and ineffective in the last six months on jetstar/jetconnect/accomodation/MDC. Its time to take matters into your own hands and stop complaining.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"Army of One" is, imo. a little outmoded in some of his thinking.
Realistically, aircraft operating costs run far in excess of fuel costs. The company's schedules are built around the maintenance availability - non-availability - of the aircraft.
The ONE thing that really seems to have a DIRECT affect on the beanies, is SCHEDULE.
You can fly according to SOP's til the cows come home..stick on extra gas...fly at higher/lower FL's to burn extra gas....and they really don't care.
After all. we're just bus drivers! (and some 'buses are more expensive to run...burn more...than others.).
But the ONE thing they rely on 'bus drivers to do, is to keep SCHEDULE.
Fu@k with their schedules (= inconvenience to pax), and they squeel like stuck pigs!!
Edit
For those who haven't seen it, here it is:
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money?Ebut this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.
When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One?End I'm not alone!
Realistically, aircraft operating costs run far in excess of fuel costs. The company's schedules are built around the maintenance availability - non-availability - of the aircraft.
The ONE thing that really seems to have a DIRECT affect on the beanies, is SCHEDULE.
You can fly according to SOP's til the cows come home..stick on extra gas...fly at higher/lower FL's to burn extra gas....and they really don't care.
After all. we're just bus drivers! (and some 'buses are more expensive to run...burn more...than others.).
But the ONE thing they rely on 'bus drivers to do, is to keep SCHEDULE.
Fu@k with their schedules (= inconvenience to pax), and they squeel like stuck pigs!!
Edit
For those who haven't seen it, here it is:
I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money?Ebut this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.
When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One?End I'm not alone!
Last edited by Kaptin M; 28th Feb 2004 at 21:26.
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Good stuff Kaptin M, I'd forgotten about that passage.
It's not a recent monologue (from memory?) but certainly has pertinence today in Australia.
I shall cut it there, as I don't want to get on a soap box...
Keep the blue up
It's not a recent monologue (from memory?) but certainly has pertinence today in Australia.
I shall cut it there, as I don't want to get on a soap box...
Keep the blue up
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As is usually the case Lets Go, you are wrong. Can't speak for Pete, but I work for your parent organisation. I believe that Pete does too. Why do you think we are so annoyed at you?
Actions speak louder than words, Lets go. Play the man if you like. But rest assured, almost all QF mainline pilots have the same dim view of you and your comrades.
Actions speak louder than words, Lets go. Play the man if you like. But rest assured, almost all QF mainline pilots have the same dim view of you and your comrades.
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Ahhh, the famous CO document. Re-written with a name change, Gordon replaces Frank.
Except back in the eighties, the pilots of CO were being paid substandard industry wages (about half), were flying aircraft that were of questionable safety (illegal machine shop mods for example - charged with maintainance fraud)) and were watching CO and Texas Air treading a fine line with regards to industrial law - often crossing that line. It was Frank's stated intention to "break those Fxxxxxx pilots". He frequently threatened to sack union reps and occasionally did. His office was gaurded 24 hours by armed security.
Now, are we really going to apply the intent of that document to the situation pilots working for Qantas are now facing?
Except back in the eighties, the pilots of CO were being paid substandard industry wages (about half), were flying aircraft that were of questionable safety (illegal machine shop mods for example - charged with maintainance fraud)) and were watching CO and Texas Air treading a fine line with regards to industrial law - often crossing that line. It was Frank's stated intention to "break those Fxxxxxx pilots". He frequently threatened to sack union reps and occasionally did. His office was gaurded 24 hours by armed security.
Now, are we really going to apply the intent of that document to the situation pilots working for Qantas are now facing?
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Yeh sure prop, as if QF would employ the likes of you, Second Officer Frustration!! "Play the man" Take a good hard look at YOURSELF & your posts over the last few years, you are the master!! Must be a laborious task, lugging all this obsessive loathing of Impulse pilots around in your twisted mind. (even before the QF days, let alone Jetstar) Oh well, guess we all have our peculiarities. QF pilot indeed!! Nice try pal.
Au revoir frustrated little angry man!!
Btw: "Parent organization"? We are all organizations within the Qantas Group of companies (mainline included). Wow!! You seem to have formidable grasp on the workings of my "Parent organization". The basics that a REAL QF pilot would know.
Au revoir frustrated little angry man!!
Btw: "Parent organization"? We are all organizations within the Qantas Group of companies (mainline included). Wow!! You seem to have formidable grasp on the workings of my "Parent organization". The basics that a REAL QF pilot would know.
Last edited by LetsGoRated; 29th Feb 2004 at 14:19.